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Grant Morrison Question

  
 
Model 7
22:13 / 16.02.02
Hello people.

I grew up reading 2000 AD and collecting various comic books like an addict.

Ive lost touch with the whole scene over the past few years, and have a question for you comic headz out there.

I've read that many of the ideas in the Matrix had been lifted from earlier work by Morrison.

Could someone please elaborate, or give me a link for more info.

Cheers.

[ 17-02-2002: Message edited by: Model 7 ]
 
 
sleazenation
22:44 / 16.02.02
That would be the invisiblesthe invisibles Although saying the matrix ripped off the invisibles is kind of overstating the case since the invisibles itself liberally borrows from 101 different places itself
 
 
Mystery Gypt
23:27 / 16.02.02
the only person who ever really claimed the invisibles was lifted for the matrix was grant himself, and it was really only a publicity stunt meant to get fans of the movie interested in the comic. the watchkowskis had that story kicking around for s decade, and neither they nor grant were the first people to use gnostic brain-in-a-vat metaphysics in a sci-fi story.

hasn't stuff like this been covered infinately around here? isn't this issue in the bomb? will barbelith ever stop repeating itself? grumble.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
01:18 / 17.02.02
Christ, he's new, give him a break. It's not like it was stupid question, or that he would have any knowledge about what was discussed on earlier incarnations of the board.
 
 
Model 7
12:42 / 17.02.02
Cheers for the replies people.

I was under the impression that huge chunks of Morrisons' work had been transplanted verbatim into the Matrix. Obviously were talking similarities not copyright infringement here.

Mystery Gypt, Johnny said it well. You really
encourage the growth of your scene with comments like that directed at newcomers (although like I mentioned, Ive been collecting "proper" comics since I was 8, just not in the past decade). Why didnt you just ignore my thread?

Maybe Ill just stick to collecting back issues of 2000AD. The best stuff whips anything Ive read post 1990 anyway.
 
 
Seth
17:34 / 17.02.02
Nice to have you here, Model 7. I would definitely recommend the Invisibles, although some people found it hard to persevere past the Arcadia storyline. Although ephemerat still hasn't lent me the final twelve issues, so I don't know how it ends...
 
 
ghadis
17:37 / 17.02.02
quote: Although ephemerat still hasn't lent me the final twelve issues, so I don't know how it ends...

It doesn't...

Hello Model 7

[ 17-02-2002: Message edited by: Ghadis ]
 
 
Model 7
18:17 / 17.02.02
Hello expressionless and Ghadis.

Im definitely looking forward to reading The Invisibles.
 
 
Seth
18:23 / 17.02.02
I love anyone who spells my name with a lowercase "e." You can stay.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
18:51 / 17.02.02
I never much bought the "Matrix is a rip-off of the Invisibles" when it is a rip-off of so many things. Most of the action stuff is from Hong Kong flicks, there are a LOT of scenes that could have been lifted directly from Star Wars, and on a Jack Kirby list they were going on for a while about how much of it was stolen from Kirby.

While it has some of the same part of ideas in it, how about that we start turning the discussion to how they both draw from the same sort of sources, like Hero of 1000 Faces type stuff?
 
 
Strange Machine Vs The Virus with Shoes
19:55 / 17.02.02
I personly think that the invisibles is best read in a non linear way over time, although i have never read the whole story in one go.
 
 
A
09:29 / 18.02.02
To my mind, there is clearly a LOT of the Invisibles in the Matrix. I could probably overlook the overall thematic similarities if there weren't so damn many specific bits that just seem to have been lifted by the Matrix.

I wouldn't say that it's a straight rip-off, or anything, but the Invisibles was obviously big source material for the Matrix, and, in my opinion, the Wachowskis are doing Grant Morrison (and comcs in general) a disservice by refusing to acknowledge this, especially as it hurts the chances of an Invisibles movie ever being made.

Here's a snippet from an interview with Grant Morrison that outlines his position:

iFUSE: Does it bother you that your superhero comics are vastly more successful than The Invisibles?

GM: That's just pop culture, you know? If I could get The Invisibles in a different medium, it would be gigantic. People watched The Matrix and that's about the same things.

iFUSE: I'd heard you were upset about that movie.

GM: Basically, those guys read The Invisibles and nicked the stuff. The last few months it's been getting all legal and weird. All I want is for them to admit they read the comic!

iFUSE: Are you suing them?

GM: No. I don't want to sue. It's uncool.
In The Invisibles, if I was interested in something I'd always put in the back, "Go read Robert Anton Wilson, go read Terrence McKenna." The Matrix was a great movie. I loved the movie. But comics are dying and we need their help. So what those guys should have said is, "If you like The Matrix, go read The Invisibles, go read some comic books. 'Cause that's where we're getting all of our ideas from."
But they didn't, and it seemed dishonorable to me to not do that.

iFUSE: A lot of movies recycle ideas that first appear in comics.

GM: Because a lot of the younger directors are all reading comics. And they're just, like, taking stuff! It's terrible because comics are dying and we can't afford to let comics die.

The Wachowski's admit to having read it here...

ToiletCommando says: Is it true that you got some of your ideas from the Vertigo comic The Invisibles?
WachowskiBros: We do enjoy that comic, but no.

...but they won't admit that even things like the skyscraper jump and the magic mirror had any influence on the Matrix.

Here's a link to an article about the similarities.

(P.S. I know that many of you have heard this all before and made up your minds already, but clearly Model 7 hasn't, or s/he wouldn't have asked.)
 
 
moriarty
09:29 / 18.02.02
quote:Originally posted by road eyes/PMA/lucky:
I personly think that the invisibles is best read in a non linear way over time, although i have never read the whole story in one go.

Try reading it backwards.

That link you posted, Count Adam, actually cemented my position that there was no rip-off, or at least not enough of one to make a case of it. They both ripped off Lewis Carroll.

So far as helping out the world of comics, I'd guess that the Wachowski Bros. Matrix site has done more for comic book awareness then anything Morrison has ever done.

[ 18-02-2002: Message edited by: moriarty ]
 
 
The Strobe
09:29 / 18.02.02
Am I odd?

I really liked Arcadia; loved the art, and whole sense of it. It just really worked for me. That said, I'm pissed off that I need to plug through Apocalipstick just to get to Entropy... Entropy looks fantastic from a skim through, but I really didn't like the middle issues. Ah well.
 
 
The Natural Way
09:29 / 18.02.02
Gypt: Get you're facts straight. Morrison clearly gave a shit - it wasn't just a publicity stunt (regardless of whether or not it was *true*). Why do comic fans see goddamn "hype" and "publicity stunts" everywhere? Sometimes people just say things and mean them.

Soory if I sound grouchy, but this isn't bloody Newsarama, etc.
 
 
sleazenation
09:29 / 18.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Paleface:
I'm pissed off that I need to plug through Apocalipstick just to get to Entropy...
errr.. but you don't apocalypstick and entropy are in two different trades...
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
09:29 / 18.02.02
was invisibles in dc one million crossover?

as for the skyscraper jump. never thought about that before.

Those thieving basederts. I did like Bound tho. Very sexy in a non-mullholland way.

Cept the ending was a bit tv movie shitty.

anyway I think Morrison ripped off the Tomorrow People.

Seventies crunt.
 
 
Steve Block
11:19 / 18.02.02
The Invisibles weren't in DC One Million in actuality, although in spirit DC One Million was an Invisibles style book, if you ask me. As for people ripping Grant off and the like, just why is the reprint of Zenith book one still held up? And has anyone else read Pictopia by Alan Moore and seen similarities to Animal Man and Flex Mentallo? Sometimes, more than one person chucks a bucket down the well.

[ 18-02-2002: Message edited by: Steve Block ]
 
 
Model 7
12:00 / 18.02.02
Hi all

count adam, that is just what I was looking for. Thanks a lot.

Im sorry if there was an air of naivety about my post, and I now appreciate the topic has probably been discussed to death in this forum.

But like I said, Im not some lame newbie to comics, Im just trying to find info on the best stuff I might have missed over the past 10 years.

Im looking forward to rekindling an affair with an art form I love.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
15:00 / 18.02.02
quote:Originally posted by moriarty:


Try reading it backwards.



That's how I read the third volume. 1v.3 was the first Invisibles single issue I read, come to think of it. I sorta skimmed the first trade.
 
 
kid coagulant
16:26 / 18.02.02
Model 7, welcome to the barbelith. Have you checked out X-Force yet? It's one of the best comicbooks in recent memory, I think. Then there's New X-men, of course, written by you-know-who. It's worth a read.
 
 
moriarty
16:36 / 18.02.02
Welcome aboard, Model 7.

I wouldn't worry too much about repeating topics. New members are popping up all the time (or they will be in another month or so) and sometimes it's worth going over the same ground again with different eyes.
 
 
Steve Block
19:18 / 18.02.02
Is X Force really that good? Is it being collected? I may well have to pick it up, and break an X-ile of about ten years. What's Grant's X-Men like?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:53 / 18.02.02
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steve Block:
Is X Force really that good? Is it being collected? I may well have to pick it up, and break an X-ile of about ten years. What's Grant's X-Men like?

Yeah, X-Force and New X-Men are both being collected in chunks of 4-5 issues as they go along. The first five issues of X-Force is out in trade paperback right now, the title is New Beginnings or something like that. It really is quite good, and I don't think I can really get across why it is good in writing - I think you really have to just read it and experience it for yrself. It's very much unlike anything else being published, really. It's special.

There's a LOT of threads about NXM, and I think you could get a good feel for what it's about by reading those - in a nutshell, New X-Men is like a sci-fi version of the X-Men which is still very action/adventure, but certainly coming from a post-Invisibles Grant Morrison. Grant's trimmed down the cast, eliminated the baggage of continuity so that anyone can read it and not be confused, the X-Men don't wear costumes anymore, but where uniforms.

Instead of being superheroes in the proper sense, they are educators/faculty who also act as a quasi-pacifist rescue group. They are also activists...

Checking out the E Is For Extinction trade that collects the first four issues is a good place to start, but it should be remembered that Grant is keeping the evolution theme in mind, and is gradually evolving and changing the comic as it goes along. It starts off one way, and already it's another.

Contrasting the two, I think New X-Men is more for people who want sci fi/adventure stuff, and just don't want it to look silly. On the other hand, X-Force on the surface looks like a cheesy superhero comic, but the fact that they all look more like superheroes betrays the fact that it's not a superhero comic at all, really - nor is it really for a superhero audience.

[ 18-02-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Rad ]
 
 
Model 7
09:11 / 19.02.02
Gteetz invix and moriarty

X-Force, eh?

Sounds good, I'll look into it.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
17:02 / 19.02.02
my gripe about repetition on the board isnt a slag on new users, its a frustration about how much good work is done in threads which is lost. i continually wish it would be possible for informative and well devleoped threads to be organized and archived as information -- as they were when we were annotating the invisibles. topics that have been covered brilliantly might not fare so well a second time through when brilliant users decide not to bother again. wouldnt it be better if we could keep things as evolving / devloping information pools rather than cycles of repeating content?

Runce: as far as getting my facts straight, i'm not sure what flaw you see in what i'm saying. grant does interviews and says wild shit to create buzz, he's done this at every point in his career, and admits it continually. he LIKED the fucking matrix. i have no idea what newsarama is or what that is supposed to mean about what im saying.
 
 
Steve Block
18:33 / 19.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Gypt:
my gripe about repetition on the board isnt a slag on new users, its a frustration about how much good work is done in threads which is lost.

I archive messages for the invisibles mailing list, and I can tell you, it's hard work. The results, (quick plug) are at invisibilia. I don't know if there is a way of opening the archive up to a search enging on here?

Although I think it freshens things up to get the same question every once in a while.

I do have to agree with the Grant Matrix thing being a bit of a media attention grabber, I mean, otherwise it's a bit churlish, no?
 
 
MJ-12
18:51 / 19.02.02
quote:Originally posted by yawn:
as for the skyscraper jump. never thought about that before.

Actually, Morrison just ripped of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.
 
 
Sandfarmer
15:01 / 20.02.02
There are a couple of scenes in the Matrix that are straigt out of the comic.

Of course there are a couple of scenes in the Invisibles that are straight out of Star Wars.

Of course almost everything Yoda and Obi-Wan say in the first three Star Wars flicks is taken straight (almost word for word) from Carlos Castaneda.

To me, the Matrix is kind of like taking the first four issues of the Invisibles and combining them with the Entropy UK story arch and having it portrayed with lots of bullets and some very bad acting.
 
 
Sandfarmer
15:12 / 20.02.02
Oh and...

1) I really love Arcadia. It grew on me. I've probably re-read it four times.

2) I also liked Bound better than the Matrix. Its a shame that the Wakowski bros will probably keep making films like the Matrix instead of the fun stylish stuff they did in Bound.
 
 
DigitalMafia
21:53 / 11.04.04
This is an old thread, but I was looking around to try and find what the resolution to the whole Matrix/Invisibles psuedo law suit was...Reading the Wachowski interview where they said they read it but NO it wasnt an influence is bullshit. That is just a plain and simple cop-out. Yes everything is stolen or borrowed in the world we live in...but every once in a while someone conjours up something amazing and that would be Morrison and the Invisibles. It makes me sick that these 2 brothers cannot fess up to the obvious influence-man there are entire scenes that shadow the Invisibles...Matix 1 was a great (Great!!!) film-but sadly they lacked the talent to either stop at 1 or pull off 2 more good movies. They took the success of the Matrix and simply Super-Sized it with fries...lame-they shoulda called Morrison for some more direction. I have no doubt, reading the Invisibles, that Grant did not just borrow ideas, but actual lives and bleeds many of the concepts (AOS-ect). Anyways-this is an old unread thread-but for what its worth I will score a matrix revolutions dvd-burn it - piss on the ashes while willing the Wac bros the success they deserve- then re-read the Invisibles & dig on movies that dont pander to the masses to make a buck (a weak shot at Matrix 2 & 3).
DM.
 
 
sleazenation
22:20 / 11.04.04
The resolution was that Morrison didn't pursue any claim through the courts. Maybe he realized that he'd have a hard time proving his case when by his own admission he was surfing the pop-culture zeitgeist using a board that was built out of a compasite of many of his own influences or maybe he wen't out with the Matrix brothers and found them swell guys, maybe something else happened entirely, either way it has become a bit of a non-issue and everyone has moved on.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
23:26 / 11.04.04
I don't like Bound. I did when I first saw it, but second time round I didn't. I know this doesn't add up to much but I'm tired. Goodnight.
 
  
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