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Clowes

 
  

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Matthew Fluxington
18:15 / 03.02.02
Alright, let's do this: let's discuss Daniel Clowes' body of work in detail. So this opens up the thread to anything: Ghost World (the comics, the script, the movie), David Boring, Icehaven (aka, Eightball #22), Caricature, Lloyd Llewelyn, Like A Velvet Glove Cast In Iron, Pussey! and the short stories and bits that have appeared in Eightball over the years. Bring it on - questions, comments, criticism, rants, raves, suggestions on what to start with if yr a novice.

It would also be interesting to discuss how the Ghost World comic translated into film... were you happy with the adaption? Do you think it's better than the original?

[ 03-02-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Fauxhemian ]
 
 
sleazenation
18:57 / 03.02.02
Its predictably different but equally good.

the focus shifts from the disintegration relationship of rebecca and enid, an onto an offbeat romance between enid and Steve Busemi's character (who bears more than a passing resemblence to Robert Crumb).
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:39 / 03.02.02
From the interviews I've read, and from some of the bits that Terry Zwigoff wrote in the published version of the Ghost World film script, the Seymour character is quasi-autobiographical for Zwigoff. The character exists in many ways for Zwigoff to add a lot of his own personal issues, bugbears, and interests into the film - the obsession with 78s, blues, and old jazz being the most obvious example. Seymour's total alienation with the modern world and fascination with the past reflects Zwigoff's as well.

In another interview, Zwigoff takes responsibility for the fact that the Enid character has sex with his character, and that in a lot of ways the Enid character represents an ideal fantasy woman for himself and a lot of people like him, but the character still ultimately rejects him... I realized recently that it's more or less the same thing as the scene in the comic when Enid almost meets Daniel Clowes, but then finds him repulsive/pathetic and backs off.

The act of creating an idealized woman with very realistic character faults (which are in some ways fetishized) that rejects its creator/fictionsuit hits me very close to home, especially since I certainly fall into the camp of people for whom Enid would be the 'dream girl'...

Also, it stands in stark contrast to Grant Morrison's use of the fictionsuit to live out fantasies, whereas Clowes and Zwigoff opt to stick to realism, or rather a negative self-fulfilling prophesy...

[ 03-02-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Fauxhemian ]
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
19:53 / 03.02.02
I think that Ghost World:The Movie was a pretty good adaptation of what was essentially a pretty unfilmable comic. But comparing the two is apples and oranges. Two distinctly different entities w/similar mood and theme that I liked a lot fer different reasons.
As far as Clowes goes, I've been a fan since his Stosh Gillespie work in Cracked when I was just a kid. My appreciation for him has grown steadily as time has gone on and has peaked, as you know, w/the latest Eightball, which I feel is nothing short of a comics masterpiece which reaffirmed my faith in what I want to do at a time when I really needed it.
Arthur Sudnam
 
 
videodrome
09:40 / 04.02.02
Ghost World has stood as my least favorite piece of Clowes' work. It just never grabbed me after the initial episode. I was quite impressed with the film - it became easily my favorite picture of last year. I didn't really consider it in any way vs the source, since they are so different. It is the best representation I've ever seen on screen of the sort of ennui that characterized the way I saw people living in West Texas during high school.

I liked Pussey but have my doubts as to how it stands for people outside the scene of comics in general. Like a lot of Cerebus in the past ten years, Pussey just strikes me as too topical, despite the fact that it's funny as hell. Given that Clowes probably has a lot of readers who are not comics fans, I wonder how this story played to a lot of readers. (tangent: the only self-referential story I've found really satisfying was Dylan Horrock's Hicksville.)

Velvet stands as my favorite Clowes story, despite the fact that it's early and a little thin if you're not willing to buy into it. I am willing to buy it every time I read it, but I go to it now looking for a specific vibe, so I definitely have a bias there.

[ 04-02-2002: Message edited by: videodrome ]
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
09:40 / 04.02.02
[QUOTE]Originally posted by videodrome:
It is the best representation I've ever seen on screen of the sort of ennui that characterized the way I saw people living in West Texas during high school.

I think so too. Over in a music thread, I say something about how I don't really feel like much out there is out there which speaks to my personal experience, and that movie really does... It's one of the few things I can think of that I really feel like it's about 'people like me'.

I liked Pussey but have my doubts as to how it stands for people outside the scene of comics in general.

I've made a fair few Clowes fans out of my friends, but I've never let any of them go near Pussey --- I just don't think it's something that people who aren't immersed in the comics world would really get. I think I'm going to let my best friend, who has become a very passionate fan of Clowes and his work has had a massive impact on her creative life, borrow it sometime soon. She's curious about it, and I'm curious about how she'll respond to it.
 
 
rizla mission
13:28 / 04.02.02
Just popping in to say - read Eightball # 22 yesterday - absolutely fantastic. Must stand as one of the best individual issues of a comic book ever.

Regarding the Ghostworld film, I liked it enough to pay to see it twice in two days.

(But having said that I probably read the comic twice in two days when I first got it).

I suppose it goes without saying that I just love the characters and the story (both versions) - never before or since has any story hit quite so many "I can relate to that" buttons with me. Sad thing is though, everyone else will probably say that as well..

As far as Clowes other work goes, I have to say I'm a really big fan of Lloyd Llewelyn - less serious than his other work, sure - but dead funny, well observed, elegantly done and nails it's pop culture targets every time - it's the perfect example of what a 'funny' comic should be. Still makes me smile on more or less every page after numerous reads.

Thought Pussey was needlessly misanthropic - like a lot of TV comedy at the moment it aims for "it's funny cos it's true" and instead comes out with "it's fucking depressing because it's true".
 
 
videodrome
14:32 / 04.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Rizla Year Zero:
Thought Pussey was needlessly misanthropic - like a lot of TV comedy at the moment it aims for "it's funny cos it's true" and instead comes out with "it's fucking depressing because it's true".


Clowes never quite reaches that level for me - that's pure Chris Ware territory. As much as I love to look at Acme, I haven't read it in ages because I Just. Can't. Bear it.
 
 
rizla mission
14:51 / 04.02.02
I found the same thing when I tried to read him funnily enough.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
16:52 / 04.02.02
I don't know that I really related all that much w/the Ghost World gang. I could appreciate where they were coming from on some levels, but they were a bit negative. Maybe the me of 5 or 6 years ago would've related better.
The Clowes stuff that I relate to the most is his semi-autobiographical work from the first bit of the series (I have no idea where, if anywhere, this stuff is reprinted). And Shamrock Squid.
And while we're on it: does anyone know if all of the extra stuff from the Ghost World issues is collected in Caricature? Because I have pretty much all of the issues of Eightball up to the first installment of Ghost World, the Ghost World trade, and everything from David Boring on. Basically, I'm curious if Caricature will fill all of the holes or whether I need to go in search of all of the issues I'm missing to find everything. Because I want everything!!!
Arthur Sudnam
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:05 / 04.02.02
I think Caricature is absolutely essential for anyone interested in Clowes.

It contains:

"Caricature"
"Blue Italian Shit"
"The Gold Mommy"
"MCMLXVI"
"Like A Weed, Joe"
"Immortal, Invisible"
"Green Eyeliner"
"Gyncecology"
"Black Nylon"

"Blue Italian Shit" and "Like A Weed, Joe" are the quasi autobiographical pieces that I believe you are referring to.

In a few months, a new collection is being released which will contain most of the stray Eightball shorts, including the classic "Art School Confidential" strip. I can't remember the title of the new collection offhand...

I'm pretty sure that when that comes out, virtually everything of note that the man has done to date will be available in bookform, except for Icehaven, but that pretty much stands well enough on its own, and is being carried by a number of mainstream booksellers across the US anyway.

[ 04-02-2002: Message edited by: Flux = fathoms the nine fruits pie ]
 
 
Hush
17:33 / 04.02.02
I have been challenged to take the comics forum forward (by Flux), after suggesting that it is rather too full of nonsense and trivia, and later adding that it is also prone to instant response and lacking in the more thought out view.

For complicated reasons (tendency to equate lycra and trivia, easy cross referencing between Film and Comics) I threw up Ghostworld as an example of something that I felt had been quite ignored in Barbelith; but it was something I have taken seriously, preparing for the film by watching 'Crumb' (Zwigoff's other movie) , and harrassing my local Odeon for not showing the thing at all. So here is my DG Clowes essay.

First Contact
Ghostworld the GN was bought in a local bookstore on sale £2.99 on the principle that a cheap GN is a fair bet. Almost put of by the cover, featuring that stupid batman type mask, and the artwork which in part struck as Charlie Brownish and sepia dull. But I read it, and became absorbed into a story of a stupid sepia dull small town life; I first accepted the form as part of the critique, and then grew to like it, rather in the way that I first hated Eddie Campbell's drawing and then grew to envy it.

I like transcendence in my fiction; my key phrase in all Grant Morrison work is 'There is another world, a better world, there must be'. I like to see things transformed by moral actions, I love surreal extravagance, my favourite Eddy Cambell features The Eyeball Kid. I enjoy the dramatic intensity and high focus of paradigmic conflict.

It is by omitting all of these extraordinary things that Clowes establishes that the banality of the ordinary, and drags it into a negation of authenticity while accurately capturing real life. I am sharply reminded of Doom Patrol 63, where Jane is sent to a hell of ordinaryness, which is our world and also very like Clowesworld, with antidramatic sniping and rivalries as subtitutes for moral context, and random banal disregard for others which arises from understanding. As in Clowesworld, leaving and death are associated. Things are rendered ghostly and insignificant and the key characters are permeated with a sense of unfocussed grief.

Big Decision
Whether or not to share this with my daughter (now 12, loved Zero Girl). If she was keen enough I could get her into the movie. Give her the GN in a low key way, but it didn't mesh with her; I guess Enid and Rebecca are just to grumpy and whiney and unglamorous.

Second Contact
The film is a strange trick. It tells exactly the same story, establishing a very similar mood, with a complete different set of events. My only complaint is that the retro fifties diner seems to have spread to everything; in quite a PK Dick way the present is rendered unreal by being invaded by the past. The girls swear less but are themselves. I need to see it again.

EightBall 22
This seems to be structurally closer to the GW movie than GW comic; spinning a spirally, intereferenced narrative, with quite a few baroque strokes (like the Blue Bunny) and the wilfully self satirising critique. It has the young woman enamoured of the older man theme from the GWmovie, and the same sense of the glueyness of place. If Clowes were to write SF I'm sure he would be tempted by one of those folded time/space stories of prisoners whose every attempt to leave returns them to their comfy cell. Here the forces binding people are as tenuous and compelling as dreams.

I'm a Clowes beginner. I have taken to his work even though it runs against the grain of my general reading. And want more.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:27 / 04.02.02
Jones, I am very interested in hearing your reaction to the less linear, more surreal Clowes material, particularly David Boring and Like A Velvet Glove Cast In Iron.

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who is comparing and contrasting Clowes with Morrison - as they are my two favorite comic creators, I've been thinking a lot about their relationship with one another. I tend to think that in strictly personal terms, they both represent the two sides of myself.
I appreciated the reference to DP #63, by the way. I hadn't thought about the way Grant shows the bleak 'real' world in relationship to Clowes before - nice one.

What were you planning on moving on to next in the Clowes bibliography, Jones?
 
 
Hush
04:36 / 05.02.02
Back issues of 8Ball, Whatever I find in P45; Probably David Boring, as that is well praised, Caricature (because of above advice).

Lets try and post all future cloweswords to this thread, and thereby build a cogent rolling review.
 
 
matsya
04:43 / 05.02.02
I thought that David Boring was particularly linear.
We followed his character through a period of his life. things changed, sure, but there wasn't anything particularly nonlinear about the story or the way it was told. I'd even go so far as to say that even Velvet Glove was quite linear.

They've definitely got surreal touches to them (Glove moreso), though.

Personally I think Clowes is one of the greatest storytellers in the form that I'm aware of. To me he's the comics equivalent of a great short story writer, like Peter Carey or James Purdy. He knows how to engage a reader's interest from the get-go, and he knows how to wrap up a story in a satisfying, but not pandering, way.

m.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
17:10 / 05.02.02
I was inspired to flip through the new Eightball again by this thread and I just realized that Random Wilder was the kidnapper. I am really, really slow on the uptake sometimes.
Arthur Sudnam
 
 
Hush
18:07 / 05.02.02
Matsya (long time no see!) wrote
quote: me he's the comics equivalent of a great short story writer, like Peter Carey or James Purdy

I nearly wrote that the damping distancing field around Clowesworld reminded me of Joyces 'The Dubliners'. And know I have.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:26 / 05.02.02
quote:Originally posted by matsya:
I thought that David Boring was particularly linear.
We followed his character through a period of his life. things changed, sure, but there wasn't anything particularly nonlinear about the story or the way it was told. I'd even go so far as to say that even Velvet Glove was quite linear.


No quarrel. I was just being somewhat inarticulate : I think that Boring is linear, but certainly weird and surreal. Velvet Glove is weird, surreal, and fairly nonlinear - at least in comparison to Ghost World and Icehaven, which is what Jones has been exposed to.

Jones: yeah, I intended this thread to be a catch-all thread for any and all Clowes discussion, just as the "Mainstream Comics News" thread is meant to hopefully take in all of the smaller 'news' threads that get started and clutter the forum. We should probably start all-purpose threads for discussion of Chris Ware, Alan Moore, Adrian Tomine, Sam Keith, Seth, etc...

Updated to say:

Here is a relatively new interview with Clowes. New to me, anyway... here's a little highlight:

quote:
Q: With the character of Enid both in the film and the book: isn’t not wanting to conform a form of conforming?

DC: That’s a reductive or at least the easy sound bite way to characterize Enid. She doesn’t know what she wants. She’d be happy to conform to something that she liked. But she has a sense that’s there is a better way to live than what she sees. But she doesn’t know where it is.


Also: Arthur, I read through Icehaven again, and I'm not entirely sure Random Wilder was one who abducted David Goldberg - there's some implication (Random brings the bags of chips down to the basement, when he tries to kill himself he suddenly remembers something and goes to the basement), but it seems to be intentionally vague. Reading the story with that in mind, I'm not quite sure what it would mean if he was. It would tie things up nicely, and add to Vida's obliviousness in how she perceives Random - Hm. Good eye, though - I didn't pick up on this any other time I've read it, and this afternoon must have been my tenth time reading the story.

Jones: If you prefer the graphic novel format and don't want to 'waste' money, you should note that once the 20th Century Eightball collection is published in May, all of the Eightball run (save for Icehaven) will be available in book form, spread between this volume, Ghost World, David Boring, Caricature, Velvet Glove, and Pussey. All that will be missing will be letters columns, I think..

[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Genius of Love ]
 
 
Steve Block
19:56 / 06.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Flux = Genius of Love:


Also: Arthur, I read through Icehaven again, and I'm not entirely sure Random Wilder was one who abducted David Goldberg - there's some implication (Random brings the bags of chips down to the basement, when he tries to kill himself he suddenly remembers something and goes to the basement), but it seems to be intentionally vague. Reading the story with that in mind, I'm not quite sure what it would mean if he was. It would tie things up nicely, and add to Vida's obliviousness in how she perceives Random - Hm. Good eye, though - I didn't pick up on this any other time I've read it, and this afternoon must have been my tenth time reading the story.

[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Genius of Love ]


I think he is the kidnapper, I caught it when I read the last page. Note the critic calls Random the villain, also note in the discussion of the ransom note that they call it more of a ransom poem, and also note his comments upon hearing the news on telly on page six. There also seems to be someone on the back seat of the car on page 31.

What it would mean to the story, I think that may be the point, although as I've only read this and Ghost World I don't feel that comfortable talking about Clowes' work, but if he is having Random do the kidnapping as some sort of artistic statement, which I think is plausible, then having the kidnappers identity be intentionally vague is some sort of artistic statement on the nature of artistic statements, perhaps when viewed with the critics piece on the last page which also seems ambiguous in intent. Also, there's something in the bad poet not being identified for his 'greatest' work?

[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: Steve Block ]
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
09:02 / 07.02.02
SPOILERS FOR ICEHAVEN!

-


-


Note the critic calls Random the villain,


And of course, you are correct. Quoted directly from that page:

"On the surface we may notice such things as the use of the 'obtrusive neighbor' motif to link our protagonist, Mr. Ames, with his antagonist, Random Wilder." (note: Mr. Ames is the investigator searching for the missing boy)

"What does it say about our author that his 'villain' is a failed poet? Is failure evil?"

hm.

I must say, I feel a bit embarassed that I didn't pick up on any of this the first few times I read the story - I was more fixated on other aspects of the story, other characters and situations. I still remember the bits with Charles (my favorite Clowes character after Enid), Vida, and Violet most fondly. That's my excuse anyway. I'm kinda glad this came up, because now the story has a second life to me, and I'm still trying to figure out what Random means having this be a part of his character that I hadn't considered before.

, but if he is having Random do the kidnapping as some sort of artistic statement, which I think is plausible, then having the kidnappers identity be intentionally vague is some sort of artistic statement on the nature of artistic statements,

I don't get the sense that kidnapping David was meant to be an artistic statement - rereading the story yet again, I notice that after Random is angered by the fact that the ransom note left in the Jon Benet Ramsey case has been studied in 'microscopic detail' he says:

"Is that what it takes to get a careful reading of your work these days? Child murder? Still, it's a fascinating case..."

So, bearing in mind that the ransom note was really a ransom poem, it was just a way to get people to examine his poetry. His vanity has led him to crime! Of course, this backfires horribly, and he is remembered not for his poetry, but for his crime.
 
 
matsya
09:02 / 07.02.02
I'd just like to point out that the word "random" can easily be transformed into "ransom" with a slip of the finger on a querty keyboard.

perhaps this separation-by-a-typo regarding the two words is an intentional connection?

m.

(and of course the word "qwerty" can be mangled into the word "querty" if your touchtyping has been conditioned to instinctively hit "u" after "q" )

[ 07-02-2002: Message edited by: matsya ]
 
 
Steve Block
04:24 / 08.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Flux:
So, bearing in mind that the ransom note was really a ransom poem, it was just a way to get people to examine his poetry. His vanity has led him to crime! Of course, this backfires horribly, and he is remembered not for his poetry, but for his crime.


Yeah, rereading it again, you're right, he just wanted his poetry to get noticed more than make any statement. I wasn't that sold on the Violet segment myself, although I liked the wrap up with how it affected Charles, who came across very well. Clowes can really draw kids.

As for the random/ransom thing, that's an intriguing idea, and makes me wonder about Clowes' choice of the name Random. I was wondering if he was called random because any of us could be him?

[ 08-02-2002: Message edited by: Steve Block ]
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:57 / 14.02.02
Just want to bump this thread up a bit, and to mention a lovely little short story Clowes had published in the first volume of Art Spiegelman and Francis Mouly's Little Lit series, published by Harper Collins. For those of you not aware of the Little Lit series, they are comics made for children by great cartoonists like Clowes, Spiegelman, David Mazzucchelli, Charles Burns, Joost Swarte and Chris Ware among many others...

Clowes' contribution to the first volume is a short which is meant to be a follow up/sequel to Sleeping Beauty. It's really clever and his dark humor is not watered down, but very appropriate for an audience of children.

It's a really beautiful book, and well worth checking out.

An interview with Spiegelman and Mouly about the Little Lit series can be found here on WFMU's Speakeasy archives. Look for December 17th 2001...

[ 14-02-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Rad ]
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
23:16 / 21.02.02
Okay, alright : we mentioned it briefly in another thread, but let's see if we can maybe get this moving. Let's try having a David Boring group reading/discussion. Essentially, we all read a chapter at a time (there's three), and at the end of each we all discuss that chapter in depth before moving on to the next one. I know some of the people who were interested in doing this haven't bought the book yet, but maybe we can try to work it out so that everyone who wants to do this can figure out a date when we'd all have a copy.

What do you say?
 
 
matsya
23:27 / 21.02.02
i'm in. this thread got me reading them again anyway. let's do it. so do we work out a date by which toread each chapter and then keep eyes peeled for threads?

m.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
23:40 / 21.02.02
quote:Originally posted by matsya:
so do we work out a date by which toread each chapter and then keep eyes peeled for threads?


Yeah - but I think we should keep it all contained within this thread, because as Jones says, it's probably better to keep this thread as a longterm running commentary on Clowes - it's easier to archive it that way, too.

I've got the book, I've already read it too. It would be no problem for me to reread it at any point - I guess we just need maybe five people to have it and we can start setting 'read-by' dates, and other people can join in as we go along. I know Steve Block was interested but didn't have a copy yet... c'mon, let's see a show of hands.
 
 
Steve Block
04:54 / 22.02.02
I'm interested, yeah, but I need to buy a copy. It might take me a couple of weeks to get one too, unless I can pick one up in the cruddy shops in Croydon, it'll be next weekend before I can get up to Gosh.
 
 
Steve Block
10:25 / 27.03.02
Is David Boring only available in hardcover? That's all they have up London. If so, I'll pick it up at the weekend. I'd prefer a trade for financial reasons, though.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:30 / 27.03.02
To date, David Boring is only available collected as a hardcover.

You can find the invidual issues of Eightball in which it originally appeared in three parts fairly easily and at a lower cost - they are issues 19, 20, and 21.

I think yr better off buying the hardcover, really.
 
 
Steve Block
14:57 / 01.04.02
Okay, I picked it up. When's the read through starting?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:01 / 03.04.02
Okay - let's get a show of hands as to who's in for the David Boring group reading/discussion...

Either way, I'd like to do this sometime later on next week, because I would like to be involved, but I won't have much time for this sort of thing til next Thursday.
 
 
Steve Block
04:56 / 04.04.02
Well, I'm in, obviously. Next week sounds great. Have to say I've just read it already. Interesting work.
 
 
Sax
08:23 / 04.04.02
Can't we just read Needledick the Bug-Fucker?
 
 
Steve Block
17:45 / 04.04.02
From Sax.:- Can't we just read Needledick the Bug-Fucker?

Is that currently in print in a collection? I couldn't see it over at Fantagraphics
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:12 / 04.04.02
It's going to be in the 20th Century Eightball collection, out later this year. The issue of Eightball in which that one-page gag runs is still in print, too.

Oh, I guess now's a good a time as any to remind people that Caricature is out in softcover this week. I highly recommend it, I think it's essential Clowes...
 
  

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