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Revamps.

 
  

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moriarty
11:54 / 31.01.02
From the thread entitled "ARGH."

"Waiting for Fantastic Four:1234 to be issued here, was surprised to see it coming out in a "Special Edition" along with 3 spandex-filth comics (hulk, captain america and punisher - no matter what you say, I REFUSE to believe that people still read that crap)."

I don't want to pick on Jade here, especially since I've seen so many posts that have the same line of thinking, but how exactly is the Captain America "spandex-filth" but the Fantastic Four 1234 isn't?

The obvious answer would be that one has a better writer than the other. This doesn't really sit well with me. Doom Patrol, New X-Men, Fantastic Four 1234, Animal Man, JLA. Not one of these beloved titles, while under the control of Grant Morrison, ever denied their roots. Each of them had a foot solidly on what went before them. Obviously one of Morrison's skills is to be able to allow those who don't know this past to be able to grasp what is happening regardless. This doesn't mean that his work is divorced from that past.

I've seen a number of people deride the comics history of the above titles, saying that they were never good until Morrison took over. If they were never good, why would Morrison, or any other comic writer for that matter, use those characters or acknowledge their past?

Today's spandex-filth could be tomorrow's classic.
 
 
DaveBCooper
12:19 / 31.01.02
Ridiculous. Are you in some way suggesting that second-tier characters like the Doom Patrol, Swamp Thing, Captain Britain, and Animal Man would be decent if they were written by particular people ? Absolute madness.

Have you been drinking again, moriarty ?

DBC
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
13:02 / 31.01.02
quote:Originally posted by moriarty:
but how exactly is the Captain America "spandex-filth" but the Fantastic Four 1234 isn't?


Not having had my shower yet this morning I find it easy to slip into a suit made of the worst comic-geek stereotype:

"Obviously, my dear Moriarty, because the FF don't wear spandex, they wear uniforms made of unstable molecules."

GET THIS SUIT OFF OF ME!

That's better. Now I'm free to completely agree with what you said up above.
 
 
moriarty
13:10 / 31.01.02
The sad thing is, the unstable molecule aspect of the Fantastic Four crossed my mind as well. Never mind that Captain America wears some sort of chainmail, and the Hulk is usually left wearing pink cut-off jean shorts.

Lord, if I wasn't drinking yet, I will be soon.

One more thing that crossed my mind as an example of this weird snobbishness. It's been said numerous times that certain old-school characters should be put to pasture, like Superman and Batman. Why them and not the X-Men? Surely they're both as old as dirt. What makes them any different in terms of possibility?
 
 
Captain Zoom
13:27 / 31.01.02
I think they should all be put out to pasture and a new crop of spandex filth could take their places. But look at what happens to any new title from the major players. It gets 6 or 7 issues and then fades.

It's hard to dismiss any super-hero title simply because it's a super-hero title. They must be doing something right to have continued to survive in the comics market.

Grant's JLA was great, but I stopped reading it once Waid took over. I only read it sporadically in it's previous incarnations. That's 'cause I like Grant's writing. But someone who hates his writing, but loves Waid's, probably dismisses Grant's JLA as "spandex filth".

X-Men was stellar for a little while under Claremont. The Mutant Massacre storyline still ranks as one of my favourites. Right in there with all the grim and gritty 80's nonsense. And Morrison is mining Claremont's stuff anyway, with the Shi'ar and Phoenix. We shouldn't forget that all the really cool ideas that anyone associates with the X-Men came from Claremont/Byrne. All of them.

Zoom.
 
 
DaveBCooper
13:47 / 31.01.02
Oh, no, Superman and Batman should be thrown away because… uh, well, they’re not so cool and trendy, apparently. Never mind the fact that without these characters it’s questionable that there’d ever have been an X-Men comic. Nope. Get rid of these old-timers and let’s have Re-Gex and Fathom and Adolescent Radioactive Black-belt Hamsters comics instead. Much better.

Zoom : all the good ideas are Claremont/Byrne ? Are ya sure ? What, even the idea of the X-Men team itself ? Didn’t that come a touch earlier ? ;-)

DBC
 
 
Captain Zoom
14:33 / 31.01.02
Alright, alright. That occurred to me while I was writing it too. I'll qualify it then. Magneto and the team itself were not ideas of Claremont's. But look at all the other stuff. Phoenix, the morlocks, the Imperial Guard and the Shi'ar, Wolverine for god's sake. I don't know if it's just my age, and maybe there's people out there who are saying all the good x-ideas came from Lobdell, but it seems to me that saying that X-Men before Grant wrote it is shit is like saying water is shit until is becomes snow.

Did that make any sense?

Zoom.
 
 
DaveBCooper
14:52 / 31.01.02
Yeah, all fair comments... and I'm amused at the idea that Lobdell was responsible for the best ideas ! People nowadays, no respect for history...

DBC
 
 
sleazenation
19:45 / 31.01.02
It all depends on the writer-- a talented writer could tell a fantastic story with the most prosaic character (yeah like anyone would have read blak orchid if it wasn't a writer of gaiman's calibre involved)

Yes Chris claremonts run on x-men was quite good, but it was never really great - Claremont turned the x-titles into a soap of sunset beach complexity there were lost loves clomes twin brothers and no-one ever died for long - it waws fun, it was better than a lot of other shit out there, but it wqasn't really great. Now I'm nt about to pretend that grant's run on the new xmen has been the best thing since sliced bread but again its been head and shoulders above most other stuff coming out of marvel and DC (NB I'm just talking superhero stuff here - there is a lot better stuff being done outrside of superheroes).

I'd be pissed off off if grant;'s xmen was packaged with say the hulk the same way i'd be pissed off if i had to buy robert heinlein to get the latest philip k dick .
 
 
DaveBCooper
14:06 / 01.02.02
On a point of pedantry, though : Didn't the sentinels originate in the Thomas/Adams period?

Oh, now I hate myself...

DBC
 
 
sleazenation
14:11 / 01.02.02
I thought the sentenles orginated in the slee kirby run (could be very wrong) But certainly the appeared well before claremont was on the scene
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:19 / 01.02.02
quote:Originally posted by moriarty:
Why them and not the X-Men? Surely they're both as old as dirt. What makes them any different in terms of possibility?


Well, I'll make the argument in favor of the X-Men: It's because it's been established that there need not be any one character who NEEDS to be in the X-Men, so the comic can from time to time be completely reinvented right on down to being a set of completely new characters and still *be* the X-Men. Single-character comics can't do that, unless they pull a Kyle Rayner Green Lantern sorta deal.

It didn't take much to get Zoom out of retirement, eh?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
14:30 / 01.02.02
Zoom's last post in this thread was before he posted his 'stepping back' thread.
 
 
moriarty
15:21 / 01.02.02
And so far as my dim memory goes, Len Wein created Wolverine and introduced him to the X-Men.

Agreed, Flux. That's always been the charm of the X-Men, for me. And grant is continuing the tradition by introducing new memebers. I just wish that more characters were cast aside. Too many live mutants, Genosha notwithstanding.

I'm not really putting this out there as an argument, but because I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. Essentially, should a comic that's crap be allowed to flourish in the hopes that it will once again be good some day? The X-men were hideous for years before they just started getting good again. Remember when you said that both the big two should raze most of their product to the ground and start fresh, Flux? Well, how would you go about deciding what deserves the culling? Almost every series that has had any good spots has had loads of bad ones, too. Or, would it even matter if these toys were not available to play with, so long as the cretors had any comic to put their views across?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:36 / 01.02.02
[QUOTE]Originally posted by moriarty:
And so far as my dim memory goes, Len Wein created Wolverine and introduced him to the X-Men.

Yes, that's right. Of the "All New Different X-Men" from Giant Size X-Men, Claremont and Cockrum only created Thunderbird, Colossus, Storm, and Nightcrawler. Sunfire and Banshee were both from the original X-Men run...

Remember when you said that both the big two should raze most of their product to the ground and start fresh, Flux? Well, how would you go about deciding what deserves the culling?

I think that what I would do would cancel most of the ongoing series, all of the ones that are either selling poorly, or are redundant. A good example: Uncanny X-Men is a totally redundant comic in light of New X-Men, and even X-treme X-Men. It doesn't have any real niche to fill, it's just there - a comic which has no direction and a cast comprised of all the characters leftover from when Morrison and Claremont chose their line-ups. There's no good reason for that comic to be published, other than that it sells a bunch of copies because it is called Uncanny X-Men.

Instead of abandoning the characters who've had their series cancelled, they would have one or two miniseries per year, and make them events by putting some advertising money behind them. It makes more sense to put out four really great issues of the Avengers in a year, and then repackage it as a trade paperback, rather than pump out 12 mediocre issues per year, with diminishing returns. It would also fix the problem of fill-in artists and missed deadlines, because this way, they can insist that all of the issues are in the can before they release the first issue.

Also, focusing on miniseries would likely attract better talent to the properties, because a talented person may want to do one Captain America story, but they may not want to commit to the character full-time. I think that you have to acknowledge the limitations of some characters - some characters really don't merit a monthly series.
 
 
Mr Tricks
19:09 / 01.02.02
quote:
Flux said:
. . . It makes more sense to put out four really great issues of the Avengers in a year, and then repackage it as a trade paperback, rather than pump out 12 mediocre issues per year, with diminishing returns. It would also fix the problem of fill-in artists and missed deadlines, because this way, they can insist that all of the issues are in the can before they release the first issue.


One key reason this doesn't happen has to do with how the publishing industry runs... The Comics really don't make any money... After the costs of Printing & paper (both continually rising) as well as paying talent & distrabution... the individual comics themselves make next to no money...

if publishers had to rely on the profits from sales they would be sunk... such has been the case for many an indi...

Publishers, especially the big ones make there money from....A D V E R T I S I N G
The stats that we all look at in terms of what comic sells better than another are collected & then handed over to an advertising dept. They then set up Ad packages to sell to the ad dept. or ad agencies of stuff like gummy bears or whatever...
Those agencies buy their ad space in bulk... no ones saying "I want my nestle crunch ad to appear on page 5 of New X men but on page 23 of spiderman". So it's in the interest of companie to print tons of monthly comics so their numbers go up & they can charge a few extra dollars because that nestle crunch ad will also appear on "Deadpool: agent of weapon X" even if no one reads it.
The fact that distribution for comics (as opposed to magazines) is set up in such a way that the retail outlet can't "return" what thay don't sell skews those numbers even more. For a magazine, the % of "returns" is a major factor for distrabution which in turns effects their advertising power. Since the comic outlet keep whatever they order the advertisers only see the stats as if 100,000 copies of "deadpool: agent of weapon X" were sold... even though only 23% of those comics where actually bought by comic readers (the intended target of advertisers) & the rest will be in the quarter bins by next summer...

thus the shelves are crammed with redundant titles...

the TPB is where a publisher can actually make money directly from the profits of sales... as the costs of pre-press are covered & the price can more accurately cover the costs of printing, distrabution, and those piddly royalties

PS: The percentages & numbers as well as the titles I used were just randomly chosen to illustrait the point.... apologies to anyone who purchased & enjoyed Deadpool: Agent of weapon X no offence intended

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: PATricky ]
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:30 / 01.02.02
Well, you've got a point, and I can't argue with that math --- other than that it would be in the best interest of the company to take a risk and actually try to make a profit off the comics, which isn't an impossible thing to do.

I'm also not calling for the cancellation of all books on a monthly schedule - just have that roster cut down to about ten Marvel monthlies. They could boost the number of ads too... ideally, they could work out a way to have 22 uninterupted pages of story with 22 or more pages of ads in the back.

I've found that most people who are not used to comics find internal ads breaking up the pages to be very alienating, and get confused by them, and repulsed by how ugly the ads in comics are. I think that anything that could possibly alienate a mass audience should really be brushed to the side...
 
 
sleazenation
19:52 / 01.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Flux = Sleeps w/ Electric Guitars:
[QUOTE]

Yes, that's right. Of the "All New Different X-Men" from Giant Size X-Men, Claremont and Cockrum only created Thunderbird, Colossus, Storm, and Nightcrawler. .


Sorry but all these characters first appeared in GS Xmen 1 which was written by Len Wein - Claremont ook over X-men at 94 IIRC he killed Thunderbird and reated many cool stories but didn't create any of the new xmen
 
 
sleazenation
19:59 / 01.02.02
on the ads sales front i found it incredibly depressing to find how few ADS were actually placed in DC comics - there were far more house ads in four women (for example) than there were from paying advertisers. This just serves to underline the drepressing fact: many DC comics - even some of the best that they are publishing, are not making enough on advertising to support themselves.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:17 / 01.02.02
Ah, the worst thing is that I knew that was by Len Wein and Dave Cockrum - I just forgot about that factoid.

I'll have my "X-Men geek" resignation on your desk tomorrow...

Some fairness to Claremont: he did come up with Kitty Pryde, Moira MacTaggert, Rogue, the Hellfire Club, Emma Frost, the New Mutants, Morlocks, Proteus, Gambit, the Shi'Ar, The Imperial Guard, the Phoenix, Rachel Summers, and Mystique.
 
 
sleazenation
09:57 / 02.02.02
again - not that i'm wishing to diss you in any way, but are you sure Rogue and mystique were created by claremont? I thought rougue at leat first appeared in the Avengers (doesn't mean she wasn't written by claremont - just that i'm uncertain to her origin...)
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
09:57 / 02.02.02
If memory serves, Rogue's first appearance was in an Avengers annual written by Chris Claremont. She was a junior member of The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants.

I am almost certain that Chris Claremont created Mystique...
 
 
Mr Tricks
09:57 / 02.02.02
Clairmont did write that Avengers annual (#10) drawn by Micheal Golden!!!

Talk about geek Power!!!

Mystique appeared along with Avalanch, Pyro & destiny in the days of future past storyline...

From what I recall, Clairmont seems to rely heavily on his penciler's for stuff as well, thus while with Byrn they ROCKED... with COCK-rim, the best they got up to was an ALIEN rip off...

his stuff was caught in perpetual tail-spin/re-hash after the mutant massacre... with a few notable blips such as Genoshaw, the Reavers & that business with the Dire Wraiths... (even those are debateable)

I agree with some of the add treatment...
was a time when there would be a footnote reading "continued after next page" before an ad break. I think the ABC line has it right with their ads located in the back end of the book...

Also there's a limit to page counts vs. print costs... Comics are printed at that size because the presses can use "overage" paper from other publications like the larger sized magazines... And pages are broken down into 16 page "signatures" which is why comics come in 32, 48, 64, 80 pages etc....

um... have we veired off topic here?
 
 
bio k9
09:57 / 02.02.02
I'd love to see Marvel trim its titles down to about 8 or so. If that was all they published I'd probably buy them all every month. Characters like Dr. Strange and the Hulk don't really need their own titles do they? Its cool to have background characters; Spiderman swinging past Dr. Stranges house, the Silver Surfer showing up every couple of years or so. Is there really so much going on in Thors life that he needs his own title? Isn't his spot in Avengers enough? Do we need to see Captain Americas every adventure? Even the CapWolf ones? Just knowing that hes out there, doing something to keep America safe and secure is cool with me and it keeps writers from having to look deep inside Steve Rogers soul to see what makes him tick. I don't care what makes him fight the good fight, hes suppose to be a stone faced icon and we're suppose to view him from the outside.

And while I'm ranting let me just add that there are far too many characters in the Marvel Universe. I swear to god, 65% of the population has some kind of super power.
 
 
Patrick Neighly
01:47 / 03.02.02
Sorry but all these characters first appeared in GS Xmen 1 which was written by Len Wein - Claremont ook over X-men at 94 IIRC he killed Thunderbird and reated many cool stories but didn't create any of the new xmen

It's true that these characters first appeared in GSX 1 and were written by Len Wein (although the characters themselves were created by Dave Cockrum actually). But, as with Wolverine, the relevant point is that although Claremont didn't originate the characters, he did originate the characterization. For all practical intents and purposes, Claremont may as well have created these characters.

As for people dying and coming back ... this didn't really occur in Claremont's run but came afterward, right? Claremont nearly had a heart attack when editorial brought Jean Grey back to life for X-Factor. Otherwise, who died and came back - not counting for purposes of dramatic irony (e.g. Fall of the Mutants, Seige Perilous, Storm regressed to childhood).

On the cutting the number of comics the majors put out - yeah! Anyone remember when characters only had a single series?

Patrick
 
 
Billy Corgan
03:18 / 03.02.02
I think Marvel should cut down its line so they only publish this line up of the best and brightest among their characters:

Fantastic Four
The Uncanny X-Men
The Amazing Spider-Man
Moon Knight
Guardians of the Galaxy
West Coast Avengers
Daredevil, The Man Without Fear
She-Hulk
Peter Porker, The Spectacular Spider-Ham
Cable
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:58 / 03.02.02
Billy, I think you're maybe forgetting Alpha Flight and Power Man/Iron Fist...
 
 
moriarty
14:18 / 03.02.02
Sad-but-True fact. If I could write any one Marvel title, it would be Power Man and Iron Fist. Ask Captain Zoom.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:27 / 03.02.02
I've got to know: what on earth would you do with those guys?

When I was a kid, I had a weird fascination with Alpha Flight. There was this weird mystique about them, surprising for a bunch of generic brand x superheroes from Canada...
 
 
moriarty
14:47 / 03.02.02
I've found with alot of people that they have strange fascinations with second-tier characters. I had a thing for Alpha Flight, too, but that may be because I am Canadian. I even went so far as to draw up a short comic where Puck gats his legs broken by Alan Thicke at a celebrity hockey tournement.

I have no idea why I liked PM/IF. I was too young to understand their 70s exploitation film origins, but I liked them so much that I was actually upset that they weren't a part of the Secret Wars. How sad is that?

I read this great book of essays on exploitation flicks of the 70s, and one of the recurring thoughts brought up was that as bad as the films may have been, for many people seeing a non-traditional action hero (black, asian, and/or female) on the big screen was something to inspire awe. Years later, the actors in these films are highly regarded by a great many people. I wanted to do something where the characters are older, wiser, and though they didn't make much of an impact on the world at large, within their neighbourhood they're not only respected, but they can make a real difference. Jackie Brown with Kung-Fu and a Think Globally/Act Locally mentality.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:08 / 03.02.02
quote:Originally posted by moriarty:
I had a thing for Alpha Flight, too, but that may be because I am Canadian.



I always thought that region-specific characters/groups like Alpha Flight (what does that even mean, by the way? That is such a weird name for a group of superheroes...it sounds more like a prog rock band) and the West Coast Avengers were incredibly silly.

It's hard to imagine all that much of a need for superheroes in Canada, especially when the US has so many that surely y'all could borrow some of ours. I'm sure that the Fantastic Four would be happy to give the Canadians a helping hand, y'know?

Plus, you've got to love the weird Canadian stereotypes, eh?

[ 03-02-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Fauxhemian ]
 
 
sleazenation
15:46 / 03.02.02
Surely World governments would react to superheroes the way they have with nuclear weapons and anything else that gives their country some small level of prestige - they'd want their own - no matter if they couldn't compare with the bigboys they's want something to show. Therre will always be second stringers
 
 
moriarty
16:28 / 03.02.02
That may be true in a general sense, Sleaze, but the more I think about it, the more it doesn't really apply to Canada. In comparison to most industrialized countries, we have very little invested in the military and homeland security. When anyone tries to invade us we usually just beat them back with our bare hands. A fully formed, government sponsored Canadian Superhero team is one of the stupidest concepts ever. I can understand one government sponsored superhero (ala Captain Canuck!), or a team of independent heroes, but Alpha Flight is way off base.

[ 03-02-2002: Message edited by: moriarty ]
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:44 / 03.02.02
I just can't imagine the Canadian people tolerating it... There would be soooooo many protests against that sort of thing.
 
 
sleazenation
16:58 / 03.02.02
well there would be protests to get 50% french speakers
 
  

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