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The death of Bruce Wayne?

 
 
Professor Silly
17:48 / 30.01.02
During the last several weeks a story has been running through the Batman books, a story called "Bruce Wayne: Murderer?". Part seven, in Batman 599, came out today, and the story is beginning to show its overall form. This issue has the hero in prison, just like in Watchman.... Watching Wayne deal with having a secret identity in prison serves to show his strengths, and how he prioritizes.

I think this might prove the most pivotal, influential and powerful Batman story to appear in the core titles since...well, who knows. Even the various spin-offs (Batgirl, Birds of Prey,.) seem designed to build an overall temporal image of Batman in his eleventh year as a crime-fighter.

It seems to me there might not be a Bruce Wayne in the twelfth year...but that's just me guessing.

So, anyone else already reading this...or is it too "mainstream" for my fellow invisibles....

All hail Discordia!
 
 
Mr Tricks
19:04 / 30.01.02
Really dug the start of this storyline...

haven't picked up the crossovers.... But flipped through this most recient issue...

there COULD be some setup for the death of Bruce Wayne...could this be somewhat tragic? or might it be the thing that ultimately free's him from the ghosts of his past?

& what's up with his Bodyguard?
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
20:34 / 30.01.02
I have liked the Batman books since they finished up No Man's Land, and the mystery aspect of the story has been very well done. I'm not buying any extra books for it...

And I think that instead of KILLING Bruce Wayne, it may be a way to bring him back...

^_^
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
01:58 / 31.01.02
Oh, I see that DC is back to the same old Knightfall/Death of Superman tricks as a way of competing in the marketplace. Wow, sure didn't see that one coming...
 
 
Professor Silly
03:14 / 31.01.02
No no no...not like the Knightfall. I don't mean they'll kill Batman...just that they might reveal to the world that Batman "is" Bruce Wayne, destroying the whole secret identity thing.

And unlike the Knightfall fiasco, they haven't really hyped this storyline much at all.

But then I'm used to seeing you judge things you haven't read, Flux...like you're the clone of Knowledge or sumthin'.
 
 
The Natural Way
06:45 / 31.01.02
Admit the guilt, Flux.

But Knowledge? No, no, no: Knowledge reads and then gushes like a rainstorm. And he seems to read anything....
 
 
Mr Tricks
19:02 / 31.01.02
I figure they may just "kill" the Bruce wayne Persona... "Killed in a prison esacpe attempt" or something...

Then he'll just be batman, full time...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:22 / 31.01.02
Admit what? I didn't really pass judgement on the quality of the story, just that it is another attempt for DC to create an event story that will be mentioned in newspapers et al, and then leave them in a situation that wrecks the DCU version of the character for the forseeable future.

I can't see why killing the Bruce Wayne alter ego, or revealing to the world that Bruce Wayne is Batman would in any way NOT undermine the basic point of Batman, what could be gained from that story other than short term benefits for the writers, or how this in any way would appeal to a larger audience who

a) appreciate the Batman character for what that character is, and a big part of that is the alter ego of playboy Bruce Wayne

and

b) children who don't give a fuck about Bruce Wayne and just want to see Batman fight the bad guys.
 
 
The Natural Way
07:20 / 01.02.02
Flux, I was being sarcastic.

But I do remember someone saying something about how they "didn't really like The Invisibles" before they'd read half of vol 2 and all of vol 3.....

Can I hold you now? In a loving way?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
11:47 / 01.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Sgunnice Runcheon 'n':

But I do remember someone saying something about how they "didn't really like The Invisibles" before they'd read half of vol 2 and all of vol 3.....


Yeah, but I'd say that was a pretty fair reaction considering that the comic comes off as a bunch of gibberish if you don't have the complete story sitting right in front of you --- and all the good stuff happened towards the end, AND the art was significantly better in vol 2 and 3...
 
 
The Natural Way
12:30 / 01.02.02
But it never came off as "gibberish" to me.

And I'd be very unlikely to dismiss something as gibberish if I'd read less than half of it and I otherwise really dug the writer.

Yr not going to convince me you were silly to prejudge it, you know. In a few of yr posts, you sounded very sure you had the whole thing sussed....

But do you care? Do I?


No, I only care about holding you.

GOD! I'm beginning to sound like Laila, or Chrome, or someone. Must stop w/ the gently perverted posting...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:38 / 01.02.02
Well, I can only speak for myself: Until I put forth the initiative to read the rest of the series, after I gave up on it following the beginning of Vol 2, the series alternately bored and confused me, with occasional bits that I liked. I was between 14-16 when all of those comics were first released, and I think that being a bit older has improved my take on them... Still, going back, and rereading the entire series from start to finish as I have been doing, I still don't care much for Volume 1, although I understand it faaaaaaar better than I did back then. It's pretty good, but it doesn't seem as fully realized as Volumes 2 and 3... and that does have a lot to do with a lot of the art in Volume 1 being very drab... What can I say, I don't like Jill Thompson at all.
 
 
Professor Silly
15:46 / 01.02.02
Never underestimate the power of sarcasm...

hey--who knows how this will play out...the story may end with no significant statis quo change in the books.

But let's review the last year within the Batman books: Gotham got rebuilt by Wayne and Luthor, Com. Gordan was shot and retired from the police force.
Do these things "undermine the basic point of Batman" or in anyway serve any point beyond building further into the mythos of the character? One could argue that Gordon represents the most stable and longlasting supporting character for Batman (sure Alfred has been around since the beginning, but Bruce wasn't Batman during those years...and Alfred has left and returned several times).

Apparently a similiar thing has happened over in the Superman books (President Luthor seems to have learned the Clark Kent-Superman connection)...the difference between this and the "death" storyline is that DC didn't hype this story up beforehand...and since both DC and Marvel now have a "no overprint" policy, we may have stories that will prove most collectible (if the stories truely have a long-lasting impact).

Perhaps Batman's actions will end up distancing him from the JLA even more, isolating him from the other heroes...
Or perhaps Wayne will just "disappear" for awhile, only to return in the future...

That's what makes this story seem so cool--it's a first-class mystery, and I for one have little idea how it will play out.


On a related note, Marvel plans on printing the "final" Hulk story...and might do the same for other heroes (such as Spider-Man and X-Men). Couple this with their decision to print Wolverine's origin, and I think we might be seeing a drastic change in how the "big guns" of Marvel and DC approach their characters. Who's to say that Batman might enjoy the benefits of a secret identity for the first twelve years of his career, afterwards becoming Batman full time? As he gets older, living the double-life would only get harder. Turning back to the Hulk: will knowing his origin as well as his final fate diminish the impact of the continuing stories that occur in the "present time?" If Spider-Man's fate is to die in battle, will it make his current exploits seem worthless?

But again, all of this is just me speculating.

thoughts?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:12 / 01.02.02
I think they are thinking only of things in the short term, and working on only pleasing hardcore fans and comic nerds. They are taking established characters, and making them confusing and unrecognizable to casual fans, and making it especially difficult for young kids to try the comic.

I think that Grant's take on New X-Men is the proper lead to follow: take the characters, present them in a way which appeals to the widest potential audience, and put them in stories which don't rely on backstory, and are open ended. The X-Men used to impenatrable, and now Superman/Batman/Spider-Man/Hulk are in its place. This is inexcusable - those are the most recognizable characters in the industry, Marvel and DC really should be responsible enough to keep those characters accessable...

This is what Ted Turner means, his companies really can do much better things with DC's properties than they can. They have no idea how to 'maximize potential', and by all rights should be surrendered to people who can and will.
 
 
Professor Silly
16:53 / 01.02.02
I think you misunderstand GM's agenda with the X-Men.

He's planning on taking them as he found them, and slowly transforming them into something never seen before. Before, they were mutant superheroes...he's turning them into a pacifist world power that has more in common with an organization like Amnesty International than with the Avengers. I for one like what he's doing...but will people find it easier or harder to jump in as his stories develop? Already the look of his book has completely left the iconic 70's image of flashy costumes. Might not one argue that dropping Wolverine's costume (ranked number two best costume ever, after Spider-Man, by Wizard) constitute the exact thing you're complaining about?!?

so apparently you represent the conservative section of comic readers...what does anyone ELSE think of this whole "reveal the past and future of our heroes" issue?

Will you read a comic that reveals the final fate of Spider-Man...and how is this different from retelling an origin?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
17:13 / 01.02.02
The Xmen as Amnesty International?

hope not. so dreary. gimme camp x-men over camp x-ray baby.

As for Invisibles penetrability:

I inducted a young 17 year old office junior sort into the 'fold' round about the end of volume 2 and fed her on a diet of randomly selected issues from said volume.

Suffice to say it blew her gypsy.

Oh, and her dad (estranged) was the spit of Mister Six.

And she fancied Ragged Robin. (specifically her arms, by bolland on the cover where their speech is overwritten - go look, v nice)

These facts still give me the horn.

And yes, I'm definely pre-jack.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:15 / 01.02.02
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chevy Fenderson:
I think you misunderstand GM's agenda with the X-Men.

He's planning on taking them as he found them, and slowly transforming them into something never seen before.


Yes, but that is in the spirit of the comic, and the concept of the series. As I said in a different thread, one of the advantages the X-Men has over its competition is that so long as the basic concept is in place, it does not rely on any characters to always be there, it is a property which adapts and heh, mutates to suit the times. The only character which can be argued as being essential to the franchise is Wolverine, and the comic has existed and done well without him at different points. This is a very different situation from nearly every other successful superhero property in the industry, and a big part of why the comic has been selling consistently at the top of the industry since the late 70s. It adapts, because it is designed to do so.

On the other hand, characters like Superman, Batman, Spider-Man - they are icon characters who are forever frozen in time, and will always be most successful when that fact is respected. It's like the Flintstones, the Simpsons, Mickey Mouse, Bugs Bunny, etc... They are already defined as characters. Continuity betrays the charms and virtues of the characters.

Might not one argue that dropping Wolverine's costume (ranked number two best costume ever, after Spider-Man, by Wizard) constitute the exact thing you're complaining about?!?

Wolverine is a bad example - the guy has switched up his look several times over the last twenty years, they've made his look outside of his costumes as recognizable as his costume since the late 70s, enough so that he could appear in the film version (which is the largest audience Wolverine has ever had) and still work well as Wolverine without questions being asked. He doesn't need the old costume. It's not essential to his character.

And nevermind those Wizard kids. They are the problem, and should be ignored at all times.


so apparently you represent the conservative section of comic readers...what does anyone ELSE think of this whole "reveal the past and future of our heroes" issue?


Quite the opposite: I believe in advancing the industry and getting the comics in the hands of actual human beings rather than an element which wants to hoarde the characters all to themselves, and spoil them for the rest of the world. I believe that *they* are the conservative element, the people who want to keep the industry suffocating and small, having the characters age with them rather than move on to other things.

All this 'final fate' and 'origin' shit... no one except hardcore fanboys cares about this stuff, the very people who are crushing the industry and keeping everyone else out.

I'd rather see the big iconic properties maximized to appeal to the widest audience, and have them be the cash cows which put enough cash into the pockets of the people who publish them so that they can move on and invest the revenue into publishing and marketing non-superhero, non-genre related comics to the mass media audience.

I maintain that a big part of why superhero comics sell less and less every year is because well, maybe people don't want superheroes anymore. Why is that not an obvious thing to major publishers... sure, there's lot of reasons why most people won't touch superhero comics, but it doesn't mean you can't sell COMICS to them...
 
 
Professor Silly
17:44 / 01.02.02
I can appreciate your point on the iconic nature of Batman, Spider-Man, etc. And I agree that one can point to different periods of Wolverine's career by the threads he wears (Frank Miller changing to the browns, Jim Lee changing it back to blue and yellow, or even the "Patch" persona in his own series).

However, even in the other example mentioned we can see development and "mutation"...
the early Bug Bunny cartoon look very different from the icon image we all know.
Spider-Man had the alien costume era that produced on of the most popular villians in his history.
The iconic Hulk is green and rampaging...yet he was originally grey.

Only time can determine what works and what doesn't...if the story flops (like the whole Joker: Last Laugh stupidity) then it will soon be forgotten.
The original Wolverine mini-series introduced the radical idea of honor into his character...and this has infuenced every Wolverine story since.

And I agree with you about Wizard--I thought Dan Jurgan's run on Spider-Man was thoughtful and entertaining...but Wizard kept going on and on about the whole clone thing, and got Marvel to retract the story-theme. Pooh pooh on them!!!

Finally I can appreciate you candor on where you think comics should go...now here's mine.
I purchase those books that have good writing...like GM's New X-Men, Ellis' Planetary, and I think that the crime/mystery approach the current writers of Batman has taken ranks up there. It really harkons back to the spirit of the character...solving crimes with detective work and physical skill. As long as the industry continues to employ better and better writers, the product will hold up over the longterm. The Orson Wells of comics might be just around the corner...and if the companies stay focused on numbers of books sold only, this hypothetical master-creator might not have the opportunity to create a masterpiece appreciated by the general public.

This does not diminish, or even contradict your thoughts...so don't get defensive. I just want you to understand where I'm coming from.

I'm open to the idea of a "final fate" storyline, so long as it's pulled off with good writing. If they whip out a cheesy piece of pooh just for the sake of doing something different, or for money, then the whole idea becomes repugnant to me. But if it's good (like Origin has been so far) then I say kudos!

so, we have the opinions of myself and Flux...what does anyone else think?
 
 
moriarty
17:45 / 01.02.02
As I said in a different thread, one of the advantages the X-Men has over its competition is that so long as the basic concept is in place, it does not rely on any characters to always be there, it is a property which adapts and heh, mutates to suit the times.

In theory. I once had an argument with my friends at around the time that Claremont was going to be taking the reins of the X-Men again. They were very excited, and wanted to see "The Dream Team" represented, with Kitty pryde and Nightcrawler in the mix. In short, the team of their youth. I felt, like you, that the appeal of the X-Men is that it mutates. Unfortunately, that was at a time when the stakes weren't so high, the X-men weren't horribly popular, and they could get away with change. I'm glad to see, after nearly ten solid years of stagnation, that this has been rectified. I guess that's what X-Treme is for.

It adapts, because it is designed to do so.

Not necessarily. The revamp of the X-Men by Wein, then Claremont, had that distinction. Nearly 100 issues of the X-men passed before the mutation of the X-men began. And that was because of low sales. In fact, the current incarnation of the X-Men is one of the only times I ahve ever seen major changes on a title that isn't a low seller.

On the other hand, characters like Superman, Batman, Spider-Man - they are icon characters who are forever frozen in time, and will always be most successful when that fact is respected.

One of the most striking differences between the two companies is that of continuity. Spider-man is in fact in the same camp as the X-men, and the rest of the Marvel universe. Change happens. It's been apparent since the beginning. So, in theory, I wouldn't lump Spidey in with the other two. The problem Spidey has is the same problem the X-Men has had. Popularity. You can't change Spider-man without alienating people who know him only as an icon ("What do you mean Spider-man got married?"), but the whole purpose of the Marvel universe was to have a setting where the past does affect the present, and change is inevitable. It's a balancing act that I'm sure they never dreamed that they would have to achieve.

(which is the largest audience Wolverine has ever had)

Not trying to quibble, because I'm sure you're right. But I think the popularity of the movie is overrated. When I saw it in the theatres, the place was packed with people who were already familiar with the comics. The strong opening, and steep decline, of ticket sales points this out. I have yet to meet a person who has seen this movie on their own, without the prodding of a friend. This is the cinematic equivalent of handing a non-comic fan a copy of the Dark Phoenix saga. They may look at it, but it doesn't mean that it sticks.

I'd rather see the big iconic properties maximized to appeal to the widest audience, and have them be the cash cows which put enough cash into the pockets of the people who publish them so that they can move on and invest the revenue into publishing and marketing non-superhero, non-genre related comics to the mass media audience.

Amen.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:03 / 01.02.02
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chevy Fenderson:
And I agree with you about Wizard--I thought Dan Jurgan's run on Spider-Man was thoughtful and entertaining...but Wizard kept going on and on about the whole clone thing, and got Marvel to retract the story-theme. Pooh pooh on them!!!

I think there is a fairly good chance that we don't share the same reasons for disliking Wizard, man.

Chevy, I think that perhaps your view of the comics industry is a bit too narrow, and you're thinking only in terms of keeping corporate properties alive as opposed to having 'good writers' write their own material.

I think that it is nice that some writers from outside of the field are doing some work-for-hire writing for corporate properties, and that a guy like Grant Morrison who more often than not writes creator-owned material will do work-for-hire in an attempt to boost the revenues of mainstream companies and reach out to wider audiences.

I also think that it's a bit pathetic and laughable that the best writers that can be pulled in from outside of the field are pulp crime novel writers and has-been hollywood hacks. It never occurs to people that perhaps the reason why other sorts of writers don't want to do work for hire is because, like, y'know, they like to write their own material, not to mention work for better pay.

I strongly believe that the widest mainstream audience for comics actually what are considered non-mainstream in the comics industry - non genre work. It's already being proven by the continuing successes of Chris Ware and Daniel Clowes.
 
 
moriarty
18:26 / 01.02.02
I think that in the world of comics, there seem to be two major camps, with one other camp sorely lacking. There's superheroes and, for want of a better word, "literature." What this neglects is what almost all other mass mediums possess. A true mainstream. Genre work, not defined as simply "superheroes," but as all genres. In its heyday, superhero comics accounted for only ten percent of the industry's output. Now the reverse is true. Back then you could get Horror, Westerns, Sci-Fi, Romance, etc.

Genre work might not be your cup of tea, but for many people (including a huge number of people on this board) escapist fiction is something they can really sink their teeth into, either as a break from heavier reading/viewing, or as surprisingly heavy reading/viewing itself. Buffy, Blake's 7, Vampires and Zombies, Westerns, Monsters Inc, Harry Potter, etc. All these works have been discussed in depth here. To deny the existence of genres that cater to such an audience is a sure way to limit the potential to reach more people.

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: moriarty ]
 
 
Professor Silly
18:40 / 01.02.02
way off, "dude"

quote: you're thinking only in terms of keeping corporate properties alive as opposed to having 'good writers' write their own material.


when in fact I already said what my veiw consists of:

quote: I purchase those books that have good writing

This includes creator-controlled properties, mainstream books, indies, funny stuff, serious stuff...etc etc etc.

now would you stop acting all defensive and high and mighty?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:40 / 01.02.02
quote:Originally posted by moriarty:
Genre work might not be your cup of tea, but for many people (including a huge number of people on this board) escapist fiction...All these works have been discussed in depth here. To deny the existence of genres that cater to such an audience is a sure way to limit the potential to reach more people.


Yes, I do think that they have their place, and should certainly be pushed and promoted within the industry. They are positive things. I still doesn't change my mind that there should be more comics about real life, about regular people, and that those comics if done very well could ultimately have the widest audience. I think there should be more non-fiction comics too - I think that Jessica Abel's limited forays into 'comics as journalism' could really become something really quite interesting and marketable.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:59 / 01.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Chevy Fenderson:
This includes creator-controlled properties, mainstream books, indies, funny stuff, serious stuff...etc etc etc.


Yes, but you spent all of your time namechecking the Batman, Spider-Man, X-Men, and Warren Ellis comics, and wondering how we could employ the "Orson Welles of comics" to write some 'masterpiece' comics for Marvel and DC, which invariably means work-for-hire superhero comics.

Spending all of this time thinking about how to get 'good writers' working on corporate properties is ultimately silly: It really doesn't matter how well-written these things are if they aren't reaching an audience large enough to justify the continuing publication of the comics in the first place, or are completely inaccessable to those people who aren't hardcore comics fans. The industry hasn't seen growth in *several* years, and if current trends persist, will eventually die out.

These corporate icon characters are a very good tool for bringing in revenue, if the comics are accessable and marketed correctly. The quality is ultimately unimportant so long as they can bring in an audience and money to keep the industry afloat so that the artform can develop and eventually thrive.

Also: bear in mind that no matter how good a superhero comic is, no matter what kind of 'masterpiece' it is, it doesn't matter to the rest of the world, because it's still superheroes, and will not ever be taken seriously as a work of literature. It's a waste of time for a writer with any sense of ego to write a 'masterpiece' and sabotage it by having it be about superheroes, especially if they didn't even create the characters themselves.

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Sleeps w/ Electric Guitars ]
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:59 / 01.02.02
Off topic, but wasn't the Hulk originally meant to be red, only they couldn't afford red ink or sumfink?
 
 
Professor Silly
19:33 / 01.02.02
ah, I see the nature of your misunderstanding of my words now.

a masterpiece doesn't have to be done with DC or Marvel...in fact I would say that most likely it would have to be with entirely new, creator-owned material. The question remains, how does tomorrow's genius get the corporate support to get their story into the maximum number of hands.

and we see here a consensus (unless your motive is purely antagonistic). the mainstream books can serve to build a writer's fanbase to the point that they can create a masterpiece, and have it enjoyed by the public.

take for example Felon, by Greg Rucka. this story takes place in a "realistic" world, with no superheroes or mutants or men who dress up as animals...but would he have gotten the chance to write this book without the critical success of his work with Batman?

and does this cheapen said Batman stories, since he didn't "create" the character?

we're getting off topic here. defending the relevance of mainstream books, continuity, and the likes and dislikes of separate individuals are all beside (yet still related to) the point.

focusing in on those who have actually been reading this storyline (Bruce Wayne: Murderer?) rather than those forcing their opinions about the hypothetical ramifications of the industry's current marketing choices, I ask again what anyone thinks about this story.

PATricky: his bodyguard has been going on patrol with him at night, not to fight crime, but to do her job of protecting him (even if this is sort of redundant--he's Batman for Christ's sake). and of course, she's fallen in love with him. now the tricky thing here is this: can she deal with the pressures of the D.A. and the charge of accessory to murder without betraying Batman's secret identity? With Bruce nearly killing the aryans in prison, and his soon to come escape, the pressures on this female character keep building....

Rose: I agree--both my wife and I have been really enjoying the core Batman books since NML. even the high contrast coloring choices seemed cool and innovative (muted blues and oranges only). Wizard may not have liked it...but then they're monkeys. You're right of course...perhaps this is a way to have Batman focus on his civilian life, rather than seeing it as a mask Batman wears to make his war easier.

or perhaps he'll simply retire Bruce Wayne (he disappears from public eye) and become Batman full time, as PATricky suggests. Either way, this storyline has me completely hooked, and I'm enjoying every

fuckin'

moment.

P.S. I think they originally intended Hulk to be grey, but the technology wasn't there to mix a consistent shade of grey from issue to issue...so he turned green in his second appearance. As a tattoo artist, I can vouch for the difficulty of mixing consistent shades of grey outside of a computer.

So, does Batman need Bruce Wayne anymore?
 
 
Mr Tricks
20:42 / 01.02.02
Interestingly... it seems that Bruce Wayne has been used more & more as a factor with-in the stories...
His disapearance may make some of his efforts easier, but I think it would be viewed as a "Mistake" by his peers... This of course could be a longer ranged storyline where he becomes Batman 24/7 sort of looses touch & has to get back in touch with who he is outside of his "war" ... which could lead to a much needed Vacation.... with his bodyguard!!!
 
  
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