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* Invisibles & Postmodernism

 
  

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Cat Chant
10:45 / 05.01.02
So I have a week in which to hand in the reading list for the course I'm teaching this semester on "Postmodern Cultures" (third-year undergraduate level).

I'd like to teach the Invisibles, but sadly I'm not much of an expert on it. Does anyone have any suggestions for a short storyline I could use to teach something-or-other about postmodernism? I'm fairly sure the college library won't have the Invisibles, but I'm hopeful I can get them to buy a copy or two of one of the TPBs. I'd quite like to do something involving magick, but as I know squat about magick it'd have to be very basick (hee hee).

Or would Doom Patrol be better?

[ 07-01-2002: Message edited by: Tom Coates ]
 
 
Naked Flame
11:54 / 05.01.02
Doom Patrol is... well, easier would be the wrong word... but it's shorter and the whole pomo angle is far more explicit. lots of language games and superhero subversion. plus each ish seems far more self-contained (tho I've not read all of them.)

If I was gonna pick an Invisibles TPB to teach it'd be the one with 'Counting To None' but the whole thing might be too much of a gestalt. I tried writing about it as an undergrad and my tutor's verdict was that there was enough to talk about to knock out a PhD... but could I please try and work with something a little easier, like 'Ullyses'?
 
 
sleazenation
13:06 / 05.01.02
another vote for counting to none- as being one of the trades that has lots to talk about and does rather encapsulate the narrative (although setting it as a set text is akin to setting a chapter of a book as a set text ... It really needs to be exained as a whole-- something which irealise is kind of unlikely)

Perhaps flex mentallow (a lot short coming in at 4 issues) would be better-- unfortunately its never been collected...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:14 / 05.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Flame On:
I tried writing about it as an undergrad and my tutor's verdict was that there was enough to talk about to knock out a PhD... but could I please try and work with something a little easier, like 'Ullyses'?


Although not easier to spell, apparently.

"Bloody Hell in America"? I would have thought that was a logical one, as it covers the characters moving self-consciously through different tropes (we are in America, so we are going to be an action movie, we are going to explain to the redneck that he is not in the film he thinks he is in, and so forth). The obligatory Morrison bits about them being in a comic also feature after Robin gets taken to the Scout Hut at the Edge of the Universe.
 
 
Professor Silly
15:26 / 05.01.02
If you're wanting to incorporate magick into this project, I'd suggest "Say You Want a Revolution," where Jack learns magick from Tom. Cross-reference it with Crowley's "Magick in Theory and Practice" and you've got yourself a really good starting place.

All Hail Discordia!
 
 
rizla mission
17:04 / 05.01.02
I'd reckon volume.3 might be best (though again, it hasn't been collected) - for the crazy mixing of characters who belong in 70s cop shows and cyberpunk and trad. British horror and mystical tavelogues and conspiracy thrillers all in the same story, plus the whole notion of the world as a video game, the cut and paste grimoire, the numerous conflicting cosmologies .. god, it's about time I read those issues again..
 
 
Cat Chant
17:54 / 05.01.02
Cheers, y'all. Say You Want A Revolution is the first few issues, yes? (I really am horribly ignorant, don't own/haven't read all the issues, etc).

Leaning towards "Bloody Hell In America", actually. Is that the title of the TPB? (I can't really see the college library buying back issues, and I don't have time to faff about tracking them down on Gauda Prime, which is not famed for its comics shops.)

As for it being like setting a chapter of a book - I'm doing that as well. These people don't have attention spans any more, you know. Born in the 1980s <shudder>. And I suspect the whole thing would need a module of its own (maybe next year?)

Keep 'em coming. (You can design the rest of the course as well, if you like.)
 
 
Big Talk
00:10 / 06.01.02
all of volume 2 is the best bet- you could keep looping back to the first words- 'its the end of the word as we know it.' the self-aware movie/comic talk- the cliches- the dialogue in quotations- robin referring to Grant + writing herself into the story from the future- mason + debord + the specacle- the invisible college issue with awareness of comic panels + 2D nature- you're set.
 
 
mondo a-go-go
21:26 / 06.01.02
err, hello?
 
 
Jackie Susann
21:44 / 06.01.02
I reckon Bloody Hell would be best - it's pretty self-contained, setting up the characters again for the start of volume two and wrapping itself up pretty well. It's not too long, and I don't remember the page layouts being too complicated (which is a problem for non-comics readers). King Mob gets to say 'I'd call that a triumph for post-modernism any day of the bloody week', or whatever it is, and there is plenty for arts students to talk about (i.e. gender roles and relations, representations of sexuality, postcolonialism and cultural appropriation). They won't get bogged down in Grant's theories of reality, which is the last thing you'd want a room full of undergraduates talking about.

I'm curious about what readings you'd set to go with it. I have long nurtured a fantasy of doing some discourse analysis/ideological unpicking of chaos magick texts, and Phil Hine's stuff might be good for that. Alternately, one of Samuel Delany's essays on comics and stuff in Shorter Views. Or Stephen Shaviro's book Doom Patrols, of course.

It's embarrassing to realise how much I enjoy making up hypothetical college courses.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
21:55 / 06.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Kooky is....bored, probably:
err, hello?



Is it me, or is the section on "postmodernity" in the Bomb empty except for a link back to the index? And is that in itself postmoderm?
 
 
Tom Coates
10:31 / 07.01.02
It is indeed empty, as indeed is a lot of the Bomb. Don't blame me - you guys were supposed to write something too...

Back to the issue in hand. What particular ASPECT of postmodernity are you going to try to engage through the Invisibles? There's a hell of a lot of self conscious stuff on the machine and what exists outside the machine in volume two - particularly the end of volume two, which might help you explain the postmodern relationship between language, reality and creativity...
 
 
Tom Coates
10:35 / 07.01.02
Yeah - actually I think that might be a really good way of feeding them stuff easily.

Been thinking about this for the last few minutes, and what you want is the final black science storyline and the american deathcamp storyline.

In that you can talk about the Enlightenment project and science and how that is reflected in modernity - and characterised by MOrrison as evil soulless and mechanical. The Invisibles are what's OUTSIDE that, individuality etc. The creative impulse from 'outside', or unfathomable within the machine... etc.
 
 
grant
16:15 / 07.01.02
I think you'd be best off using the Bobby Murray story. Dead Man Falling.
It's got a lot of reversals in it, discontinuous, and plays with surface ideas of good guy-bad guy. Unwrites the idea of the hero with a gun, and unwrites the idea of the nefarious villain.
Plus it's an Invisibles comic with the Invisibles hardly in it.
And it's a really good freestanding story.

I dunno, though. As above stated, it really depends on what kind of thing you're teaching, and what kind of emphasis you'd like to have on the Invisibles as a text.
 
 
Seth
22:23 / 07.01.02
I think that issue only really has its full impact in the context of the first volume, though. How can it have an effect as a reveral if you haven't set up conventions to turn upside-down?
 
 
Thiassi
22:33 / 07.01.02
As long as we're on the subject of postmodernism, would someone please define it for me? As far as I can tell from talking to people it is basically a rebirth of sophism. However, it seems to have a few other aspects as well.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
23:04 / 07.01.02
[rot] Farkin' Hell. I really need to read this... anyone wanna lend me some cash? (Sorry, this thread just interested - then infuriated me - with it's Invisibles wossnames dangling all around me)[/rot]
 
 
Mystery Gypt
02:03 / 08.01.02
what's up with wanting to teach something you haven't read? oughtn't you to know a whole lot more about a subject before you stand up and preach it to a class?
 
 
sleazenation
06:52 / 08.01.02
Actually iI think 1.12 could only be more powerful if it was read befire issue 1.1 which gives may give it a greater context within the series but all of the relevent points (ie that bobby Murry is a soldier in Gelt's Private army) is all there...
 
 
Jackie Susann
07:03 / 08.01.02
I don't think it is that great a story in it's own right - it's just a disjointed story about some dickhead who has a crap childhood, beats his wife, and gets killed by some weirdo for no apparent reason. And the writing isn't that great (in particular, the scene where Bobby's brother sits up to croak 'I always hated you' and immediately drops dead is absurdly melodramatic.)

I don't really think there's enough in it to talk about at length in a class on postmodern cultures, either. You could show a five minute clip from Austin Powers that made the same point, i.e., that bad guy cannon fodder are people too. Disjointed narrative isn't an especially innovative technique; even Hollywood movies have happily assimilated it. If you told non-comic reading college students that it was considered quite radical in comics, this would not do much to improve their view of the medium.
 
 
Tom Coates
07:03 / 08.01.02
There are essentially MANY postmodernities, but I suppose in a nutshell the one that I'm familiar with goes a bit like this:

Modernity can be defined as the rationalist mindset that emerged during the enlightenment and can be seen to be an analysis of the world within language as the world which IS. It's kind of the clockwork universe idea post-Newton - that everything fits together and is comprehensible and predictable from the perspective of a human being.

Post-structuralist writing tended to emphasize that language isn't transparent to reality, but is a constructor of reality, in that our need to differentiate between objects, assign names to them, create heirarchies etc was what generated 'our' world, but that such a world was no more or less than a human-created structure that referred essentially only back on itself. People like Derrida demonstrated that language works on axes of association and the deferral of meaning - so that tree gets its meaning from associations with green, leaf, trunk etc - but that green, leaf and trunk etc. only get THEIR meanings through subsequent associations with other things. There is no fixed point in which we can define something outside language in a stable way.

Postmodernity takes up many of the challenges of post-structuralist thought - basically intimating the the modernist structure we inhabit is essential to being 'human' and that we couldn't think or operate outside this structure, but that you can push this structure until it collapses around the edges - and that the collapse was more interesting and rewarding than the structure. Postmodernity is often about pushing concepts to the point at which they become their opposite and then explode - to use a bad metaphor, releasing a lot of creative energy in the process.

It's against the view of the world as determinist, closed, fully comprehensible, knowable, logical and robotic - a tension that seems to me to be recapitulated in fiction in the battle between the Outer Church and the Invisibles (in which the modernist world is completely self-deconstructing all the time, because it lives in a postmodern world, and in which the postmodern agents are necessarily restricted within a modernist mindset for the vast amount of time).
 
 
Thiassi
07:25 / 08.01.02
Okay, I sort of see what you're talking about, but I'd like you to expand a bit on two of your points.

How do you push a concept to the point where it becomes its opposite?

What evidence does postmodernism offer against the concept of a fully comprehensible world?
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
07:48 / 08.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Thiassi:
As long as we're on the subject of postmodernism, would someone please define it for me? As far as I can tell from talking to people it is basically a rebirth of sophism. However, it seems to have a few other aspects as well.


Wow. That's a fascinating statement. What exactly are the tenets of "sophism", please? And in what way does postmodernism rebirth them?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
07:48 / 08.01.02
I am with 'Bloody Hell in America'. It won't confuse them too much and it has a whole lot of text-book articulations of post-modernity, leading to more complex articulations. And I'm jealous of Deva getting to teach the Invisibles. That's just the sort of gig I'd love...
 
 
Jackie Susann
07:48 / 08.01.02
Thiassi, do you wanna think about starting another thread rather than occupying large swathes of a pretty specific thread with quite vague general questions likely to produce long, rambling answers?
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
07:48 / 08.01.02
Seconded. I would further suggest that you do so in the Head Shop.

[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: The Halfway Haus ]
 
 
Mr Tricks
22:20 / 08.01.02
I would suggest Bloody Hell in America as well, for most of the reasons already stated as well as the fabulous art by Phil Jemenez!!!

Perhaps you couls assign Issue 1 Vol 1 for extra credit as it vertually breaks down the whole cosmos of the story in a very post modern way...

Plus it's probably not hard to find at any comic shop for the student will to go that extra yard...

 
 
Molly Shortcake
22:38 / 08.01.02
Tom Coates wrote:

quote:basically intimating the the modernist structure we inhabit is essential to being 'human' and that we couldn't think or operate outside this structure, but that you can push this structure until it collapses around the edges - and that the collapse was more interesting and rewarding than the structure.

Word.

Two words actually: Einstürzende Neubauten. (Collapsing new buildings)

Rosa is dead on, Bloody Hell in America.

You're going to need supporting essays. Badly. What do you have in mind?

[ 09-01-2002: Message edited by: Ice Honkey Evil Malcontent Hedgehog ]
 
 
Logos
23:24 / 08.01.02
quote:Originally posted by The Halfway Haus:


Wow. That's a fascinating statement. What exactly are the tenets of "sophism", please? And in what way does postmodernism rebirth them?


The sophists were originally travelling teachers in Greece, beginning shortly before the time of Socrates. They taught a number of subjects, most relevantly: rhetoric, since the young men they taught were interested in careers in politics and civic leadership. They believed that success in argument and oratory was the important thing, rather than the pursuit of truth or knowledge for its own sake.

More information on the sophists can be found in the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy. The article there mentions two additional waves of sophist philosophers, orators and thinkers.

The parallel to postmodern theories of language-constructed reality and the ultimate subjectivity of truth are fairly straightforward.

It's interesting to contrast the school of the sophists with that of Socrates/Plato/Aristotle in the ancient world, and the postmodernists with the positivists (for example in the hard sciences).
 
 
Logos
23:28 / 08.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Thiassi:


How do you push a concept to the point where it becomes its opposite?


Consider the Tibetan theory of the Bardo experience, where you reach the peak of a particular mode of existence, and cannot tell whether you are experiencing that mode at all, or its absence.

Or, imagine travelling faster and faster, until you approach the speed of light. Under the theory of relativity, the closer you get, the slower your subjective experience becomes relative to the rest of the universe, until at light speed, your subjective reality stands still.
 
 
Jackie Susann
23:42 / 08.01.02
While Thiassi is setting up the new thread on postmodernism, could Haus start another rather than disembowelling Logos here?

I am thinking about posting my fantasy 12 week Invisibles course, each week with particular issues assigned as well as secondary readings; alternately I might take on the idea that the Invisibles is full of postmodern ideas. Either way, I would really appreciate people not rotting this thread anymore - the subject is Invisibles & Postmodernism, try to stick with it, kids.
 
 
Sandfarmer
23:49 / 08.01.02
If nothing else, maybe you could offer up the Invisibles as a side project for a bonus or extra credit. Let the class go out on their own and dig up one issue or one tpb from the Invisibles. Then have them do a short oral report on how it relates to postmodernism. In short, they do the work for you and have some fun with it.

If they only read one issue and have no idea what is going on with the characters then all the more challenging.
 
 
Thiassi
00:01 / 09.01.02
Sorry about that.

The Postmodernism topic is here.
 
 
Cat Chant
08:07 / 09.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Gypt:
what's up with wanting to teach something you haven't read? oughtn't you to know a whole lot more about a subject before you stand up and preach it to a class?


I have a month before the course starts, and the course lasts for three months. I'm guessing that within four months I can read a volume of the Invisibles. I'm also hoping that my teaching style cannot be summarized as "stand up and preach".

Thanks to everyone: off to the Bomb & to get hold of a copy of 'bloody hell in America.' Will respond more fully soon.
 
 
Tom Coates
11:11 / 09.01.02
Which text-book definitions of postmodernism are we talking about? Please tell me it's not the pop-culture aware / self-referential / ironic kind? Because I honestly believe that's a bastardisation (my beliefs may be without foundation).
 
  

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