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Lee/Kirby

 
 
Captain Zoom
14:52 / 30.12.01
Lots of talk of these two creators in the last few days. Now, I've read the Essential Avengers and a bunch of old FF stuff and I've got to say it didn't really appeal. Now, the art was great, but Lee's stories don't do a thing for me. I had a peek at the Just Imagine series and Lee's dialogue and stories really bug me. That said, I'm a big fan of Kirby's solo stuff. The 2001 series is mind-blowing, as is what little of his DC output that I've read.
My question is: Are the Lee-Kirby collaborations really great stories, or is it just 'cause they were the first ones? I'm not trying to provoke arguments here. I really want to understand the fascination some people have with Stan Lee. I don't think I've ever read a story he wrote that I've enjoyed.

Zoom.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:35 / 30.12.01
I don't think Lee was a very good writer in terms of dialogue etc, but the ideas behind the comics (which many people believe were really all Kirby and Lee just stole credit, which I don't want to argue about...I'm just going to assume the credits are accurate in spite of my cynicism about it) were great... I especially like the very first Galactus/Silver Surfer story.

I must admit, my interest in those old Kirby Marvel comics has more to do with me just really liking how they look. I like John Romita and Sal Buscema a lot too. So crisp, so pop... I'm a big fan of that drawing style now, though when I was younger I hated it. I thought it was too 'cartoony' and 'unrealistic', which baffles me now, because the artists I dug when I was 12 (like, say, Jim Lee and Marc Silvestri when he drew X-Men) I'm repulsed by now because what I once thought was 'realistic' just looks so crap now.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
15:49 / 30.12.01
actually I reckon Lee was a very good writer in terms of dialogue.

one of my fave comics of all time is the FF meet Mr. Impossible by Lee/Kirby (early, early issue) - very funny, great art, good dialogue.

I read the (in)famous Comic Book Journal interview with Jack Kirby and felt soooo sorry to learn how badly he'd been treated by Marvel. And I fell for his,' Stan Lee is a shmuk' routine as well. On further investigation, I'm no longer convinced in Kirby's version of events.


Sorry for sending this thread in the wrong direction, readers.

[ 30-12-2001: Message edited by: captain roaring ]
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
15:57 / 30.12.01
Lee and Kirby together did better work that either would do alone, IMHO. Kirby was the master of telling a story, with so much action that you couldn't hlep be be dragged along into the silliest of situations. Lee was able to make the stories make sense, read better than anything else at the time, and show it off in such a way that it felt cool, depsite the fact the it was a pair of guys in their 40's doing funny books for kids.

Have the stories aged well? I say the Lee/Kirby stuff is still wonderful fun, and the Ditko stuff reads even better, but Lee's other stuff reads a lot like 70's Marvel, OK but not holdign up well to the test of time.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:03 / 30.12.01
Speaking of Ditko, I saw a reprint book of all of his old "Tsk Tsk" columns the other day... They really creeped me out, it's all cryptic highly sanctimonious attacks against Marvel, informed by Objectivism... Very interesting to look out, but definitely disturbing, particularly in light of Ditko's 'mysterious recluse' shtick...
 
 
CameronStewart
16:42 / 30.12.01
The majority of the credit should go to Kirby and Ditko - these guys would draw out 22 pages of story based on what was often little more than a single-line synopsis -"This month Spider-Man fights Doctor Doom on the statue of Liberty." Both would often write suggested dialogue themselves, which Lee would then refine to make the final script (sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse - through mere dialogue Stan managed to change Jack's inital, more powerful concept of the Silver Surfer as stern, ruthless sentinel into angst-ridden spacehippie).

Lee's dialogue could often be a lot of fun, though, and when bolstered by the beautiful drawing of Kirby, Ditko, Romita Sr, et al, it made for some really excellent comics.

I suggest reading the Lee/Kirby Fantastic Four comics - I can't really express how great they are as well as the Comics Journal:

quote: It was the balance between the outlandish and the human that made the Fantastic Four stand out, the rhythms of storytelling which allowed characterization to blossom in the midst of world-shaking chaos. Not only were the foundations of the Marvel Universe laid out in these pages - Doctor Doom, the return of the Sub-Mariner, the Black Panther, the Watcher, the Silver Surfer, Galactus and the Inhumans - this bounty of imagination was balanced by a great deal of humor, empathy and wonder. The Thing in a Beatle wig, his persecution at the hands of both the hot-headed Torch and the Yancy Street Gang, the Invisible Woman's frustration at Mister Fantastic's absent-minded professor tendencies, Willie Lumpkin's bid for membership....these small touches were what gave the series heart.

And the heart was pumping for the most muscular of Silver Age spectacles: namely, the visual elan Kirby brought to the series. Silver Age Marvel was indisputably Kirby's finest moment, and the FF was his showcase. Kirby's art grew progressively more polished until it reached the solid, blocky dynamism that remains the standard for superhero comics today. The generosity of Kirby's storytelling, the detail brought to every panel, to every stance, to every fight scene, fleshed out a world he dared us to believe in. Even the photocollages, quaint as they look now, pushed the limits of what "cosmic" meant to the fanboy imagination.

In short, the versatility of the series - especially within the constraints of a relatively obvious genre - was remarkable. It could be cosmic on one page and homespun the next. The coming of Galactus was earth-shattering, but the marriage of Reed Richards and Sue Storm was equally momentous. Few have come close to capturing what Lee and Kirby did on Fantastic Four - and to be honest, the formula hasn't always remained in favour over the years. But this remains the classic model, the superhero comic all others should be measured against.


Try and say that about Alias.

It's also worth considering these stories in their proper context - many of the characters and ideas seem banal to us now (!) because they've been replayed so many times by so many different artists and writers, but try and imagine what it must have been like to read these comics back when NO ONE HAD EVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THEM. Reed Richards travelling into the Negative Zone, the mighty Galactus arriving to destroy the Earth - the scope of imagination on display would have blown these kids' heads wide open...

[ 30-12-2001: Message edited by: CameronStewart ]
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
17:50 / 30.12.01
even though ditko drew silly silly eyebrows
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:21 / 30.12.01
quote:Originally posted by CameronStewart:
It's also worth considering these stories in their proper context - many of the characters and ideas seem banal to us now (!) because they've been replayed so many times by so many different artists and writers, but try and imagine what it must have been like to read these comics back when NO ONE HAD EVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THEM. Reed Richards travelling into the Negative Zone, the mighty Galactus arriving to destroy the Earth - the scope of imagination on display would have blown these kids' heads wide open...



PRECISELY. And you need no further proof of the brilliance of Lee/Kirby FF than the fact that NOBODY has done an FF story since that wasn't just using the same ideas and characters that they created in those 100 or so issues...
 
 
CameronStewart
18:53 / 30.12.01
>>>Very interesting to look out, but definitely disturbing, particularly in light of Ditko's 'mysterious recluse' shtick... <<<

As for the "mysterious recluse", some time last year, through a sequnce of events not exactly clear to me, I managed to get a hold of Ditko's telephone number. I had it pinned on my corkboard for months and months before I decided to give it a whirl...but I hung up after one ring.

Chicken.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
19:09 / 30.12.01
Ditko is a bit odd, but no more so that other people who have taken Ayn Rand as their personal savior.

At first I though he was quite mad, after reading a bunch of his Charlton stuff. I still do, but it's a madness than many people seem to share, since Rand's crappy books have quite a following.
 
 
A
09:40 / 31.12.01
I don't know a huge amount about Lee and Kirby's silver-age stuff (I've never read any of their FF comics), but I have read some reprints of some of their early X-Men stuff (which Kirby seems to have usually done the layouts for, but not the finished art), and I really like them.

There's one issue in particular which features the first appearance of the Juggernaut, and it's fantastic. It combines the Juggernaut (who no-one as seen yet) breaking through all the defences the X-Men have set, while Proffessor X tells them the tale of how the Juggernaut came about. The pacing is perfect, it's such a suspenseful comic.
 
 
[N.O.B.O.D.Y.]
09:40 / 31.12.01
Some of the concepts that Flux and Cameron mentioned before where interesting...but I still think that the Lee/Kirby stuff must be among of the most overrated things in the medium; not everything they have done is great. Fantastic Four is still nice to read, especially that story about Galactus and Silver Surfer; Thor is probably even better than that. But I have never found any appeal in their X-Men, for example.
And about Lee, well...The problem is not just that his dialogues, but the fact that he often mistook "character development" with the cheapest soap opera...especially in Spiderman. And while I have to admit that the amount of imagination put on those stories is great, and it's must have been amazing to see that at that time, Lee and Kirby weren't alone in doing it. Gardner Fox did it before them when he introduced things like parallel earths, for example.
The one thing I have always wondered about Marvel in that era is why everybody is always talking about how great were Spiderman and Fantastic Four, and the greatest comic Stan Lee ever did, Doctor Strange, is just barely mentioned...
 
 
bastl b
13:42 / 06.01.02
HEY!! i´m a big kirby fan. from what i´ve read the marvel method was very loose. lee and kirby would exchange some ideas and kirby would do the comic and write down some dialogue around the panels. lee finished the dialogue, so the heart of the stories comes mostly from kirby.

gotta say I´m not that much a fan of the lee/kirby comics even though it´s far from bad. but it´s mainstream stuff designed to appeal to the masses. lee always knew how to sell his comics but the marvel and dc error is always editing out the greatest parts and making their work as cheesy and soapy as possible. which sells fine to a limited audience but in the end they erased the creativity out of theri won comics. then that became the standard for superhero comics and after everything else got erased by the comics code of authority we ended up where we are now..

i prefer kirby´s solo dc work in the seventies, especially new gods. his stuff is mythic, extremely dynamic and authentic. it has such a great plot, drama and highly interesting observations on bioscience, tools that are aware and mixed up with the spirituality which is very important for this work. Kirby got his worldviews across very clearly and I think it´s really swell. Not at all simple but you can read it as a kid and only understand relatively few of it but still enjoy it a lot. it was to be his masterpiece but it didn´t sell well so dc cancelled it after a few issues. a real shame since it was such towering stuff. it´s very very raw and pure kirby but even stuff like morrisons´ jla completely pales in comparison. kirby didn´t want to do another good superhero title he did a real graphic novel instead, but it was serious, his big statement about how he saw the universe. I guess he always tried to do real story telling with any comic he created but management forced him to do the monthly pamphlet cliffhanger stuff. he got frustrated and left for dc where he made a deal with them, that no editor would interfere with his fourth world comics (new gods was only one of four interrelated stories, all about the clash of the various new gods and how that affects them and then humans caught between, and all these books were called kirby´s fourth world). well dc cancelled every single one of them. kirby continued with other titles then left frustrated again, back to marvel, where he did other stuff and sometime at the end of his carreer he was worn out by the constant shifting of creative teams on comics he´d initially created or his stuff being cancelled too soon. in the end he hardly ever completed stories he began but the characters are still around to a large part. note that the fourth world books have been collected into trade paperbacks now and are all back in print while at the time they were called industry flops. a younger comics creator generation reacted and that led to the concepts of creator owned work and miniseries and so on.
 
 
bio k9
20:52 / 06.01.02
I think its important to note that Lee and Kirby did 102(?) straight issues of the F.F. while doing work on all those other Marvel comics. If you don't like their version of the X Men you can read any one of the 10 other comics they were creating any given month. These days the prolific writers pump out boring ass scripts that rely on sex scenes to sell their slow slow stories (This month Luke Cage gives it to some white bitch, in the ASS! And Cap makes a cameo. All for $2.99, true believers!) and the artists have trouble doing 22 pages in 3 months. I think any criticism of the Lee/ Kirby era Marvel comics needs to take into account the massive ammount of work they were doing at the time (just as I would speculate* that most of Bendis' stuff sucks because hes writing too many books and not spending enough time on any of them each month).

*Before anyone tries to yell at me about trashing shit I haven't read... I'm not speculating that his stuff sucks, I've read it and it does. I'm speculating that it sucks because hes writing too many books.

[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: biomagnetic k9 ]
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:01 / 10.06.02
Well, it should also be noted that the original Lee/Kirby/Thomas/Adams/etc X-Men comics were never very popular, and certainly a failure. They didn't have much of a following, and weren't really the X-Men that are best known to people til Chris Claremont, Dave Cockrum, and John Byrne came on and redefined/repurposed the whole concept.
 
 
Sandfarmer
02:23 / 12.06.02
Its very popular these days to bash Lee and say that Kirby, Romita and Ditko did all the work but I have tremendous respect for Stan Lee. His Fantastic Four, Silver Surfer, Hulk and Spider-Man comics are brilliant. Yeah, the dialog can be hokey but you have to remember it was a totally different target audience. Horror and Westerns were dying or dead. DC had reduced Superman and Batman to total camp. Stan Lee brings in a sci-fi twist on the superhero complete with monster heroes and intergalactic space empires.

Go read the first 20 issues or so of Fantastic Four. (The Essential FF Vol. 1 is a good read.) There has been nothing done in the Marvel Universe or in many other superhero comics at all that was not done by Lee and Kirby in those first issues. You also have to think of the workload. Yeah the artists did a lot of the real writng by laying out the stories but at the same time, Lee was working on FF, Spider-Man, Daredevil, Hulk, Avengers, Silver Surfer, Thor, X-Men, Doc Strange. (And probably some others I forgot.) And comics were much longer then.

A lot of companies have came and gone but nobody did as much in as short a time as Stan Lee. He made his heroes as big as Superman and Batman and it really took him less than 10 years to do it. Having the King around to draw the things for him sure did not hurt but Stan Lee was no hack.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
16:19 / 13.06.02
As I am re-reading the old Lee/Kirby stuff, I can see why most younger fans don't much care for it. It is oddly paced, filled with a lot of silliness and the like.

But, at the time, read what DC was doing...

Kirby was one fo the people who started comics being for older people instead of just a medium to read until you hit about 14. For me, it's the endless flow of ideas that sprung out of those stories...in a lot of ways, never mined properly by the creators and fleshed out by lesser talents.

For me, the best Kirby stuff waqs FF 40 - 85. Nothing else comes close in super-hero drama and sheer inventiveness.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
19:50 / 13.06.02
For those interested, the Comics Journal Jack Kirby coffee table bohemoth came out tuesday. Info is currently available on the front page of the Comics Journal website.
 
 
Sandfarmer
03:38 / 16.06.02
Another thing I noticed going through old FF issues is that it may have been the first comic of its time to really acknowledge that it may had regular readers remembering past continuity. It really catered to a specifc fan base instead of just telling the same Superman or Batman stories over and over again. Its sort of the begininng of a whole "Universe" concept that is so popular today. You know, the whole us vs. them mentality. "Make Mine Marvel" etc.

There could have been other publishers doing thi at the time, I've just never seen it. (I wasn't alive then.)

And just for the sake of listing things...

I think my two favorite Lee/Kirby FF issues (of what I've read so far. I think I've read maybe 40 out of the 100 or so they did.) were the issue where Stan Lee and Jack Kirby actually show up in the comic (looking hip and smoking cigars no less) and the issue where the FF were going broke so they went to Hollywood to make a movie. (Milligan's X-Force anyone?)
 
  
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