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Underground > Comic Books >

New X-Men (General Spoiler Alarm)

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Matthew Fluxington

18:47 / 26.12.01

quote:Originally posted by B i o K - 9:
I think Grant's Wolverine is one of the best things about the book. Hes a complete bad ass and he doesn't have to show it because, well, he's a complete bad ass. None of that "I'm the best at what I do" shit. He doesn't give himself shoutouts because he knows hes the motherfucking man. L to the izzo, G to the izzan? Fuck all that.

I take you didn't read Joe Kelly's run, then, right? Because that's how Joe Kelly wrote Wolverine. Only, Joe Kelly's Wolverine was more dynamic and interesting, and was more than just a presence in the comic out of formality -- it seems that unless Grant didn't feel Logan was necessary in the comic for reasons having to do with his popularity, he wouldn't be there at all.

I really recommend trying to find X-Men 70-79, particularly 70, 71, 72, and 73. Grant's New X-Men might not seem as amazing as it does when you realise that he wasn't the first guy to write the comic with intelligence and class.

Matthew Fluxington

18:54 / 26.12.01

quote:Originally posted by B i o K 9:
And what kind of role would a person like Wolverine have at a school anyway? Campus security? His entire existance is to be the guy who does the physical action stuff. And keep an eye on the lolitas.

Um, actually, even when Claremont was writing the comic and the idea of the school was alternately abandoned or used as a 'front' for the superhero operation, Logan was always in the role of the elder mentor to many of the characters, especially Kitty and Jubilee. He's always been a 'teacher' character in one way or another.

18:59 / 26.12.01

I'll admit, I haven't read X Men in a long time. I was going to pick up Kelly's run on the book because I'd heard some good things about it but before I got the chance he was gone and it apparently went back to being crap. And I've begun to resent the boxes of comics sittingn in my closet (I'd re-read all those Sandman Mystery Theatre issues if they were in trades) so I don't think I'll be looking for any back issues anytime soon. Are they available in trade? If so I might look for them.

Which reminds me, are you still looking for any issues from Invisibles V.3? Happy New Year if you are; send me your address, I've lost it.

19:06 / 26.12.01

Um, actually, even when Claremont was writing the comic and the idea of the school was alternately abandoned or used as a 'front' for the superhero operation

Seems to me that Grants bringing the school back to the fore, making the X Mens mission to train mutants to deal with their powers and help improve the world rather than stage WWF style battles with Magneto ebery other month.

Logan was always in the role of the elder mentor to many of the characters, especially Kitty and Jubilee.

Keeping an eye on the lolitas...

Matthew Fluxington

19:09 / 26.12.01

[QUOTE]Originally posted by B i o K 9:
I'll admit, I haven't read X Men in a long time. I was going to pick up Kelly's run on the book because I'd heard some good things about it but before I got the chance he was gone and it apparently went back to being crap.

The way it works it like this: Post Chris Claremont, the comic is total dreck for about three or four years, this is where the horrible reputation the comic has had really comes from. Then, towards the end of Scott Lobdell's run, when he's not indulging in huge crossovers (though Age of Apocalypse is pretty good), he puts out a bunch of really great comics, mostly with Joe Madureira and Carlos Pacheco. Then Lobdell leaves, and Kelly takes over. (Steve Seagle and Chris Bachalo are on Uncanny X-Men, but are just merely okay). Kelly and Pacheco's first six or seven issues are brilliant. Then editorial interference reaches an all-time high, and Kelly & Seagle play along for a little while, then quit, because the editorial staff is writing the comics and letting them script them, and they can't take it any longer. Then Alan Davis takes over, and his issues are terrible retro crap. Then Claremont returns, and his comics redefine crap for the new millenium. The Lobdell comes back for a little while, his first few issues are wonderful (especially the Kitty Pryde solo story and the death of Colossus) but the Magneto story competes with Claremont in trying to redefine crap. Then Grant comes along, and you know the rest.

Which reminds me, are you still looking for any issues from Invisibles V.3? Happy New Year if you are; send me your address, I've lost it.

oh my! this is amazing timing...I actually purchased a bunch of them today, and I was going to try to find the rest tomorrow when I return to Manhattan...I need the following issues:

8, 7, 6, 5, 3, 1

cool! If only I'd known this when I dropped $18 buying the other six issues this afternoon...

check yr Private Messages...

19:49 / 26.12.01

See now i always thought that the role of Wolverine should be similar to Batman's role in JLA. No idea why, but having Wolverine as the smartest most capable warrior in the world just sounds cool. To me anyway.

What a fanboyish post !

Matthew Fluxington

20:07 / 26.12.01

Oh, just for the record: those Kelly/Pacheco issues are not available as a trade at the moment, though X-Men 70-75 would be a top notch trade that will likely be released someday, I'm sure.

I think X-Men 70 is the single best X-Men issue published to date, though E Is For Extinction is the best storyline.

Professor Silly

09:17 / 27.12.01

There's some irony to be found here, and a warning against "making up your mind."

I've been reading the X-Men books since 1991, when they split into two titles. Eventually (as in a few years ago) I started getting the Clairmont TPs (Inferno, Dark Phoenix, etc) and realized that my old friend Andy in high school had been right: everything after Clairmont left the book was crap!!! I did enjoy some of the different takes on the X-Men (bringing Nightcrawler and Kitty back, etc.) but longed for the return of CC.

Then he returned, and I for one enjoyed his run. It took my three times as long to absorb each issue...and I had to sometimes read it twice to catch it all...but I felt that the time spent was well rewarded. CC has a grasp on the characters that very few others have.

When I heard that CC would lose the X-Books, and get his own title, I decided I'd follow that and never again buy a non CC-writtin X-Men story....

and then I heard the name Morrison.

New X-Men hasn't disappointed me--I'll read anything he reads. And I've enjoyed every issue so far, including the Annual (which took several readings as well). I look forward to the evolution the book will undergo as he pursues the Pacifist-thing.

At the same time I get X-Treme X-Men each month, and have enjoyed every issue so far.

It goes without saying I've enjoyed X-Force in all of its sexiness and absolute unpredictibility...!

All Hail Discordia!!!!!

Matthew Fluxington

09:30 / 27.12.01

Did you ever read Joe Kelly's run? Not to sound fucking evangelical or anything...I'm curious, because the concensus among Claremont fans was that he wrote the characters very true to Claremont's idea of how the characters should be.

Also, I'm begging to know why you may like Claremont's post 91 approach to dialogue...it makes me cringe in the worst way. Really, all of his dialogue is awful...rereading all of those old Claremont issues, I usually have to tune out the dialogue to enjoy the stories.

I think that it is wrong to cling too much to a previous writer's idea of 'characterization', and rather stay true to the essence of what the character should be. I think that for the most part, Claremont's characterizations are weak, even when he was at his best.

The Knowledge +1

09:30 / 27.12.01

Yeah I picked up X-treme x-men 1 and 2 and thought they were crap. Claremont sucks cock

09:30 / 27.12.01

Oh come on, everyone knows Claremont is a top.

"Down on your knees, fanboy. Beg for it."

Gulp. "Yes sir. Please sir, let me... let me... let me know Wolverine's origin, please sir."

"You want it, fanboy? I got your Weapon X right here. Crawl to me."

Thinks: Oh my God, it's just like Ungodly X-Men #571 where Magneto forces Cyke to his knees and rips off his mask so that strange substances shoot uncontrollably from his body... oh... oh...

Professor Silly

13:46 / 27.12.01

quoteid you ever read Joe Kelly's run? Not to sound fucking evangelical or anything...I'm curious, because the concensus among Claremont fans was that he wrote the characters very true to Claremont's idea of how the characters should be.

I did read it--and for the couple months he wrote the book I did find it very enjoyable. Granted, I liked the art a bit more than the writing...but overall I like the very short run.

And here's where we run into a problem. In the long term, I don't enjoy runs quite as much when the writer doesn't have time to develop their ideas. With the exception of CC's original run, very few good writers have had a lengthy stay on an x-men book. The Kelly-era books were entertaining, but then editorial issues had everyone leave.

And before anyone mentions his name, I absolutely hate Lobdell's writing and will not buy a book he's involved with--if you want to talk about crap-ass diologue, we can start here.

quote:Also, I'm begging to know why you may like Claremont's post 91 approach to dialogue...it makes me cringe in the worst way. Really, all of his dialogue is awful...rereading all of those old Claremont issues, I usually have to tune out the dialogue to enjoy the stories.

CC has such a wordy style, which is why it takes me so long to read each issue. The brilliance comes out when one reads all the issues back to back. Not everyone is as much into the reading of a comic, and a lot of people focus primarily on the art. I can tolerate lackluster art if I enjoy the writing...I will not buy a book with the best art ever if it has Lobdell-style writing.

So hey--if you don't agree with me (especially if you must resort to vulgarities rather than coherant rational thoughts) then oh well--I guess that's why they make crap like War Machine...so that the non-college educated can enjoy the funny books too.

yawn - thing's buddy

17:52 / 27.12.01

flux = etc: I wasn't saying that xmen is not as good as invisibles blah blah. (tho' it isn't)

What I tried to explain was that I can feel Morrison's 'effort' in doing this title, like he's pushing his bony pockled face through a sheet of cling film or something. (eh?!)

Wheras X-force is effortless.

grant's Xmen feels just a little too cool and self-conscious for me to lap it up in the usual way.

I'm an early rejecter.

[ 27-12-2001: Message edited by: captain roaring ]

20:27 / 27.12.01

quote:Originally posted by B i o K 9:
And what kind of role would a person like Wolverine have at a school anyway? Campus security? His entire existance is to be the guy who does the physical action stuff. And keep an eye on the lolitas.

Wolvie, in the X-men is the "go-to-guy", in JLA it was probably Supes because of the powers/pure heart riff, or maybe, depending on the situation, Bats for the smarts, but in the X-men, if you're in the shit who do you want riding round the corner = Logan.

Matthew Fluxington

22:30 / 27.12.01

CC has such a wordy style, which is why it takes me so long to read each issue. The brilliance comes out when one reads all the issues back to back. Not everyone is as much into the reading of a comic, and a lot of people focus primarily on the art.

Um, it's not necessarily the NUMBER of words Claremont uses, it's the stilted and entirely unnatural dialogue... I don't know what it's like in Denver, but I know that no one I've ever met talks the way Claremont writes. Everyone in his comics has the same voice too, which is very peculiar.

Scott Lobdell, on the other hand, has his share of flaws, but I don't fault him for his dialogue, which tends to be very snappy and sitcom-y in a "Friends" sort of way. His dialogue tends to be rather pleasant, a bit clever, but not grating or anything. His characters usually come off as pretty human and likeable, I think. Most of his faults lie in story structuring and his admitted fondness for throwing in ideas, concepts, and characters into his stories without any idea of how he will resolve them, so he'd be constantly improvising his stories. That, along with constant editorial interference, explains the highly erratic quality of his tenure on the X-Men comics.

You're being terribly condescending, by the way. You seem to have missed the content of the rest of this board somehow...I'm not sure why anyone would doubt the functional literacy of any of the posters in this community. Except for maybe Knowledge + 1. Ah, I kid, I kid....

[ 28-12-2001: Message edited by: Flux = Disposable Dixiecup Drinker ]

Professor Silly

01:53 / 28.12.01

EXACTLY

I didn't mean to come off as such toward you--you have expressed your opinions in a very clear and concise manner, and I appreciate your honesty.

The jab was in response of the "Clairmont sucks cock" thing.

And yes, I see your point about how real people talk. I happen to loath "Friends" myself...all of my friends talk in more of a Morrison Invisibles manner. Again...we can agree that we disagree.

But I think we're digressing a bit here.

The point I was trying to make overall was that I had decided not go with any non-CC issues of X-Men, until Morrison signed on. In my eyes, CC represents the old school action movie idea, while GM is taking the book into the future.

Go Grant Go

19:46 / 28.12.01

Yeah, I am about to dump Extreme X-Men and Uncanny X-men. It seems to me that textually speaking the rod up Claremont's X-men's butt, has a rod up it's butt. I mean, do you have to slip into each sentence spoken in each issue-a regurgitation of what that persons powers are? "Well it's a good thing that I have control of the weather." It's just stilted and boring. I love the art, but it's not enough to keep me there. Plus, he takes to long to meander through a single story. I have to read back 3 issues with each new one because I'm totally confused. While with Joe Casey's Uncanny X-men. I love the characters, but they just aren't doing anything. The Human Church thing is Borrring!

I only got back into reading comics anyway after a 15 year hiatus because of The Invisibles. It blew me away. I like what Grant is doing to the X-World. I love how its done, and with the exception of the the Annual, I don't think the artwork is bad either. Shit man, I can't draw, and I'm a Graphic Artist!

I'll take up the cheer-Go Grant Go!

Burning Man Mark

Matthew Fluxington

22:08 / 28.12.01

I find it amazing that any person can make Nightcrawler a totally unappealing character. It takes a special kind of skill to pull that one off... even in the hands of a crap writer and a crap artist, Nightcrawler should still have that "oooh cool! Nightcrawler!" thing going for him. Why do all the artists draw him so poorly? How can you go wrong?

Both Iceman and Nightcrawler are comedic relief characters, but Casey writes them both so stiff and uptight...it's awful. It's as though Casey figured out the proper way to write Archangel and decided "oh, well, I'll write them ALL like that!"

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