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Underground > Comic Books >

Morrison Dishes Dirt On X-Men '02

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02:56 / 16.12.01

"And before the inevitable outcry, I hasten to add that Jean's immersion in semen is entirely tasteful and essential to the
storyline..."

05:02 / 16.12.01

I am so pleased to hear that. Sometimes immersion in semen can be a bit unpleasant.

14:31 / 16.12.01

He's a bastard. He says just enough to make me wish months were minutes.

Zoom.

shirtless, beepers and suntans

19:16 / 16.12.01

this is kind of off-topic, but has Morrison done anything new or interesting with the X-men characters?

the first Marvel comic i'd picked up in about seven years was Grant's first X-men comic. it was OK for what it was; it's just that it reminded me why i stopped reading X-men in the first place.

for all of Grant's creativity, all the characters and their interpersonal dynamic were still played out, boring, done-to-death, two-dimensional, and completely static. and i never picked up his second issue, so maybe i jumped ship too early. but i decided i would be happier having $2.25 extra at the end of the month.

does anyone else feel this way? or am i missing something special? or am i just talking to myself here?

19:45 / 16.12.01

You probably jumped the ship a little early. That said It looks very much like Morrison is oing for an evolution throughout his run which means you kind of have to start with the status quo to a certain extent and then play with things from there.

If you want an X comic that is almost completely different from any other however, i'd recommend you give X-force a shot.

20:23 / 16.12.01

Rant warning:

I am sick to death of shit wanker 'hip' comic writers who think they are doing something innovative, interesting or radical with comics by ditching the code and indulging fucked up fanboy fantasies about what women (and/or faggots) really want/deserve/are good for. See naked Emma, sperm-covered Jean, new issue of the Authority, etc. Fuck off dickheads.

By the way while I'm ranting X-Force is shit, cliches about mass media culture that were played out in every genre bar comics ten years ago. Yawn.

20:50 / 16.12.01

quote: Emma's 'Stepford Cuckoos'

Anyone else dig that name? May be that should be submitted to the band name thread.

Not to mention this:

Um, wow!

[ 16-12-2001: Message edited by: I Am ]

The Natural Way

06:54 / 17.12.01

I think that was posted here before.

And Pirate, you sound like every fanboy on the Wizard boards and I'm tired and it winds me up. Look, all that "covered in sperm" shit, it's there to hype the book - Grant goes on like that to provoke a bit of noise: it's advertising for fuck's sake! AND it has nothing to do with the meat of the book or what's really interesting about it. Morrison/Millar/Milligan.....Sorry, but their writing doesn't reduce to these "shock tactics" yr going on about. But yeah, I do agree that there's nothing particularly original about some of the ideas bandied about in X Force, but that doesn't stop it being a fun read...and I think there really is something quite unique bubbling under the surface.

[ 17-12-2001: Message edited by: Gun Runce ]

Matthew Fluxington

13:22 / 17.12.01

quote:Originally posted by Gun Runce:
But yeah, I do agree that there's nothing particularly original about some of the ideas bandied about in X Force, but that doesn't stop it being a fun read...and I think there really is something quite unique bubbling under the surface.

Agreed...I think the thing that's nice about X-Force is that it finally gets the idea of corporate-run media whore superheroes right, it's been done many times over, but this really rings true. There's a sense of personality to X-Force that is pretty unique, and it's just a class act all the way around.

13:42 / 17.12.01

quote:Originally posted by Gun Runce:

Pirate, you sound like every fanboy on the Wizard boards and I'm tired and it winds me up.

Cameron a potential nominee for the Chaos Butterfly awards?

yawn - thing's buddy

18:15 / 17.12.01

if I see that dread pirate bloke round the cold seas o the north pole I'll claw his face off! Argumentative runt that he is!

that said: what a cool name!

20:40 / 17.12.01

just thought i would include this one as well.

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

09:00 / 18.12.01

quote:Originally posted by Gun Runce:
Pirate, you sound like every fanboy on the Wizard boards and I'm tired and it winds me up. Look, all that "covered in sperm" shit, it's there to hype the book - Grant goes on like that to provoke a bit of noise: it's advertising for fuck's sake! AND it has nothing to do with the meat of the book or what's really interesting about it.

So..the semen is there to attract people to buy the comic. People who read the comics press. People who are comics fans. But Bananapants' criticisms are just like...fan criticisms.

I am confused.

Still and all, I love X-Force. But then I thinK Shade was better than the Invisibles, so what do I know?

Matthew Fluxington

09:47 / 18.12.01

quote:Originally posted by The Haus of a sudden chill:

Still and all, I love X-Force. But then I thinK Shade was better than the Invisibles, so what do I know?

Quite a bit, apparently...I think Shade was generally better too.

I would like to see how Jean Grey being covered in semen in just about any context is done in a way that is tasteful AND appropriate for an audience that includes a lot of young teenagers and maybe even a few little kids here and there...

09:47 / 18.12.01

Come on! As long as it's a great splash page that is designed so that all us fanboys/girls can fantasize and masturbate over it it'll be great!!

<Kidding!! I'm Kidding!!>

The Natural Way

09:47 / 18.12.01

So..the semen is there to attract people to buy the comic. People who read the comics press. People who are comics fans. But Bananapants' criticisms are just like...fan criticisms.

I was just trying to point out that the reasons for the semen covering, etc. are more interesting than the semen covering itself. Most people here couldn't give a toss about how *rude* Grant's comic is - it's the other ideas (the "symbolic landscapes" etc) that we're interested in. I'm pretty sure this kind of comment is aimed at a certain type of fan - the kind who makes a lot of noise for or against such things: teenagers and my local comicshop dorks. I agree that this may not be the best method for popularising comics at large, however.

15:22 / 18.12.01

People that don't like GM's X-Men should just not buy it. Don't compalin about it unless you can think of a better X-Men because trust me, you wont find one. The X-Men sucked for a long time and GM has improved it. In that, he has done what he was hired to do.

X-Force has been more consistent. The guest artists on New X-Men have been a drag.

And Allred draws great boobs.

Regrettable Juvenilia

15:58 / 18.12.01

quote:Originally posted by Sandfarmer:
People that don't like GM's X-Men should just not buy it. Don't compalin about it unless you can think of a better X-Men because trust me, you wont find one.

I hardly think either of these 'arguments' invalidate what Crunchy's saying... "if you don't like it, don't buy it" is all well and good, but "don't but it and yet dare to still criticise it at all" is just silly. Plus the fact is, people haven't been just saying that Grant's X-Men is the best possible X-Men comic: it's also been claimed that it is 'subversive', or 'radical'. And maybe on some levels it is, but there remains something deeply, unappealing Beavis-like about trying to sell a comic by saying "heh heh... naked girls... girls with spunk on them...".

[ 18-12-2001: Message edited by: Flyboy ]

Matthew Fluxington

16:11 / 18.12.01

quote:Originally posted by Sandfarmer:
unless you can think of a better X-Men because trust me, you wont find one.

I think people can make valid arguments in favor of Chris Claremont/John Byrne and Joe Kelly/Carlos Pacheco.

Actually, if there is anything that I am disappointed about in Grant's New X-Men is that it is still recycling the Claremont/Bryne run, whatwith having the Shi'Ar empire and the Phoenix returning...

The Natural Way

17:09 / 18.12.01

Right, I'm not sure but it sounded to me that Crunchy was suggesting NXM's selling point is its shock factor. It's not. Tho' I do wish someone would remind Grant of that.

The Knowledge +1

18:21 / 18.12.01

I think you got the spelling wrong. What you actually meant to write was that Jean would be COVERING FOR SEAMAN, who is currently injured. Its a very interesting curve in Grant Morrisons story-arc. Quote:

"I was like, smoking this thai stick I got over from Kathmandu, which made me go blind for an hour, and afterwards I was visited by the spirit of famous ponytailed English soccer squad goalkeeper David Seaman, naked, from the future, from, like, outside the page we are currently writing on, you dig! He said 'Grant. I am the stone at the bottom of your half-full glass (of Guinness, even though I'm not Irish), put me in the comic. I want me and Wolvering to be best friends'. And then I woke up and I knew the entire history of David Seaman, and I saw his future too, and, well, if my predictions are correct, things are gonna get a lot more interesting for David Seaman in the next few years. People are actually gonna want to watch him handling balls".

Grant Morrison. Yesterday.

I heard David Beckham's gonna get a one-issue solo story too. It's going to be three captions long.

09:04 / 19.12.01

quote: you sound like every fanboy on the Wizard boards

Well, nobody ever accused me of that before.

Sorry to continue the general thread-rotting but... my point is that writers like Millar, Morrison, Ellis, etc. are promoted not simply as good writers, but as radicals shaking up the staid order of trad comics. And when it comes to gender/sexuality, that's absolute shit, whatever their other merits may be. The new issue of the Authority has to be the best example - yes, I am very shocked by the overtly sexual nature of the horrible things you are doing to women. And I am sure that the notion of a superheroine as one's personal domestic/sex slave is something that would never have occurred to the average comics reader otherwise. Indeed, truly it is a radical confrontation with the entrenched sexism of superhero comics.

I am not complaining that there shouldn't be semen in comics. I am complaining that in these 'cutting edge' comics it's the woman who gets covered in sperm, the gay man who gets anally raped by the supervillain, the teen girls making sexualised use of their psychic powers. In fact, I am not even complaining, I am just bored. If you think the reasons for the semen-covering are more interesting than the semen-covering itself, perhaps the reason the straight guys seem to be sexually inviolate might be worth consideration as well (surely the most improbable sentence I've ever written?)

Incidentally, the argument 'if you don't like Grant's X-Men, find me a better X-Men comic' is completely absurd. 'If you don't like Coke, find me a better multinational corporate cola drink!' And assuming that because I'm critical of the sexual politics, I don't enjoy the comic, is similarly mistaken.

Matthew Fluxington

09:04 / 19.12.01

I am not complaining that there shouldn't be semen in comics. I am complaining that in these 'cutting edge' comics it's the woman who gets covered in sperm, the gay man who gets anally raped by the supervillain, the teen girls making sexualised use of their psychic powers. In fact, I am not even complaining, I am just bored. If you think the reasons for the semen-covering are more interesting than the semen-covering itself, perhaps the reason the straight guys seem to be sexually inviolate might be worth consideration as well (surely the most improbable sentence I've ever written?)

I agree with every word of that. I have nothing else to add to that... You've articulated what I've been trying to say about how I felt about the last issue of the Authority (and other trends in comics it is indicative of) far better than I, thank you.

'If you don't like Coke, find me a better multinational corporate cola drink!'

well, there's always Pepsi...

[ 19-12-2001: Message edited by: Flux = American Aquarium Drinker ]

The Natural Way

09:04 / 19.12.01

Actually, Pirate, I didn't realise who you were (Jackie?), so I was assuming yr criticisms were operating on another level. Basically, there's loads of kids on other boards reducing Morrison's writing to "shock tactics" - I just don't agree with that. So it was kind of a reflex, knee-jerk reaction. I CAN see why someone might have a problem with Morrisons/Millars portrayals of gender. ALtho' I'm not sure the Jean thing is a product of Morrison's latent need to degrade women (I'm quite inclined to believe him when he says it's necessary for story purposes), but I also don't really think mouthing off about it is a good starting point re getting yr comics into the hands of the grownups/mainstream. Yeah, so I thought you were complaining about semen in comics: I was wrong. Sorry.

One more thing. When I hear people who, often quite rightly, complain about this sort of thing in Morrison and Millar's writing, I sometimes wonder why they don't aim their very eloquent criticisms somewhere in the vicinity of grant-morrison.com.....
It'd be refreshing to see Grant tackle some REAL criticism.

[ 19-12-2001: Message edited by: Guns 'n' Runces ]

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:04 / 19.12.01

quote:Originally posted by Guns 'n' Runces:
I also don't really think mouthing off about it is a good starting point re getting yr comics into the hands of the grownups/mainstream.

Maybe some people have different priorities?

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

09:04 / 19.12.01

quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
Come on! As long as it's a great splash page that is designed so that all us fanboys/girls can fantasize and masturbate over it it'll be great!!

Shurely "splash-proof page"?

The Natural Way

10:31 / 19.12.01

Fly, I hope yr not suggesting the promise of cum-shot sequences are gonna propell Grant's book into the mainstream.... God, you'd better be wrong....

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:37 / 19.12.01

Oops, sorry, completely misunderstood what you were saying: I thought you were telling Crunchy, "stop complaining or we'll never make comics cool!" - I get you now, and I agree entirely.

16:24 / 19.12.01

I can't ever seem to get this board to load a whole thread page so I'm kind of juming into this thread blind. But I'll jump anyway.

Just to clarify what I was getting at earlier. I like Morrison, I like the X-Men, I like Morrison's X-Men. If you don't like the X-Men though, I doubt you would like Morrison's X-Men. And in my opinion, with the exception of the fill in artist issues slowing things down, I do think Morrison's X-Men is the most interesting since Claremont in the 80's. Since back before the multiple titles at least.
Everyone is welcome to criticize it and or hate it. I just get a little defensive. I guess everytime someone criticizes it, I start getting dreadful thoughts of Marvel bringing Lobdell back.

Hey, is it a sin to want your favorite writer to write a comic you used to love?
I know its fanboyish so feel free to steal my milk money if you like.

Matthew Fluxington

20:11 / 19.12.01

Sandfarmer... you're not alone. I read the X-Men for years, and having one of my favorite writers have free reign on it is like a minor dream come true for me. It's a nice gift for my bizarre loyalty, I suppose...

20:58 / 19.12.01

>>>If you don't like the X-Men though, I doubt you would like Morrison's X-Men. <<<

Not true - I've never been interested in the X-Men until now.

Matthew Fluxington

09:03 / 20.12.01

Cameron, do you know anything about them trying to get Frank to do 3-4 consecutive issues again, a la E Is For Extinction?

I'd prefer it if Grant started arranging the stories so that Frank would draw a story from beginning to end, and then other stories would be drawn by someone chosen especially for that specific story...

Germ Free Generation is going to be totally incoherant in trade format...from Yu's sideways pages (nevermind that they were all poorly drawn) to Van Sciver to Kordey, then Frank's silent issue... it'll look a mess, and the story really is a bit lacking, and difficult to understand outside of the context of the ongoing storyline. Germ Free Generation doesn't even seem like anything more than a glorified subplot...maybe it'll look better in retrospect, who knows...

The Natural Way

09:03 / 20.12.01

It's just a slower, smaller story. It's the TV movie to E is For Extinction's widescreen blockbuster type vibe. In light of this, it would have been vastly improved by slightly better art. To be honest, I wouldn't have really minded if Sciver had managed to finish it, but Kordey....no, he's just not "poppy" enough. I sound like a wanker saying that, but that's just what I'm used to now. Anyway, I'm not sure yr gonna see the annual collected in the next trade. Maybe. And I completely agree - it's gonna look a mess. Something has to be worked out to make sure the art's more consistent - I think yr onto something there, Flux.

Basically, this is all a bit shoddy. And it IS unprofessional - NXM is one of Marvel's flagship titles, for God's sake.

[ 20-12-2001: Message edited by: Guns 'n' Runces ]

09:03 / 20.12.01

in retrospect it might have been better to have schiver do the whole of germ free generation and kordey do the issue inbetween e is for and germ...

The Natural Way

09:03 / 20.12.01

Yes, but Sciver couldn't get it done on time.

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