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Invisibles: The Special Edition

 
  

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Seth
21:07 / 13.12.01
OK, just a quick disclaimer. This thread isn't about the Invisibles. There is no new Invisibles product claiming to be a "Special Edition."

It's just inspired by some of the comments in the DK2 thread (I've seen them elsewhere, also). The idea that a comic's art and script go hand in hand, but sometimes the quality of one will counterbalance the deficiencies of the other.

So... if it's the script that's worth its wieght in gold, would any of us have problems with updated versions of an existing comic with new, improved art? How can this be done in practise? Would there be a market? Has it been done already? Which comics would you like to see overhauled? And is bad comic art just aethetically displeasing, or is it only bad when it gets in the way of the narrative?
 
 
The Natural Way
21:13 / 13.12.01
It'd be nice to see vol 3 no 2 of the Invisibles without the fucked art.

Cover versions.....hmmm....
 
 
The Natural Way
21:15 / 13.12.01


[ 14-12-2001: Message edited by: Gun Runce ]
 
 
sleazenation
21:17 / 13.12.01
isn't this in effect an equivelent of the film remake?
 
 
rizla mission
11:24 / 14.12.01
yeah.

I can't see much point in re-drawing a comic that's already got excellent art - but if it's a good script with messed up / poor quality art, it might be worthwhile.
 
 
DaveBCooper
11:31 / 14.12.01
Do you mean with entirely new artists working from the original script, or with the original artist(s) re-doing their material ?

If the latter, I guess it’s not entirely unprecedented – one of the Sandman volumes contains a few extra pages that the comic couldn’t fit in for reasons of space, and I think that when Kitchen Sink were reprinting The Spirit in the 1980s they couldn’t get hold of a printable version of one story, so Will Eisner found a copy of his pencils and re-inked it(about 40 years after the first time).

I think that the best comics are almost like the best books, succeeding when you forget that you’re reading, and when neither the writing nor the art ‘gets in the way of the story’ – nor the lettering or colouring, come to that. Alan Moore once said (about V for Vendetta) something to the effect that it was the point where his twisted sensibilities met with David Lloyd’s, and that there was no question of him working on it with any other artist (Tony Weare’s contribution notwithstanding). Sometimes, that can be the case of a single person with one vision – Eisner, again, would be a great example – or two people bringing their own particular visions and abilities to the work to create something more than the sum of its parts (Watchmen, for example); the comic version of Lennon-McCartney, if you will.

It would be interesting to see something like The Invisibles V3 #2 re-drawn, though not necessarily for reasons of ‘not finding the art aesthetically appealing’ or whatnot, but rather because – as was painfully clear from the script pages Cameron Stewart posted at this very forum, IIRC – many of the artists failed to put in details which were in Grant’s original script. Sometimes they were details which would have added extra depth and resonance, but on more than one occasion they were important to the plot, and the culmination of Grant’s work in the series. This, I feel, is something that the editor should have caught, and dealt with before press time (such as when David Bishop sent back a Frank Miller Dredd cover, intended for a Judge Dredd Megazine anniversary issue, because he wasn’t happy with it). But in real terms, I think that re-doing anything like this would probably be fairly badly received by the original artist – it reflects badly on their ability, the same way as the recent re-edits of Star Wars Episode 1 did on Lucas and the others who worked on the film; they’re unlikely to welcome it.

But any re-draws would have to bring substantial ‘new elements’ to it, or it would just be a case of cover versions, really – why bother with the Emma Bunton cover version when it so singularly fails to do anything different from the Edie Brickell original, if you see what I mean.

Final thought : have there been any examples of such a complete re-draw which haven’t involved the original artist(s) ? I feel certain there must have been, but can’t think of any offhand. But it is Friday, and I feel sleepy…

DBC
 
 
Rev. Jesse
12:21 / 14.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Gun Runce:
[QB]It'd be nice to see vol 3 no 2 of the Invisibles without the fucked art.[QB]


What, like the last two pages?

(Yes, I know who drew those, I am trying to be funny, give me a break damn it!)
 
 
sleazenation
13:08 / 14.12.01
the only instance i can think of is the manga version of star wars versus the marvel version- and these are both adapted to comics scripts from a film script, so maybe they don't count...
 
 
[N.O.B.O.D.Y.]
14:03 / 14.12.01
I think it has been done in a Batman anniversary. This was a special where many authors gave their version of the first Batman story; something about a chemical plant or something like that.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:08 / 14.12.01
No, Reverend, what Dave said.

It's just occured to me that there must be invissy fans on Barbelith who never got to see the original scripts when Cam originally posted them. Oh, how we raged....
 
 
DaveBCooper
14:41 / 14.12.01
Yup, N.O.B.O.D.Y. is spot on – various versions of ‘The Case of The Chemical Syndicate’ in a Detective Comics special about ten years ago (celebrating 60 years of Batman or somesuch). Four of them, IIRC. I think I liked the 1960s version best:

Batman arrives on scene. Groovy 60s guy, suspected of crime, objects to presence of obvious representative of ‘the man’.
G60sG : “Well, now it really looks like ‘Big Brother and the Holding Company’. Hah ! I bet you didn’t even get the reference !
Batman : I don’t think Janis Joplin would appreciate being called ‘Batty’.
Robin (thinks) : Ha ha ! I knew Batman had been digging some of my records !

Okay, I’m paraphrasing, but it was … well, quite the swinging scene.

However, these versions invited other writers to re-interpret the original tale, and I guess expressionless was driving at re-dos on the art side only ?

DBC
 
 
Dan Fish - @Fish1k
15:52 / 14.12.01
John Byrne's Spider Man year one?

According to Eddie Campbell's site, some of 'From Hell' was redrawn - I think he added hats to the characters or something like that.

- Danny -

Comics 4 sale @ www.fish1000.freeserve.co.uk
 
 
Seth
08:31 / 16.12.01
Well, I guess it could involve partially rewriting it as well. There's quite a precedent with that sort of thing in music, with artists recording updated versions, remixes, live reinterpretations, etc.

What if a writer felt he hadn't done justice to his ideas first time round, and decided to release a "directors cut?"
 
 
Jack Fear
11:45 / 16.12.01
Recycled Neil Gaiman pieces popped up in Caliber's anthology NEGATIVE BURN with alarming frequency--visual re-interpretations of "Luther's Villanelle," "Babycakes," and other prose & poetic pieces now exist in multiple versions.

Sometimes, I think the "Director's Cut" technique might be a way to get Alan Moore's BIG NUMBERS completed: the series was scripted up through #5 and extensively outlined.. rather than deal with the twin debacles of Bill Sienkiewicz and Al Columbia and trying to find an artist who can step into their shoes with minimal break of continuity, it would be better, thinks I, to have an entirely new artist re-draw #1-2 and then produce the rest of the series.
 
 
CameronStewart
11:56 / 16.12.01
>>>But in real terms, I think that re-doing anything like this would probably be fairly badly received by the original artist – it reflects badly on their ability....they’re unlikely to welcome it.<<<

Aww, too bad. I think editors should be a little stronger-willed in requesting improvements to the artwork, and any artist who has their feelings hurt shouldn't be in the freelance commercial illustration game.

More often than not, though, it's the monthly schedule that prohibits revisions - in the case of Invisibles 3:2 the book was spectacularly behind schedule and there was literally no time to redo pages without having to pull the book from the schedule and resolicit, which is a hugely undesirable scenario. I'm surprised at the number of books on which I've worked that have been months behind schedule and have had to be rushed to complete.

I think Frank Miller tweaks his stories when they're collected - adding pages, redoing ones he's not satisfied with, etc etc. I know this to be the case with several of the Sin Cities and 300...
 
 
Seth
12:20 / 16.12.01
Hey, Cameron: if we do a whip round for payment, how about producing our very own Invisibles Barbelith Gold Edition? It would take a while, but I'm sure everyone would think it was well worth it (obtaining permission to do it would be another matter).

This is a well intentioned joke. But I would seriously love to re-read it with more consistent art.
 
 
Mr Tricks
19:19 / 17.12.01
well... while we're at it... let's reformat it as an eZine-comic...
 
 
sleazenation
19:28 / 17.12.01
personally I'd love to see cameron's version of the whole of 3.2, although i'd rather see him meet rent and other considerations with PAYING work...

Yeah like Cameron says, in theory editors retain the right to refuse payement and recomission a piece of work, but this rarely happens due to the pressures of monthly etc. deadlines.


incidentally The Adventures of luther arkwright by bryan talbot has undergone several significantr revision in the ten years it took to publish with pages being re worked and placed in different orders, and subsequent relewases including an extra page or two...
 
 
Tamayyurt
03:23 / 18.12.01
quote: It's just occured to me that there must be invissy fans on Barbelith who never got to see the original scripts when Cam originally posted them. Oh, how we raged...

::GASP:: I NEVER SAW THIS!
 
 
The Natural Way
06:26 / 18.12.01
And I doubt you ever will...

Think Cam got in trouble for all of that. Shame.
 
 
Tom Coates
07:26 / 18.12.01
Were they lost in one of the great purges? Shame... Grant's got some things on his site hasn't he?
 
 
Lee
11:28 / 18.12.01
Um, the script extracts from 3.2 can still be found at The Bomb, part of the annotations for that issue.
 
 
CameronStewart
12:30 / 18.12.01
>>>Think Cam got in trouble for all of that. Shame.<<<

I got a bollocking more for my rather unforgiving commentary on the issue, than for posting the script (though I'm sure that was part of it).

Live and learn...
 
 
Chubby P
13:54 / 18.12.01
Didn't Marvel do this very thing. I'm sure a few years ago they were bringing out remix comics of old sixties comics such as the first issue of The Fantastic four. I can't remember what they were called though. Anyone know?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
17:13 / 18.12.01
re. inviz vol 3 no.2

man - that eclipse shocker fuckup!

ridgeway must be punished.

pander bros did fine - yes. they did. leave it.

ashley wood bloke should have his scrotal sac removed. and tongue cut out. (he'd still be able to draw, so chill out eachotherfuckers)

just remembered: miller in DK2 is givin it McMahon massive feet render, inny?
 
 
Tom Coates
22:40 / 07.08.06
Has anyone got a scan of this art anywhere? Relatively high quality? A friend wants to have Jack entering the supercontext and seeing everyone as caterpillars in his presentation to some large design conference and I'm inclined to help him out with this objective as it's a nice image - turtlenecks + supercontext = mind-blowing professional event. Send it to me tom@ the name of this site if you've got it, or PM me as soon as you can - I thought it was online somewhere, but I've been digging around for hours and can't find it.
 
 
The Falcon
23:03 / 07.08.06
Cameron's reworked pages are available in Dan Fish's Lost & found section, Tom, in a zip file.
 
 
Mug Chum
00:14 / 08.08.06
Oh I'd definitly go with a entire Invisible Kingdom by Frank Deus Ex Pencil Quitely (altough I love Bond's bits and the other guy that did the one with Sade in the middle of 3rd volume). But imagining FQ's art and Jamie Grant's color in the entire last year would be definite proof of the Cool God being dowloaded through firing itself at the past from the future.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
08:53 / 08.08.06
several years after the event I'm more at ease with the lazy clunt ridgeway's eclipse shocker gaff extroadinaire.

these days, in fact, I think Invisibles is fine da way it is.

and that's including all the shite work done by jill 'shakey-hand' thompson. (tho for lord fanny trilogy book one stuff her art is excellent full stop I reckonsis)

love cameron stewpot's art and love the quitely too but what makes the invisibubbles work is its shambollockiness.

you know, funny thing - at the time I remember pure slaggin off 70sman for saying there should be a division x spin off series, but man, I need some new invsibles stuff. I'd love to catch up with dane actually, see what the wee prick is up to.

and edith - best girl there evah was, will be, is

and quimper . . . quimper was a great wee guy.

quimper! quimper! quimper! ooo ooo ooo ooo
 
 
Mug Chum
14:37 / 08.08.06
We should have the new special edition (that Morrison mentioned at one time) through Edith's past adventures. We'd get signs from nowadays's Dane, Fanny, Rags... all through her 50ies-70ies f*&#ed-up journeys. And maybe even a bit after 1920 or a bit earlier (Dane or Fanny goes to 1919 and recruit her. Or a thirty-somethin' Eddie goes into 2009 and get to know Rags).

Edith was the best.
 
 
Sylvia
06:23 / 09.08.06
Man, I'd settle for the full script of the Invisibles, start to finish, with annotations by Morrison (a la the special edition of Arkham Asylum). Thanks for the link to the Fish1000 page - I love this stuff.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
08:18 / 09.08.06
An edith mini-series.

God, it's all so ultra isn't it?
 
 
Jack Fear
11:18 / 09.08.06
Let it go, man. It was a long, long time ago.
 
 
adamswish
11:58 / 09.08.06
I'm surprised no-one's mentioned that the artwork for vol3:2 was "fixed" in the trade paperback and after a quick check it was Cameron who added the new artwork into the book.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
03:34 / 10.08.06
Man, I'd settle for the full script of the Invisibles, start to finish, with annotations by Morrison (a la the special edition of Arkham Asylum).

well, there's this pretty cool:

 
  

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