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comic wins book award shock.

 
  

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sleazenation
07:12 / 07.12.01
Following on from my thread about the Chris Ware collection being nominated for the Guardian first book award Is this news that he has won it
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
08:45 / 07.12.01
OH NO.
 
 
Sax
08:45 / 07.12.01
Why "oh no"?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:45 / 07.12.01
Interview with Ware here.

quote:"Would it be wildly inappropriate to call it a symphony?" asked one American interviewer. "Well it wouldn't necessarily be inappropriate," replied Ware, "but it would sound really pompous."

Like all the best writers he seems exactly like someone from his own books, too: incredibly glum and insecure, with a round head.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
10:49 / 07.12.01
quote:Originally posted by hi - i'm zack of the harlem heroes:
OH NO.



Sax - being a bit sarcastic really, I'm pleased for Ware etc. Generally I'm a bit jaded by this kind of fanfare in regard to the expectations of 'comic readers' on the back of such awards.

I did a big rant in an associated thread which was part wind-up part genuine bile.

I'm a confused fanboy is all.

And I hate the whole Guardian/Channel 4 axis of cool too.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:09 / 07.12.01
Yeah, the Joe Wiley brigade, don't we love Robbie and look at all our celebrity mates, brigade....
 
 
Sax
11:28 / 07.12.01
Not quite sure how a comic winning a prestigious book of the year award in a national newspaper correlates with the London-centric cult of celebrity. Or why comic readers should have any expectations on the back of it. What do you expect, or what do you think it is expected that you as a comic reader should expect? That people start taking the X-Men seriously as literature?
 
 
The Natural Way
11:34 / 07.12.01
Doesn't tie in at all, really. But I'll never miss an excuse to cuss something.
 
 
The Knowledge +1
11:34 / 07.12.01
What do you expect, or what do you think it is expected that you as a comic reader should expect? That people start taking the X-Men seriously as literature?

Ah, yes?!?
 
 
Sax
11:37 / 07.12.01
Even Grant Morrison would be appalled at the idea. This is the man who advocated that people read The Invisibles and then throw them away, remember.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
11:59 / 07.12.01
sax - don't be too daft. Every so often a comic book comes along and supposedly changes the public perception of what the medium is.

It leads to a few months of attention in which the spotlight is focused on the 'comics world' and there follows a debate concerning the validity of the medium.

This is all well and good until the average joe decides to pursue this and visit a comic book store only to be confronted with a medium fleshed out quite literally by a single genre - superheroes - christ even jimmy corrigan's got em.

I don't expect anything to happen as a human being or a comic book 'fan'.

As for the meeja axis of snot, don't get me started.
 
 
Sax
12:02 / 07.12.01
You talk about all that as though it's a bad thing. Why? And the comic medium is practically a one-trick pony, and that's superhero comics.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
12:05 / 07.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Sax:
Even Grant Morrison would be appalled at the idea. This is the man who advocated that people read The Invisibles and then throw them away, remember.


look sax sorry for being so aggressive but jeez, can we all drop the reverential treatment doled out to Morrison.

he's well know for his bullshitting.

EVEN Grant will tell you that.

As for the chuckaway yer comic shtuff, he poached that from Reverso Brendan.

natch.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:18 / 07.12.01
I don't think there's that much of a fanfare about this particular award win; I mean, it's natural that the Guardian will go on about it because it's their award. But I also don't think that anyone is going to read Jimmy Corrigan and then go looking for more exactly the same - I reckon that most people (certainly the sort of people who are going to read Jimmy Corrigan) know enough about comics to realise that they are not all like Jimmy C., and that the superhero is the staple of the genre.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
12:21 / 07.12.01
andwhile I'm at it. GM's a millionaire - maybe he can afford to throw away stuff he buys without batting an eyelid.

and do you advise people to chuckaway their corrigan hardbacks once they've read them?
 
 
Sax
12:22 / 07.12.01
No. I advise them to give their copies to pensioners who can burn them in winter.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
12:30 / 07.12.01
fairnuff - actually I'd like to say I'm arguing for the sake of it - bored out my skull doing a building warrant application on a hotel my office is designing.

yawn.
 
 
The Knowledge +1
12:37 / 07.12.01
Really? What hotel? Tell me more.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
12:44 / 07.12.01
http://www.murraydunloparchitects.com/case_home.htm

click on radisson hotel for pictures.

why are you interested?

its in glasgow for fucks sake.
 
 
Captain Zoom
13:17 / 07.12.01
So Ware gets accolades and then whoever runs this award will say "Hey, that's not a real book, it's a funny book for kids" and they'll change the rules so that graphic literature can't be nominated any more. A la World Fantasy Awards and Neil Gaiman.

Zoom. (feeling pessimistic)
 
 
sleazenation
13:39 / 07.12.01
Actually, as kitkat implies, the Guardian are sometimes pretty enlightened when it comes to comics - they pre-seriealised Posy simmonds graphic novel 'Gemma Bovary' they also did a pretty sad piece sending a woman journalist into forbidden planet to meet comic fans...
 
 
Captain Zoom
15:13 / 07.12.01
Where o where can I read that peice? I bet it was soooooo funny.

Zoom.
 
 
CameronStewart
16:43 / 07.12.01
Thinking about it, why is a comic winning a book award anyway? I mean, I think it's great that Ware is getting some cash and public recognition for his efforts, but comics and books are different artforms. Comics have more in common with films than books (being that visual image is the primary storytelling device - particularly a comic like Jimmy Corrigan, in which there are far more pictures than words), but they're not going to start handing out Oscars and BAFTAs to cartoonists any time soon...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:02 / 07.12.01
Maybe that's where the problem lies - the mainstream just don't know how to take comics, or refuse to acknowledge them as an art form in and of themselves. They feel the need to force them into a more readily-accepted category.
 
 
Captain Zoom
18:12 / 07.12.01
Cameron, I'm not sure I'd agree that pictures are the primary story-telling device in a comic. I usually find myself more a fan of the words in a comic. Hence I am very interested to see the reaction to Marvel's Nuff Said, since there won't be any words. Seperating words from pictures in a comic would be like seperating dialogue from action in a film, though less succesful. I just don't find a silent comic to be as satisfying as a comic with words. I think it's a preference thing, but I also think I've lost my train of thought so please just ignore me.

Zoom.
 
 
CameronStewart
18:43 / 07.12.01
>>>Cameron, I'm not sure I'd agree that pictures are the primary story-telling device in a comic.<<<

They are. A comic without words is still a comic. A comic without pictures is not.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:45 / 07.12.01
I'm with Cameron, it does comics little good as an artform to be given special awards by critics of distinctly different creative mediums. Comics are not movies, they are not books, they are not music, they are not radio...comics is a medium unto itself, and that fact should be acknowledged. It's nice that the book folks would like to honor Ware and his work, but following that logic they may as well have special awards for tv and threatre too while they're at it.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
18:48 / 07.12.01
regarding the film/comic theory:

if we're all to suck morrison's brain then we should accept that comics are more like singles; shiny, disposable and

POP!

regarding the award:

jimmy corrigan is acceptable because it looks like a book (hardback etc.) and the award covers literature, which corrigan arguably is. One of the judges describes it as commenting on the nature of lit in the 21 Cent.

now, if the gradian (sic) decided to award Eclipe Publishing's classic 1984 fare, Strange Days (issue 2), then I'd be a happy man. Shiny, INDESPENSIBLE pap POP. Go and buy, if you can find.

Y'see I love the monthly thing. I honestly prefer the format to trades. Okay the adverts are awful etc. but I'm a magazine man at heart.

I don't think the argument that the 32 page comic is only in existence as a result of the battery farm system of the thirties blah etc. washes really.

Every (goddam) thing on the face of the planet is the result of some system or other - and some of those things turned out to be pretty good.

snuff ded the lottahya.
 
 
Captain Zoom
18:58 / 07.12.01
Good point Cameron. Hadn't looked at it that way.

Zoom.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
19:13 / 07.12.01
flux and cameron - I've been cussin this award for the same reasons really.

it perpetuates the medium as an oddity...

...but as for your point about medium based awards - there are already loads of comic book gongs to grab.

except the mainstream doesnae ken them and isnae fuckin interested and the shite-in comic book industry does fuck aw to popularise them.

and cameron - when can I score yer scotch opera scribbles? - Is it a Glesga thing (Glasgow based production)?
 
 
Jackie Susann
19:52 / 07.12.01
I think you have all gone crazy.

How are comics not books? What weird definition of books do you have? Printed on pages, between covers - sounds like a book to me. Children's books are full of pictures; yet somehow, still books. Design books are full of pictures; again, oh my god, still books. Do you equally object to the phrase 'graphic novel'? 'Comic book'?

Virtually all kinds of books have their own awards, from philosophy to science fiction to cook books. So do comics. Yet all of these - well, maybe not cook books - are also contenders for more general book awards. This isn't a way of pissing on their generic specificity, its a way of recognising their merits and promoting forms of literature people may have been dismissing or unaware of.

quote:comics is a medium unto itself, and that fact should be acknowledged.

Sure, and it is. Eisner Awards, hell, even Wizard awards. But to most of the public, such awards are a joke; nobody who's not already a comics geek is going to be impressed if you hand them a comic insisting, 'It's really good, it won an Eisner!' 'Oh, it won a comic award. Great, I'll start on it right after I finish the new Don Delillo. Here, this issue of Soapy Tit Wank won the "best double penetration shot" category at this year's Hornies.'

Now, if comics' specific merits (and awards) are going to be taken at all seriously, the public - and in particular, the kind of educated public book awards are aimed at - need to accept the possibility that comics can be as good as 'regular' literature. Awards like this seem likely to advance this process; they're certainly not going to hinder it. If that can be established, then comics-specific awards would have some cred, because they wouldn't be awards for some sub-literary funny-book ghetto, they'd be the awards recognising excellence in a particular literary subgenre.

I fear that I disagree with large chunks of what I've just written, but the idea that comics aren't a kind of books strikes me as deeply nutty.
 
 
sleazenation
09:15 / 08.12.01
personally i don't think sequential images on their own are comics. But hey, what ever floats your boat.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
09:32 / 08.12.01
Okay: graphic novels/trades are *books*, this is true, but what I'm saying is that they shouldn't be reviewed as prose literature or lumped in with prose literature any more than prose literature should be with graphic literature.

They are different things, completely different artforms.

I'm the type of guy who also thinks that poetry and song lyrics aren't the same thing, okay?
 
 
Jackie Susann
09:48 / 08.12.01
Okay, then my less ranty point is that while prose literature is distinct from graphic literature, both are clearly sub-genres of 'literature', so it may sometimes be appropriate to treat them as such.
 
 
[N.O.B.O.D.Y.]
09:48 / 08.12.01
I have to agree with Cameron here. I've always thought that comics are way closer to movies than to books; maybe you could consider the script of a comic book as literature, just as plays are considered literature. But I think you would never put a movie or a theater play in the same box with literature.
 
  

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