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Underground > Comic Books >

Sam Kieth, sicko?

15:37 / 16.11.01

I've never seen anyone discussing Sam Kieth's comics here, but I'm assuming that some of you are at least vaguely familiar with them. Personally he's always been one of my favorite creators but time and again I find myself put off by his seeming fixation on sexual trauma. It's not the subject matter itself that bugs me, but his prevailing use of victimized women as protagonists. A strong case in point would be the new issue of Four Women in which a rape scene is presented in such a fetishistic manner that I found myself eerily reminded of R. Crumb's headless women stories. Could he just be exposing the violence against women that's been lurking at the heart of superhero comics for so long, or is there something more pathological at work? What can we read into the fact that he claims to prefer using female characters in order "protect" himself from trauma of autobiography?

16:27 / 16.11.01

In that case, one has to consider all the male characters Keith presents in his work. For the most part they are complete lunatics. Except that teacher in Zero Girl.

Autobiography sneaking in???

Zoom.

19:25 / 16.11.01

It has to be said that Amy Snooter came out of her trauma quite well in Zero Girl; What looked like was going to be deep trauma turned into a bitter sweet thing rather like the end of Lolita in tone.

And on a Nabokovian note;- The use of autobiography is to conceal, rather than reveal. Here was a man who could use a fiction suit.

I am disturbed by issue two of 4 Women but I think this was the intention; and I loved the deep rationalism and zen like detachment of the women being set up for rape. We don't know what happens next of course. Yet. I feel the boundaries of this narrative are about to change.

Apart from this the only Keith I've got is a Maxx trade.

What else am I missing?

[ 17-11-2001: Message edited by: Ian Jones is not Luke Wing ]

19:54 / 16.11.01

Adam, did you read the issues where Mr. Gone recollects his life? I think those would redeem the (if they needed redeeming... I don't think that they did) the scenes you mentioned.

Sam Kieth may have fixations but that makes his work all the more powerful and real when it does work which it does not always but IMHO when it does it does so powerfully at least for me and his coterie of admirers. his art style did take some time for me to get used to.

his work has so much effect on me that when the present sequence of The Maxx ended I sat down and cried.

Ian, a Zero Girl trade came out just recently. and a second Maxx trade years ago.

11:45 / 17.11.01

Yes Keith's work features many women some of whom have been abused sexually some in other ways I can't think of a single one who i'd call a victim though.

Yes, Keith deals with issues of sexual violence, abuse and rape, but he also deals with feminism Jungian psychology and Dr. Suess...

On of Kieth's best selling points is he consistantly writes and draws well-rounded female characters - something that few writers - Including Warren Ellis and Grant Morrison can do...

oh and in case anyone wants to know
the main stuff keith has written (and there is a whole host of stuff he's just drawn including the first 4 issues of sandman)
I before E (2 issues)
The Maxx 1-35
Friends of Maxx 1-3
Zero Girl

15:36 / 17.11.01

I think maybe some of you, sleazenation in particular, are misconstuing my comments. I never ment to suggest that Kieth's characters aren't admirably well-rounded or that he fails to draw upon a good variety of deep and thought-provoking topics. What I am trying to address is the latent content in his work, those occasional moments in his work where I feel that the content is being undercut by its presentation. I'd say that the Mr. Gone issues of the Maxx that Ria mentions, along with the "Broad-Minded" story arc from friends of the Maxx rank among his most flawless works of storytelling in my mind. Of course these issues are the rare exceptions in which men are the traumatized ones.
I think the issues that really cemented my Kieth neurosis were those first few Friends of the Maxx issues in which I felt Kieth's very admirable attempt at writing a lesbian coming of age story were undercut by... just about everything. I know that it was a fairly well recieved story, but to me was probably the most contrived and sensational thing he's ever produced. I'm sure I'm just digging myself deeper here, but the whole thing seemed hugely dishonest. I'm sure that there was good story at the root of it, but in using women charcters, it felt like he failing to get his point accross. I couldn't identify with with the story's characters and I got the feeling that he couldn't either. I mean, the whole thing boiled down to a scene of being caught masturbating, which in itself is a very good and revealing bit of story, but come on, she was stuck in a hole in the wall of the school library watching Rebecca. It was just too ridiculously lurid to have the sort of serious impact that was intended.
Zero Girl seemed like a good return to form a la the Maxx, but ultimately the balance between the violence and the love story was too uneven. The incongruity made sense to me though when Kieth admitted that it was all about the fact that he met his future wife when he was in highschool and she was a teacher.

17:20 / 17.11.01

Adam we really seem to agree about which ones of his comics work the best.

you do agree that you chose a pretty strong subject line for this thread though? even if with the obvious humor there.

though I don't know anything about his working methods I think that he really does what his intuition tells him with less pre-meditation than with many artists and when it works it really really works.

I hope that Four Women will turn out as well as I hope that it will. I feel guilty but I did not like Zero Girl as much as his other more realistic work. I think he added the fantasy elements to make it sellable to Homage rather than because it worked.

Ellis

17:27 / 17.11.01

I thought Zero Girl should have been an issue longer. The scene in the diner seemed so tacked on it felt trivial.

And Four Women #2 disturbed the utter shit out of me. Which is a good thing i can only assume.

00:14 / 18.11.01

well, i still hink its not just the female characters that are disfunctional in keith's comics - its Everybody- frm maxx (a plumber who dresses like a superhero)- to tommy (the doof) and onto Gone.

but moving on from that Sam himself wasn't convinced the meggan story was working - and it was only after he got a load of letters he actually returned to the story. .. but then again i and the friend i've shown my maxx issues to (mainly women oddly enough) never seemed to think that it was seriously amiss... Which isn't to say it not... just i guess we were morer forgiving.

issue i for got to mention above the one shot entitles legs which coincidentaly enough focuses on men and cars

21:09 / 18.11.01

I’m not that familiar with his work, I’ll admit, though I thought Zero Girl was interesting, and an issue of The Maxx featured one of my favourite captions of all time : “Suddenly, Ten Years Later” (though this issue was co-written by Alan Moore, so it might not have been SK who wrote that, I guess).

Anyway, seeing as people posting here clearly know about The Maxx in some detail, what’re the opinions on the animated version ? I bought the video a few years ago, and whilst the ending seems a bit sudden, I found it a generally entertaining and interesting. I seem to recall that Kieth and Messner-Loebs were listed as the writers, so could anyone give me an idea of how close it is (in tone and content) to the comic series ? Just curious.

DBC

21:29 / 18.11.01

coming soon (probably in december's issue) in sequential tart) is a very good, in-depth interview with mr kieth. there are some pretty eye-opening revelations about his work and stuff, so look out for it.

10:04 / 19.11.01

the animated version remains pretty faithful to the comic -- even maintainting some use of panels the gust appearences of the savage dragon and the pitt are changed for obvious reasons. The biggest change is the maxx as gardener ending which is basically there to sort of explain some of his purpose and explore the idea of the maxx without julie (something which happens slowly in later issues in the comic)

16:55 / 19.11.01

I missed Four Women #2?!

glad I read this board.

and thank you for the tip Kooky.

and the MTV version of The Maxx... pure beauty. I cannot figure out why the video tape version of it lacks some of the most visually arresting shots (e.g. the close-up of the Leopard Queen's face as she speaks). I cannot believe that anything that good appeared on television.

[ 19-11-2001: Message edited by: Ria ]

05:18 / 16.12.01

And here is part 3.

One of the key things about King Lear (the play; Shakespear) is the way minor characters are urged to act to confront moral and physical badness, and by doing so personalize the audiences sense of affront.

So here. I have never been so morally engaged by a comic before, nor outraged by a characters passivity in the face of violence.

Because all this rings true. This is the good stuff.

I await the Sicko's work on the Hulk with great interest.

18:32 / 16.12.01

a must-reading (if you like his work) interview with the man has started here. I don't know if the second part has turned up yet.