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The Marvel Universe

 
  

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Cat Chant
12:01 / 01.11.01
Obviously, I'm reading Peter Milligan's & Grant Morrison's X-titles. There might be some spoilers for these below, depending on how many you've read.

Anyway, never having read any X-books before (bar a few issues of Xcalibur), I am confused by the fact that the editor on the Milligan letters page claims that both titles are taking place in the same universe, or something.

Can someone explain to me how consistent the marvel universe is? Actually, I'd be interested to hear about the history of the idea of a company's "universe" anyway, since occasionally terms like "The Crisis" are thrown about in discussions of DC (I think?) continuity and I have a dim memory of someone explaining to me that this was when they killed off a bunch of people and decided on cross-title consistency ('the universe').

Basically, I think I'm bewildered because Magneto appears to have died & Charles Xavier has outed himself, and I'd expect everyone in every X-book to be talking about this. God knows I can't go five minutes in the "real universe" without someone mentioning the World Trade Centre.
 
 
DaveBCooper
12:17 / 01.11.01
I gather that the two books you mention are meant to be happening in the same universe - as far as I know, the only Marvel superhero books which take place 'elsewhere' are the Ultimate titles.

DBC
 
 
sleazenation
12:18 / 01.11.01
well only speaking of x-force - most of the members of that team are so wrapped up in the cult of their own celibrity that they couldn't care less who came out as a mutant (except if it cut into their publicity) and since no members of the current x-force have ever been xmen/met magneto they're not particularly bothered by these events...
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
12:20 / 01.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Deva:
Basically, I think I'm bewildered because Magneto appears to have died & Charles Xavier has outed himself, and I'd expect everyone in every X-book to be talking about this. God knows I can't go five minutes in the "real universe" without someone mentioning the World Trade Centre.



both of those things have been mentioned in other X-comics---probably in some other Marvel comics too, I just don't look at any of those.

it's up to the invidual writer of those series to acknowledge the events of the other comics or not. I don't think it is all that necessary for the writers of the Hulk to really keep up on what's happening in X-Men since they have so little to do with each other and have different audiences for the most part. but Chris Claremont and Joe Casey have made mention of what has been happening in New X-Men, and New X-Men has made nods to X-Force...

trust me, you don't want the continuity to get any tighter than this. it's very bad for the comics to be too interconnected...
 
 
Captain Zoom
13:04 / 01.11.01
I'm in total agreement. I was talking to a guy a few days ago who told me he stopped collecting because all of a sudden (read:mid-nineties) every second x-title was continued in another title. Grant and Joe have promised this will not happen during their tenure. What was the term they were using, super-consistency? A cohesive universe that's simple enough to understand if you only read one of the titles, or indeed, one of the comics.

That said, I do like to keep up with what's happening in the DC and Marvel universes in general. I find that, as far as reaction goes to events in other titles the DC universe is superior. I suppose this stems from the fact that every member of their big team book has their own monthly title. Perhaps for the Marvel U the X-titles are not a good place to look for this kind of continuity. Looking to Avengers and then all of it's "spin-off" titles (Captain America, Iron Man, Thor) would give a better idea of the interconnectedness of various comics.

BAck over in the DCU however, it seems the writers are starting to get a little pissed off over the huge company-wide crossovers they're being forced to participate in. First "Our Worlds at War" and then a month later the big Joker thing (Last Laugh is actually a pretty funny series). You'd think they would have learned from Marvel's troubles in the 90's. But then, this is the company that seems to have alienated some of the best writers in the genre. One has to wonder.

Anyway, Deva, back ot the topic at hand. All Marvel's titles (except the aforementioned Ultimate line) occur in the same time-space continuum, so occasionally you'll see crossovers of events from book to book. More often than not, and depending on the creative freedom allowed the writer, events from other titles will only have faint ramifications on each other, if any. And considering Joe Queseda's carte blanche attitude to writers these days, the books seem to be drifting farther and farther apart.

God damn, I talk about comics far to fucking much.

Zoom.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:30 / 01.11.01
You would expect the death of eighteen million mutants (or however many died in Genosha) to have had some impact.

But yeah, what they said, basically. X-Force and New X-Men are clearly "shaking hands" a bit, with Wolverine turning up in the latest one, but continuity is perforce somewhat loose, since a vast number of tales have been told in the Marvel Universe and it is almost impossible to keep a tight grip on things. This is usually shown by characters not remembering having met before (because the researchers missed a particular issue of Marvel Comics Presents, say), or, in extreme cases, coming back from the dead. This is further complicated by "retcons" - bits of retroactive continuity which do not jibe with evgents in the past. For example, the retcon that Luke and Leia are brother and sister sort of jibes with a) Luke fancying her and b) Leia snogging Luke.

Thing is, Marvel have never had a "reboot", so all their characters exist in an eternal present, and will continue to do so, with history being forced to adapt. So, for example, Prof. X and Magneto first met in World War 2, then in Korea and finally in Israel in the 60s, IIRC.

"Crisis on Infinte Earths" was DC's attemnpt to deal with the fact that, partly as a result of being formed from a number of different comics imprints taken over at various times, their universe had become insanely complicated - There were, for example, two Supermen, one a reasonably tough cookie from the Justice Society of America and the other the ridiculously powerful superhero from the John Byrne reinvention - necessitating two different Earths to exist. Then add the Charlton heroes (Blue beetle, the Question etc), the Fawcett Heroes (the insanely populous Marvel family, whose villains were generally too fuckign stupid for any self-respecting hero to go near, so had an ambiguous relationship to the rest of the Universe), and basically a great big mess of entangled continuity developed over 50 years. The crisis was an attempt to resolve this, create a single consistent world, kill off the surplus characters and start anew. The fact that they had to have *another * one - Zero Hour - might give you an idea of how successfully it went.

Marvel, however, have never had one fo these, and as such all the books (except the aforementioned Ultimate line, the "What If.." books and the Transformers, way back when) theoretically take place in the same place. The "Heroes Reborn" farrago (in which, for reasons it is probably best not to go into, all the pre-X-Men heavy hitters were placed in a pocket universe) could have been such a reboot, but they cocked it, again IIRC.

Generally, you may as well just go with it.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:39 / 01.11.01
<geek on>The Transformers exist in the mainstream Marvel Universe, in theory. Spiderman showed up in an early issue, and remember that Death's Head went off and appeared in a few Marvel titles for a bit.<geek off, but not much>
 
 
sleazenation
14:46 / 01.11.01
<out geeking flyboy>

Transformers exists in a parallel universe with its own paralel spiderman-- and - rather more strangely - other superpowered beings that have no real equivelant

also Death's head was thrown through reality by unicron's time divice and then again a few times by DR Who before ending up in the mainstream marvel universe...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:46 / 01.11.01
Ah, but it was stated clearly in the editorial pages of the US comic that the Transformers do not share the Marvel Universe, presumably because it was utterly incredible that the invasion of Earth by giant transforming robots would not impinge upon the superhuman community.

This despite the appearance of Spiderman in an early issue, Death's Head in the UK issues, and Circuit Breaker in Secret Wars.

Transformers did, however, take place in the same universe as G.I.Joe.

Go figure.
 
 
MJ-12
15:58 / 01.11.01
So, what we really need is Secret Wars III, to straighten everything out, right?
 
 
grant
17:31 / 01.11.01
I *think* in Steranko's History of Comics, the concept of continuity came in sometime in the 1930s or 40s as a way for publishers to maximize profits - by having different heroes do crossovers every so often.
In order for Batman to show up in Superman #23 or whatever, they had to exist somehow in the same world.
And comics fans have loooong memories for that weird shit.
 
 
Cat Chant
19:12 / 01.11.01
quote:Originally posted by sleazenation:
also Death's head was thrown through reality by unicron's time divice and then again a few times by DR Who before ending up in the mainstream marvel universe...


Okay, is this true, or are we on some sort of Apocaloid trip now?

Thanks, everyone. This now makes sense to me, to an extent. It all feels very profit/company-led, though, as a couple of people have pointed out: a gimmick to allow spin-offs/crossovers/etc. Either fewer titles with tighter continuity, or a gazillion titles with no continuity would feel more intuitive. (Or - and you knew I'd mention it eventually - a sort of fanfiction model, with a core "canon" of continuity, but freedom for writers to fuck about with it - rather like I think GM did with the "Caulder (?name?) is Evil" issue of Doom Patrol)

General thoughts on the goodness or badness of universes/continuity, from either a writerly or a readerly perspective?

And - hang on - does this mean "Preacher" takes place in the same universe as "Shade" and "Sandman"? How come they all have completely different takes on angels, then? Or does Vertigo just not have universes? (Though John Constantine showed up in Shade...)

I return to my previous state.

 
 
tSuibhne
19:46 / 01.11.01
The best advice would be, don't think to hard about it. If you think to hard, then you realize it's all just a big mess.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
20:05 / 01.11.01
quote:Originally posted by MJ-12:
So, what we really need is Secret Wars III, to straighten everything out, right?


GEEKMAN! Well, actually Secret Wars III was a storyline that ran in the late 80's/early 90's Fantastic Four.

Ahem...

It does appear that Neil Gaiman will be writing a Secret Wars sized epic blah blah blah for Marvel in the near future. The proceeds of which will go to hiring people to beat the fuck out of Todd McFarlane.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
20:11 / 01.11.01
quote:And - hang on - does this mean "Preacher" takes place in the same universe as "Shade" and "Sandman"? How come they all have completely different takes on angels, then? Or does Vertigo just not have universes? (Though John Constantine showed up in Shade...)



Vertigo depends on the nature of the title. PREACHER, INVISIBLES, OUTLAW NATION and the like are creator owned and not in any universe. SWAMP THANG, HELLBLAZER, SANDMAN, the late SHADE, ANIMAL MAN, DOOM PATROL HUNTER, and others are all tenatively connected. (Although a character from SHADE showed up in the creator owned WITCHING HOUR series...)

Basicly I have an extremly poor view of anyone over the age of 16 you gets too wound up about universes and coninuity. It's one of the reasons I'm kind of liking the ULTIMATE line where continuity is a four letter word...
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
20:15 / 01.11.01
ALTHOUGH! The Invisibles did have some mild crossover with the JLA while Grant was writing both titles as Prometheus' "Crooked House" shows up in one pannel and there are several other similarities.

In fact, careful analysis shows that they're both the SAME FUCKING SERIES with different people wearing the clothes and hitting each other...

Oh, look! It's my nude Elektra veriant! Where's my plastic bag underwear?!

fdgfdgfdgfdgfdgfdg.fdgd..g.dfg.fd.gfd.gd
 
 
Cat Chant
20:32 / 01.11.01
quote:Originally posted by I Am:
The best advice would be, don't think to hard about it.


I am here to think too hard! Let's theorize the fuck out of continuity! Who's with me?
 
 
Perfect Tommy
09:04 / 02.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Deva:
Let's theorize the fuck out of continuity! Who's with me?

I am, but I'm a latecomer to comics, really, so I can't outgeek anyone at all

But, what the hell.

How about we figure out some continuity types? That is, how connected are a pair of random universes?

No Continuity, Explicitly
Buffy makes mention of an episode of "Sabrina, The Teenaged Witch". If Sabrina's show is mentioned in Buffy, then it exists as fiction in the Buffyverse, therefore they are not connected (at least, from the Buffyverse perspective -- who knows if Sabrina watches Buffy or not...)

Tenuous, One-Shot Continuity
I'm told that the Brady Bunch exists in the same reality as The X-Files. Richard Belzer (I think) appeared in a silly cameo in a Brady Bunch movie as his character from "Homicide", and he also appeared in a flashback episode of the X-Files as the same character, ergo, they occur in the same universe. (In one direction, at least--Mulder could mention an episode of the Brady Bunch as a TV show.)

Comic Continuity with Flexible Time
The Flash exists in his own comic and in JLA. So, obviously, he exists in the titles of all the members of the JLA. But The Flash can be in an issue of the JLA even when in his title, his legs are broken, because one assumes that the events in The Flash's title happened some time before or after that issue of JLA.

Comic Continuity, Inflexible Time
Time marches on in a number of titles at the same rate, and we get monthly updates. If a character's back is broken in his own title, it is broken in his team title and in any guest appearances until he recovers. The whole universe is really one title with multiple viewpoints.

I'm probably oversimplifying and/or missing some... comments?

[ 02-11-2001: Message edited by: doubting thomas ]
 
 
Jackie Susann
09:04 / 02.11.01
Well if we're going to combine comics geekery with theory geekery, isn't it like Derrida's Law of Genre? He says that The Law of Genre is that genres will not be mixed. But then there's the Law of the Law of Genres which says that the Law of Genres is always broken.

The Law of Continuity - all comics within a given universe will show consistency and non-contradiction.

The Law of the Law of Continuity - since dozens of writers are working on hundreds of stories constantly, the Law of Continuity will be continually broken in both minor and major ways. Only by observing the operations of the Law of the Law of Continuity will you be able to make any sense of the apparent operations of the Law of Continuity.

Note, this may or may not be an absurd bastardisation of Derrida' theory, which I've only heard second-hand.
 
 
moriarty
09:04 / 02.11.01
Ahem.

This is the 6 Degrees of separation thread we did awhile back. Linking disparate characters through their shared experiences.

In reply to a few of the points made above, I'm not convinced that an official company stand on continuity is very effective. As an example, I do consider the Transformers to be in the Marvel Universe, as well as GI Joe. What the Hell do I care about the Marvel party line. If they can use that excuse, tehn you could make the case that every title is set in its own parallel universe. Hey, remember when Wolverine was in X-Force recently. Nuh-uh. Didn't happen. That was Wolverine-Z, from the Platinum Age of comics.

Give me a fucking break. One Multiverse! Infinite Earths!
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
09:04 / 02.11.01
You know, I am STRONGLY against the concept of "Crisis" and "Zero Hour" or any of those things designed to clarify continuity issues. These things are only for those truly sad, anal retentive fanboys who miss the point of even having a collective story universe by lacking an imagination entirely.
 
 
Dr. Vital
09:04 / 02.11.01
quote:Originally posted by sleazenation:
<out geeking flyboy>

Transformers exists in a parallel universe with its own paralel spiderman-- and - rather more strangely - other superpowered beings that have no real equivelant

also Death's head was thrown through reality by unicron's time divice and then again a few times by DR Who before ending up in the mainstream marvel universe...


So, it is true!

<Sound of any attempt at making anysense of all this flying out the window>
 
 
the Fool
09:04 / 02.11.01
The Vertigo universe is sort of in the DC universe proper as well. Man-thing (or it that the marvel name of the same thing, it is!) sorry Swamp-thing is sort of in DCU proper. John Constantine featured in the Crisis of Infinite Earths. Animal Man seems quite happy to drift between the two as well...

I think the Marvel Universe, which once was the poster boy of continuity, is overly burdened with 40 years of unbroken 'now' and about 10 years of really stupid ideas (Heroes Reborn, the monthy X-tinction inferno massacre crossover chaos)

I think what crunchy said makes sense. Continuity : Yes, but also no.
 
 
moriarty
09:04 / 02.11.01
Keep in mind that Animal Man, The Doom Patrol, Constantine, etc. made the majority of their regular DC Universe appearances before there was a Vertigo proper. Then they were only Mature Audiences. For example, Grant Morrison never wrote a Vertigo Doom Patrol.
 
 
reidcourchie
09:04 / 02.11.01
Originally posted by Haus
"The Haus of Penitents Ah, but it was stated clearly in the editorial pages of the US comic that the Transformers do not share the Marvel Universe, presumably because it was utterly incredible that the invasion of Earth by giant transforming robots would not impinge upon the superhuman community.
This despite the appearance of Spiderman in an early issue, Death's Head in the UK issues, and Circuit Breaker in Secret Wars.

Transformers did, however, take place in the same universe as G.I.Joe.

Go figure."

Ah but in episode of Action Force the Quick Kick introduces a story about Shang Chi and talks about the best martial artists he's ever seen, including Iron Fist (?), Shang Chi later turns up in the X-men and Iron Fist is a minor Marvel character.

Deaths Head II then went onto join the marvel universe in yet another ill fated Marvel UK attempt.

Sorry I'm just being a geek because I happen to be able to remember this, this morning.

[ 02-11-2001: Message edited by: reidcourchie ]
 
 
Cat Chant
09:04 / 02.11.01
Now that's more like it, my doubting and crunchy friends!

A few random points:

Flux:

quote: You know, I am STRONGLY against the concept of "Crisis" and "Zero Hour" or any of those things designed to clarify continuity issues. These things are only for those truly sad, anal retentive fanboys who miss the point of even having a collective story universe by lacking an imagination entirely.

What is the point of even having a collective story universe, then? And at what point does continuity-obsession become anal?

Crunchy, I need to re-look-up the Law of Genre/Gender: I think the point was that the element within a text which marks its genre cannot be "within" the genre, and thus genres are always mixed. Not the Law of the Law but the internal incoherence of the Law (as per bloody usual.)

Moriarty: I'm interpreting your post to mean you think continuity (and/or discontinuity) is produced by the reader, regardless of the company's official line: the connections are up to us to make and cannot be imposed by a writer/editor?

doubting tom: I'm a latecomer too (given away by me constantly saying "vertigo" when I mean "DC"), also a patchy reader, so lack of geekery is good with me...

The Tenuous/One Shot continuity is interesting. Got any more examples?

Another example for me is: Buffy/Angel. Clearly set in the same universe (your Comic Continuity/Inflexible Time), but all sorts of inconsistencies spring up: where is the Higher Power in Buffy? If Wolfram & Hart have power across dimensions, how come they never show up a few hundred miles away from their HQ in Sunnydale? Etc. Also, of course, very different in tone, mood and feel - does this alter the "nature" of the universe? Or not? Does it not impact on continuity at all?

And finally, realist novels. Which depict a universe exactly like our own except that the novel itself doesn't exist (nor does the prequel, if reading a sequel to the novel). This used to fuck my mind up horribly when I was younger. Now I don't think about it too hard. (Similarly, Buffy works on the assumption that this *is* our universe - except with demons and *without* that popular show, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. No, it still hurts my mind to think about it.)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:04 / 02.11.01
quote:Originally posted by grant:

In order for Batman to show up in Superman #23 or whatever, they had to exist somehow in the same world.
And comics fans have loooong memories for that weird shit.


Indeed. The inter-company crossover is interesting, as it often involves groups who are the heavy-hitters of their respective universes, interacting in the same one, often with no explanation given whatsoever why, if they are interacting in the same universe, they have a) never mentioned each other, b) never encountered each other and c) never encountered any og the other universe's superheroes. They create, in effect, a localised continuity of the universe, the other option being to spend the first half of the book manouevring them into one or the other's universe (as I believe Morrison did on JLA/WildC.A.T.S).
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:04 / 02.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Deva:
Another example for me is: Buffy/Angel. Clearly set in the same universe (your Comic Continuity/Inflexible Time), but all sorts of inconsistencies spring up: where is the Higher Power in Buffy? If Wolfram & Hart have power across dimensions, how come they never show up a few hundred miles away from their HQ in Sunnydale? Etc.


And that's before we even get to the question of 'How Old Is Cordelia?'...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:04 / 02.11.01
Or, in another example, the X-Men and WildC.A.T.S were showcased in four issues devoted to the Golden, Silver, Modern and Dark Ages (of comics - the Dark Age was set in the "Days of Futures Past" alternate future, but with Daemonites).

This was yet cuter, since the X-Men had not existed in the Golden Age, and WildC.A.T.S had only existed since about 1991, but had a fictitious "generational" backstory. Therefore the fictitious (ie never having had a comic written about them) ancestors of the heroes in WildC.A.T.S interacting through these various ages with...er....the X-Men, but in different costumes.

Eeeenteresting. See also Muhammed Ali vs Superman, and the whole Amalgam thang. Oh, and the reenvisioning of heroes who are unlike the originals BUT HAVE THE SAME NAMES in the Ultimate and (more extensively) Tangent runs.

Other points of interest include the fact that the Giffen/Dematteis JLA had a licensing deal with a comics company to write comics based on their exploits, one of which is seen in the issue when Guy Gardner goes to a comics convention. The cover of the comic he sees is exactly the same as the cover of a previous issue of JLA. Ergo, one couold assume that the JLA comic exists in the DC Universe, and by extension that The JLA exist in ours.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:04 / 02.11.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Penitents:
The cover of the comic he sees is exactly the same as the cover of a previous issue of JLA.


And of course, the same thing happens in The Invisibles, when King Mob flicks through a previous issue of the comic at his ex in San Francisco's flat, and makes some remark about how the writer is stretching credulity a little...
 
 
Sax
09:04 / 02.11.01
What really fucked me up was when Superman met Perry Como.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:04 / 02.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Flyboy:


And of course, the same thing happens in The Invisibles, when King Mob flicks through a previous issue of the comic at his ex in San Francisco's flat, and makes some remark about how the writer is stretching credulity a little...



Christ, Morrison really doesn't have an original thought in his head, does he?
 
 
Sax
09:04 / 02.11.01
But the Invisibles didn't happen in any universe.
 
 
bio k9
11:45 / 02.11.01
My favorite example of continuity happened in a couple issues of Valiants Unity crossover.
In the X-O Manowar issue X-O was fighting a giant T-Rex and smashed through the walls of a prison. X-O and the dinosaur kept on going and you could see Archer and Armstrong looking dumbfounded then exiting through the giant hole in the wall.
In the Archer and Armstrong that month the guys were sitting in their cell talking about how they should try to get out when a guy in a liquid metal alien suit of armor and a T-Rex crash through the wall giving them a chance to escape.
Nicely done.
 
 
Sax
11:58 / 02.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Biolicious K9:
... and you could see Archer and Armstrong looking dumbfounded then exiting through the giant hole in the wall..


Ah, great music hall duos of our time.
 
  

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