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Corporate superhero spandex fanboy filth

 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:10 / 25.10.01
Some love it. Some hate it. Some reserve judgment until they have the chance to take a look at individual titles. Some follow creative teams and don't really care whether they're doing work-for-hire on trademark characters or creator-owned, brand-spanking-new original graphic novels.

As I see it, this argument falls into three overlapping but distinct areas:

1) Work-for-hire versus creator-owned. Which is better for creators? (That one's quite easy, financially anyway.) Is there a place for work-for-hire? Should we automatically consider a writer's work-for-hire material inferior to hir "own" stuff, or should we respect the wishes of creators even if they've always wanted to write a new, edgy take on ROM, SPACE-KNIGHT?

2) Superheroes. The rightful focus of the medium or a terrible, terrible mistake? Does the superhero genre have its advantages? What are its limitations? Can superhero comics appeal to a mainstream audience? Is there a place for them even when other, better stuff is getting the respect it deserves, or is the time for superhero comics forever past? Live and let live, or burn at the stake?

3) Fanboys. Fangirls. What are they? Is one preferable to the other? Is it wrong to be a fanperson? Should we shame them into ceasing their fanboyishness and buying only Safe Area Corrigan The Smartest Homicidal Marbles In My Underpants from now on, or teach them that in fact they are secretly the coolest people on earth and that X-Men comics can help them have sex (the Morrison Approach)?

What say you?
 
 
Perfect Tommy
15:41 / 25.10.01
I follow the writer. I liked the recent X-Force -- um, well, the one issue I read, because I am that broke -- but wouldn't have noticed it if Milligan weren't writing it.

So for (1), I am perfectly happy seeing what a writer I like does with someone else's creation as with their own. Important disclaimer: Since I didn't grow up with comics, almost every thing I read, whether it's work-for-hire or wholly original, it is probably new to me. No one's really able to tramp over characters I loved in the past, 'cause I didn't read them before. (A semi-exception is Spider-Man, but I have just always loved the character via osmosis, and never read the titles until somewhat recently.)

Regarding (2): I started reading, y'know, art (i.e. Sandman), and went on to superheroes when Morrison recovered from that illness and started writing 157 comics a month. I found superheroes more entertaining than I had expected (including non-Morrison titles, or titles which became non-Morrison). I've decided that I like the genre alright... but, I liked the idea of the movie Ghost World bringing comics to the masses more than I liked the idea of the X-Men movie doing the same. I would liken it to action movies vs. all film; there's nothing wrong with an action movie, but if the only things that are popular are action movies, huge segments of the population are being ignored unfairly.

I don't have anything clever to say about (3), really, except that a) the comic conventions I've been to have featured lots more women than I expected, and I've been led to believe (by Sequential Tart) that's a new thing, which makes me happy, and b) I stopped having sex before I started to read comics, I didn't have sex during my peak comics consumption, but now I'm sleeping with a girl with Wolverine and Sabertooth posters. I don't pretend to have any idea what that means.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:06 / 25.10.01
It comes down to three things:

(1) All things in moderation.

(2) Marketing is a zero-sum game.

(3) Bad money, as any economist will tell you, drives out good.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
17:31 / 25.10.01
i love super heroes. but not when they try to hard to be serious--IE DCs Worlds At War--
I mean come on, these are guys in tights for the love of god, and no one seems to think its silly
I enjoyed grants run on JLA cause it was funny a lot of the time, (See: Green Arrow Issue). I do also follow writers/artists, and enjoy Jimenez on WW and Grants Xmen as well as X Force.
As far a super heroe books i buy without looking at who wrote it, young justice is prolly the only one, and thats because i thought super boy was the coolest "Super" guy to come out of that whole thing, and Robin was my idol.
"Art" as it is, I read Lucifer, Poisen Elves (perhaps not art but def not corporate) and some other "high brow" titles, tyhe only diff i find when reading my bi monthly stack is i usually leave Transmet or other less action oreinted stuff for the end, unless i have Battle Pope, in which case i saev the laugh for last

On the point of fan grrls, i love my GF, but i doubt we would be together if after i gave her the first Invisibles TPB to read she finished and got really pissed when i told her they published the collections out of order and i didnt have the originals

my 2 cents

[ 25-10-2001: Message edited by: Elijah Non Grata ]
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
17:33 / 25.10.01
1) Work-for-hire versus creator-owned. Which is better for creators? (That one's quite easy, financially anyway.) Is there a place for work-for-hire?

I think that there is a place for both, and there's no reason why they shouldn't co-exist. While a lot of folks in the comics field go into it purely for work-for-hire, I don't think those are the people we're talking about here... we're talking about the super-creative types, right?

Well, it's pretty clear that a lot of those people do like to go back and forth between their own creations and others, and I don't blame them...there's a lot more at stake when yr making things up on yr own, and it can be very rewarding, but also very draining. It can also often not be very lucrative. I think that by doing work-for-hire with corporate owned icon/universe characters, creators have the opportunity to do a few very attractive things: They get the benefit of not having to come up with their own ideas, and not be punished for a lack of creativity. They can just fuck around with other people's creations, obviously a lot easier, but also fun and cool in a subversive sort of way if they happen to be working on popular icons like X-Men, Batman, Justice League, etc. In defense of writing corporate owned properties as an ambition, I've read some interviews with Mark Waid, and he's always saying that he wanted to 'give something back' to the characters he loved when he was a kid, and I think that's valid in its own sentimental sort of way.

Superheroes. The rightful focus of the medium or a terrible, terrible mistake?

Certainly not the 'rightful focus' of the medium, not by any stretch, but definitely not a mistake in any way. I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with superhero fiction than there is with any other form of fiction... sure, I tend to fucking hate Westerns, but it's a big mistake for me to write them all off, just the same with superheroes and those who put them down...

Does the superhero genre have its advantages?

Sure. it's great for a lot of power fantasy (which need not be a bad or unhealthy thing), it's great for its iconography, it's a wonderful outlet for subversion. on and on... there's a reason it has persevered through the past century in many different forms...

Can superhero comics appeal to a mainstream audience?

Are you kidding? They already do. That may not be matched by sales figures in relativity to other mediums like film and music, but superheroes are a big chunk of western pop culture, they have a huge universal appeal (at least in terms of concept and iconography), and in its most basic sense, it can potentially hold appeal for most anyone, it just depends greatly upon execution.

There is no good reason why superhero comics shouldn't exist, or shouldn't be really good fiction. The problems with the vast majority of superhero comics have a lot more to do with deficiencies in the comics industry and talent pool than it does with the concepts that make up the genre.

Just the same, there's no good reason as to why there shouldn't be a great ammount of variety in terms of what stories are told in the comics medium...I think that every year, this situation gets a little better, more and more diverse material gets published, and slowly gets recognized, and the success stories keep getting happier....think about the massive sales jumps Chris Ware and Daniel Clowes have been experiencing, the fact that their work is becoming more and more accessable in mainstream bookstores. Those two are a wonderful example of where I think the industry is headed in, whether it knows it or not.

Should we shame them into ceasing their fanboyishness and buying only Safe Area Corrigan The Smartest Homicidal Marbles In My Underpants from now on,

The thing is, it's a bit silly to begrudge superhero fans for not buying Chris Ware comics. There are issues of subjective taste at play....the odds of a Spawn fan being really into Adrian Tomine isn't nearly as likely as a fan of Robert Altman being into Harvey Pekar. You've got to get the comics to their appropriate audiences, and that means people who are aware of the comics actively recommending them to people who would be interested in the subject matter.

It's also not impossible (or even that weird) for the fans of the 'alternative' non superhero comics to also really like some superhero comics. It's probably a lot more healthy for people to have a broad interest and taste than a narrow one, don't you think?

[ 25-10-2001: Message edited by: Flux = whatever ]
 
 
Mr Tricks
22:34 / 25.10.01
Hmmm... nice thred:

1) Work-4-Hire vs. Creator Owned:
Well I am a definate fan of certain Creators, writers & artists... so I will tend to at least pick-up the initial issue of what-ever project they may embark upon.
I do also follow charactors, so I will tend to pick-up various books anyway, sometimes to my great disapointment sometimes not.

Thus I was sure to pick-up NewXmeN as well as X-Force, based simpy on my interest in thses creators' work. However whiel I'm a great fan of MADMAN I just wasn't all that interested in following his ATOMICS series. Still I found my self picking up a copy of eXtreme X-men for the lack of NewXmeN and a curiousity about what those charactors where up to... dismal.
Didn't Grant Morrison mention something about writing JLA to pay the bills & writing The Invisibles because it was his destiny to do so... A talented creator can bring new life to a tired charactor. Spiderman & Daredevil's recient revivals seem like good examples... & then of course NewXmeN.

2) Superheroes:
They have been a part of comic-culture for most of the 20th century. At their best, an integral aspect of our cultural mythology, at their worst mere titalation.
They should no more dominate the medium than say Soap-Operas should dominate T.V. or Action flicks should Dominate Cinema. Gradually the Industry is rising to that recognition. Still, the superhero genre has more readily adapted and intagrated aspect of almost any other genre in fiction. I personally enjoy that aspect of the medium most of all, from Pop-to-Horror-to-SciFi-to-Romance-to-Suspence-to-Crime-etc...

3) Fan-atic-ism:
Why worry... I go to the occasional convention & find them to be more & more fashionable... that's cool. But really what does it really matter comics isn't really a social activity. I read 'em for MY enjoyment, I welcome opportunities to turn other on-to something good or something I believe they will enjoy. Yet I wonder if that dude at the bustop waring the silk button-down shirt with the Spiderman silkscreen is remotely aware of any current storyline. Either way... it doesn't matter much to me...
My GF wasn't remotly into comics when we first met, as we've gotten to know each other she naturally took an interest in my interests & can now appricate an afternoon at a CON as well... she's got her own tastes.
 
 
No star here laces
08:35 / 26.10.01
work for hire/creator owned

Who gives a shit?

Why is it that comics fans have to obsess over the 'state of the industry' instead of just reading the comics? If it produces good product I don't really care who owns the work.

I'm sure there are a lot of benefits of work-for-hire for creators such as the fact that you can jump straight in to writing/drawing a character already rich in history and depth, or the fact that it's a guaranteed wage.

superheroes

what makes comics comics is that the story is told with pictures. Drawn pictures. And that one of the things that comics can do and no other medium can do is have a completely free reign to create a visually spectacular effect. And, clearly, one way to do that is to draw spectacular things happening. Which leads one to require extraordinary protagonists.

Haus could probably name 'em, but I seem to recall that the greeks thought there were only five types of story and that every tale ever told could be fitted into one of 'em. I think it was something like tragedy, comedy, romance, quest and another one. Anyway, strikes me a sizable proportion of stories need a central hero character to work.

A hero is an exceptional person, possibly someone who has a 'destiny'. In a religious era heroes were dignified by either a blood relationship to a god (mythology) or a particular religious conviction/messianic status. In our secular age this turns into a scientific and/or mystical justification for exceptional powers.

i.e. superheroes.

So if you want to be picky about it, any story involving someone exceptional is basically a superhero story of some sort. So, actually, it makes a lot of sense for comics to be about superheroes because this is one way to maximise the potential of the medium.

The only reason this is even an issue is this involvement in the industry that comics fans tend to have where superheroes are seen as an obstacle to the success of the medium.

Fanpersons

So long as they don't come near me, they can do whatever they want.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
11:38 / 26.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Tyrone Mushylaces:

what makes comics comics is that the story is told with pictures. Drawn pictures. And that one of the things that comics can do and no other medium can do is have a completely free reign to create a visually spectacular effect. And, clearly, one way to do that is to draw spectacular things happening. .


Okay, this jumped out at me: Why is it necessary for you that the images in a comic be *drawn*? Is it just because that's the way it's done 99.999% of the time?

This interests me mostly because at the moment, I'm working very hard on putting together comics with photography, it's a big undertaking, but I think it is a worthwhile idea to explore, if just to challenge the assumption that all comics need to be *drawn* with a pencil, pen, paint, or computer...
 
 
Mr Tricks
18:50 / 26.10.01
I've seen the Photo-comic done a few times... in fact VERTIGO just released a hard cover book done in this manner... don't racall the name.

I think it's doable... yet it calls to mind something I read in [b}Understand Comics[/b]
quote:
By Scott McCloud:
"when we abstract an image through cartooning we're not so much eliminating details as we are focusing on specific details. By stripping down an image to its essential meaning an artist can amplify that meaning in a way that realistic art can't.
Another is universality of cartoon imagery. The more cartoony a face is, for instance, the more people it could be said to discribe.


This is where the challange in using a photo in comics-form seems to be. How can one use the form in such a way that the mind doen't simply say "this might as well be a movie."

would love to see it though... post a page or a pic sometime!!!
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
19:18 / 26.10.01
I've seen the Photo-comic done a few times... in fact VERTIGO just released a hard cover book done in this manner... don't racall the name.

I don't know what yr talking about, so if anyone can find out what the book is, please let me know, I really, really, really want to acquire a copy...

Back in the 40s and 50s there were a lot of comics made of photos in Italy, they were called photo novellas...it was a bit of a fad though, and they just sorta have become antiques...

I've been working out what the advantages and disadvantages of working this way are... so far there's a lot of technical issues to cover (mundane things like shooting images specifically to be cropped...like say, I want a long narrow vertical panel...I have to shoot it with that in mind)

The biggest obstacle is mostly logistical, getting models/actors to commit, finding the right locations, writing stories to fit my low budget and means... I've got a lot of stories I've been kicking around to develop one day, but virtually all of them are far too ambitious for me to tackle this way at this point in time.

There's a lot of things I'm really excited about...mostly the challenges it poses to me artistically, it's going to force me to think and shoot and write in ways that I probably wouldn't normally. I guess a lot of this would make sense if you were familiar with the sort of work that I've been doing for the past five years (Ierne has seen it, maybe she can chime in..), but it's all dramatic scenes, mostly shot in black and white. They look like little bits of movies, but really, my main visual influence has always come more from comics, and this is a way of me addressing that, and being true to my roots and heavy interest in the artform. maybe I can even add something positive to the industry, who knows.

As for "this could just as well be a movie", I'm planning on keeping that in mind every step of the way. I would really like to make sure that I take advantage of all the little tricks of storytelling and narrative that are available only in the comic form, I've really been studying a lot of the things like folks Alan Moore, Dave Gibbons, Chris Ware, Philip Bond, Frank Quitely, Jim Steranko, Frank Miller etc do, in terms of formal visual ideas...but also thinking about what kind of stories and narratives can be built especially for the medium...

I'm still just starting this project, I know I'm going to commit to it for at least the next three years. Right now I'm working out plots/stories, and shooting test pages just to get a handle on the mechanics of how to put together successful narrative art, and how to shoot for that end result.

But please, if anyone knows of anything that relates directly to this sort of work, suggestions, criticisms, questions, anything, please let me know.

[ 26-10-2001: Message edited by: Flux = RAD ]
 
 
bio k9
19:30 / 26.10.01
I'm with Scott McCloud on this one. One of the reasons Maus and Uasgi Yojimbo work so well is that the art allows the reader to place whatever faces he wants on the characters. Instead of a Japanese man you get a rabbit which can translate into Clint Eastwood if your mind so desires. Also, theres something about text/ word balloons and the way they sit on top of the photographs doesn't seem right to me. Good comic art intergrates the prose and pictures in a way that I'm not sure is possible with photos- because the art is so realistic I know that the words shouldn't be sitting on top of someones face. There was at least one photo comic in an issue Taboo and I thought it was crap. That was years ago though...
 
 
Mr Tricks
20:02 / 26.10.01


I Paparazzi
it's a hard cover book published by Vertigo... Uses Photos.. with some retouching...

will U being using Photo-shop FLUX? a strong handle on that program couls be quite useful.

On Word Bubbles:
I Paparazzi completly does away with them altogether instead... floating text directly upon the image... I suspect using color & font as well as placement.

Now I do Draphic Design for Kungfu Magazine. We will often use sequential photography to illustrait a particular martial art technique or form... Only recient have we begun experimenting with sequential story-telling.


This issue in particular (on sale NOW) features a "dramatic re-enactment" of an interpol "bust." Along with the text narrative are sequential photos of events. I used Photo-shop to impose backgrounds into the studio shots... And actually got to play one of the villians!!!

If you come accross it let me know how it works . . .
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
20:24 / 26.10.01
I'm with Scott McCloud on this one. One of the reasons Maus and Uasgi Yojimbo work so well is that the art allows the reader to place whatever faces he wants on the characters.

Well, first off, I think Scott McCloud would be among the last people on this planet to come out and say something against the concept of trying new ways to create sequential art. I don't even think that comment has as much to do with putting down alternate ways of rendering images so much as defending the virtues of cartooning.

Now, re: 'putting yr own faces on humanized animals/aliens/etc' - I've never had much interest in that sort of thing to begin with, and certainly have no desire to create any work like that. Sure, those things work great for Maus, but having specifically rendered and realistically drawn human characters with fully articulated personalities is really more my taste...

I would imagine the work heading more in the direction of Daniel Clowes, Harvey Pekar, Adrian Tomine, Grant Morrison on 'Kill Your Boyfriend'... stories grounded more in reality, stories about ordinary folks is more what I want to do.


theres something about text/ word balloons and the way they sit on top of the photographs doesn't seem right to me.

yeah, I agree. same goes for painted comics. that's something to work on in production stages... but just cos it hasn't worked out in the past doesn't mean it can't be done well. That's why I'm not letting the shoddy, weak photo-comic work I've seen myself stop me from trying to get at something that really clicks... I know that you haven't seen my stuff, but I don't really shoot in a very realistic way at all, I've learned a lot of different ways to make my photographs look very much my own and stand out without even having to do anything gimmicky in the printing process. I never shoot for realism, so I'm not concerned about the comics looking like banal photo albums with words tacked on over it.


will U being using Photo-shop FLUX? a strong handle on that program couls be quite useful.

I've got a good handle on how to use that, and Quark, and a load of other design type programs, just from having to take so many required classes on the subject. Do I plan on using them in production? Yeah. Will I rely on them entirely? Probably not. I've got a gut feeling that laying out the comics on real paper with glue, handwritten captions, etc may look a lot better, but that's an experiment that I haven't gotten along to yet. Will I be using digital cameras or photoshop techniques in creating the images? No, not until after I fully explore proper shooting and printing. I would certainly use inks and paints to augment images before I would use digital filters... but again, I wouldn't rule anything out.
 
 
Mr Tricks
04:46 / 28.10.01
The Thought of Photos pasted on a board brings to mind a chat I had with a budy. He suggest completely forgetting about the mas-produced published form and instead creating much fewer "comics" on a much larger scale to be sold out of a gallery instead of a newstand . . .

Imagine the $1000 dollar comic book!!!
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
09:53 / 29.10.01
ah! see, that's actually going full speed in the opposite direction of where I was headed...one of the things that lead me to the epiphany to do this was that I realised that I hated the idea of galleries, I don't really like going to them, and the whole art market leaves me very cold - I didn't like the fact that it was one of the most attractive options I had for the sort of photography I do...I'm not opposed to having work in galleries or having it sold, I just don't want to gear my life towards it...
 
 
No star here laces
09:53 / 29.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Flux = RAD:
I would imagine the work heading more in the direction of Daniel Clowes, Harvey Pekar, Adrian Tomine, Grant Morrison on 'Kill Your Boyfriend'... stories grounded more in reality, stories about ordinary folks is more what I want to do.


Evidently those are the kind of stories you'd have to do - you couldn't exactly do the Authority or the Invisibles with photography.

But this reminded me of one of the reasons I think about comics in the way I do. A couple of years back I was talking to my grandad's wife, who was in her 80s and was a writer, and trying to explain to her why I liked comics. I remember saying "and the great thing about comics is you can do anything because you can draw anything." And she said "I see, and could you do a comic like a Jane Austen novel?"

At the time I said yes, thinking of exactly the kind of comics you list above. Now I'm not so sure. I don't think comics ever can tell that kind of story and paint those kind of scenes as well as a novel can. Which isn't to say that it's a worthless enterprise to try to make these sorts of comics. But it is a very good reason to make splashy, poppy, visually spectacular comics which can acheive an effect that a novel never could.
 
 
sleazenation
10:09 / 29.10.01
put simply comics are a tool of the imagination freed from the constraints of budget.

Yes, the reproduction and distribution cost money but the actual portrayal of visual effects cost no more than the cost of paper and pens.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
11:29 / 29.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Tyrone Mushylaces:

But it is a very good reason to make splashy, poppy, visually spectacular comics which can acheive an effect that a novel never could.


I am not sure if I understand what yr trying to say: are you saying that dramatic fiction that has no elements of science fiction, super heroes, horror, or surrealism has little potential to be made into good comics, regardless of how they are illustrated? Lord, I would hope not, cos that's quite an argument I'd have to get into...

there is no reason why real life can't be visually interesting. and despite a lack of fighting robots and exploding buildings, I would never in a million years say that Chris Ware or Daniel Clowes or Alex Robinson or Bo Hampton or that guy who does Strangers In Paradise are boring artists, not by a long shot.
 
 
No star here laces
11:56 / 29.10.01
No Flux, you're right, that isn't what I was saying.

Basically my point just comes down to maximising the potential of the medium. Thomas Pynchon books do not get adapted into films because there would be no point - the medium of film cannot duplicate what the text does, and it cannot add anything either.

Similarly, Jane Austen books do not get adapted into comics because there would be no point - the kind of mannered nuance of behaviour that she specialises in is particularly hard to convey in a comic.

Most media tend to graduate towards stories that they can tell particularly well. Hence plays tend to be set in one location and feature a limited cast of characters.

Certainly one can write comics without fancy visual effects. Some of my favourite comics are like this. And many of the artists who draw them are indeed interesting artists.

BUT, I basically enjoy the medium of comics because of the 'cool pictures'. And if you sent me off to a desert island with two comics, two books and two videos I would pick comics that were either deeply surreal or action-packed (probably one of each) because that's what comics do best. I wouldn't take Ghost World, because much as I love it, I think I could get the same type of enjoyment from a book.

So just saying that I think it's a pretty understandable and reasonable thing that most comics are based around action and spectacle.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
12:15 / 29.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Tyrone Mushylaces:
No Flux, you're right, that isn't what I was saying.

Basically my point just comes down to maximising the potential of the medium. Thomas Pynchon books do not get adapted into films because there would be no point - the medium of film cannot duplicate what the text does, and it cannot add anything either.

Similarly, Jane Austen books do not get adapted into comics because there would be no point - the kind of mannered nuance of behaviour that she specialises in is particularly hard to convey in a comic.

Most media tend to graduate towards stories that they can tell particularly well. Hence plays tend to be set in one location and feature a limited cast of characters.

Certainly one can write comics without fancy visual effects. Some of my favourite comics are like this. And many of the artists who draw them are indeed interesting artists.

BUT, I basically enjoy the medium of comics because of the 'cool pictures'. And if you sent me off to a desert island with two comics, two books and two videos I would pick comics that were either deeply surreal or action-packed (probably one of each) because that's what comics do best. I wouldn't take Ghost World, because much as I love it, I think I could get the same type of enjoyment from a book.

So just saying that I think it's a pretty understandable and reasonable thing that most comics are based around action and spectacle.
 
  
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