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More Miracleman fun

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14:50 / 13.11.01

Todd being honked off cos he didn't get what he thought he was buying is one thing (to which you could say tough luck todd-- caveat emptor and all that) - and yes this could seem like the actions of petulent spiteful child (well if i don't get my way no one will...)

I'm not saying no one else should work on miracleman- just that work that was not of a standard on a par with Moore and Gaiman's work bereft even of continuity with their work would be as irrelevant as the the old (or indeed current) doom patrol series compared to Grant's run.

On the business front I doubt the business sense behind a McFarlane miracleman in the same way i do of Van Saint's Psycho. Yes you CAN do it. Some people may even pay to see the results, but it will never be greater in terms of sales or criticle acclaim than the work it is riffing(ripping?) -off-

So what is what's the point?

maybe what you said about Todd thowing a tantrum over being told what he can do is the long and the short of it...

02:00 / 11.01.02

Further Miracleman developments.

"In 1983, Moore was a budding sanitation engineer and part-time comic scribe when Warrior publisher Dezi Skinn-Arnaz, Jr., approached him about resurrecting Marvelman. Moore refused, on the grounds that his black magick powers were not yet to that level. When Skinn explained that he only wanted to bring back the character, not an actual person, Moore agreed."

OK, not really.

16:45 / 25.01.02

Gaiman sues McFarlane (from Newsarama)

Oh my...

Good luck, Neil...

[ 25-01-2002: Message edited by: Sam Lowry ]

The Knowledge +1

09:02 / 26.01.02

You know, there's one thing I don't like about this whole mess.

Gaiman, and effectively Marvel, hung around, waiting for McFarlane to make the first move.

And McFarlane made the move and now they're sueing.

Not only is it cheaper to defend then prosecute (defence depending on the way things are, opposed to prosecuting to prove the way things were supposively meant to be) But Neil is teaming up with Marvel comics, who, up until 16 months ago, were bringing out some of the worst comics recognised to humanity.

McFarlane, once upon a time, bucked the trend in a big way, all credit to hgim, and vital for the comics industry, and now that Marvel are well known again, they're taking sides in a very dubiously decided micro-war, and, well, it's just so PREDICTABLE.

I hope Gaiman wins, if what he says is true, but I really REALLY hope he loses if he's lying out of his ass. Good PR does not make for an honest version of events, and doing so to influence how history is recorded, despite the actual TRUTH, is not an honourable path to follow.

I just hope this isn't a way for Marvel to get their own back, 'cause that would mean that Marvel haven't actually learnt anything at all.

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

14:36 / 26.01.02

After reading a LOT about this one, and actually talking to Neil about it at a signing, I'm amazed there hasn't been a lawsuit before this.

The irony of it all is that while Toddy Mac and the other Image guys said they were doign it for creator's rights, the only creators who GOT any rights were them. Every creation in a Wildstorm book was sold to DC by Jim Lee, and not a single person who worked for him has a single copyright. Same for all the others.

It's amazing. And it will give us comics geeks a hero to cheer and a villian to boo, which we all seem to like.

14:53 / 26.01.02

Um, on a slightly related note, has anyone noticed any TMP comics coming out lately? I've been ordering Spawn for my store for the last 3 or 4 months and haven't received a one. Has he ceased putting out any comics, and is this indicative of anything?

Love how TMP will not comment on the lawsuit except on their own message boards where everyone loves them.

Zoom.

22:18 / 26.01.02

Zoom, what did TMP say on their site ? I'd go and look, but I'm allergic to the word 'RULZ'...

And if nothing else, this should prove interesting to watch.

DBC

16:49 / 27.01.02

Somewhere on the message board, when this whole thing started, someone claiming to be McFarlane, and believed by the vast majority of posters there, came on and said that Gaiman was lying.
I thought it was mentioned earlier on in this thread, but maybe it was on the previous thread about Miracleman.
I'll poke about and see if I can find a link for you.

Zoom.

The Knowledge +1

17:06 / 27.01.02

Funny that, as that was one of the themes in Hellspawn when Bendis was writing it, and Hellspawn is where Miracleman is due to show up next - despite Todd only allowing an Ashley Wood cover of him to be released, but no mention of the name. I think he was labelled in the description as a 'hero of mythic proportions' a while back.

I cancelled Hellspawn so I don't know if he's shown up yet though. Anyone know?

17:37 / 27.01.02

I don't think Hellspawn has shipped at all for a long while. I've not received it anyway.

Zoom.

17:26 / 06.02.02

From the most current Cerebus - #274. Haven't read the issue yet - just scanned it and laughted when I came upon ole Todd, there.

17:46 / 06.02.02

just cutting out a second post of the above image.

[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: videodrome ]

09:05 / 07.02.02

I want that jersey.

[ 07-02-2002: Message edited by: moriarty ]

07:32 / 24.03.06

What about this beautiful "Man of Miracles" statue?

(ya know I just finished reading Moore's run and wanted to comment on it, but all I can find using search is the legal stuff topics, maybe I'll post in the general Moore topic)

09:25 / 24.03.06

How did you get your hands on Alan Moore MM comics? All I ever could buy was a hardcover of Book one - a dream of flying. The rest was only to be seen on ebay and way too expensive.

09:41 / 24.03.06

It's worthwhile to note that the actual "Man of Miracles" character in the comic doesn't look like Mike Moran at all.

10:42 / 24.03.06

How did you get your hands on Alan Moore MM comics? All I ever could buy was a hardcover of Book one - a dream of flying. The rest was only to be seen on ebay and way too expensive.

I bought a CD-R with all of the issues from a seller off eBay for $7. Worth every penny.

10:44 / 24.03.06

Mistoffelees, you can download a complete run of Miracleman from Torrent Spy. (And Zenith as well)

10:48 / 24.03.06

I guess one of the side effects of ebay is that hyper inflated price and relative unavailability of Miracleman comics...

It seems almost inconceivable today that I was able to assemble my complete run simply through trawling through back issue bins for less than exhorbitant prices... and such feats are still possible - The Brighton comic mart had old issues of Warrior, featuring both the out of print Moore and Davis Miracleman and the original B&W run of V for Vendetta...

11:12 / 24.03.06

I know this is a really old topic, but isn't owning a percentage of a character just about the stupidest thing ever? If the rights to Miracleman are split between three or four people then what does that mean? Can the majority shareholder do whatever they want and just pay the other folks their percentage of the money he makes? But then couldn't the other shareholders block what the majority holder is doing? If not, then what's the point?

Plus, all this angst over a character who isn't very marketable anymore, and would only be of interest to a limited readership.

11:33 / 24.03.06

and for my money, the story is over, finished, done, even perhaps run a bit too long with the Apocripha, and i'm happy to see it so, however i'd be pleased to see it republished and am sure a lot of other people would be too.

11:35 / 24.03.06

Well Grady, the split in ownership rights is something of a testament process that led to the rebirth of Marvelman back in the early 80s, back when creator ownership on the collaborative field of comics was something that was quite new...

As for the appeal of Miracleman, I still stand by my comments of five years ago (!) that it is the work of the creators involved rather than the character itself that continues to attract readers - lest we forget, Miracleman is a knock-off of a knock-off of Superman...

11:45 / 24.03.06

The issue with Miracleman is two-fold.

First there's the copyrights. Whoever has those can publish reprints of the Moore/Gaiman stories, and make a bundle (oversized hardcover, anyone?). Any profits would then be split among the copyright owners.

Then there's the trademarks, which is what you'd need to make NEW stories (like the rest of Gaiman's ideas, and any other MM tales). Those have lain fallow for years, and while Todd tried to get them, Gaiman's lawyers have gotten involved.

I'm not entirely sure which rights were covered under the Eclipse sale, or whether the reversion clause is valid.

12:23 / 24.03.06

So, Dr Beck - you have no desire to see the Silver age completed? Since only two issues of it were ever published, fewer people appear to have read it, but it is still quite interesting particularly in its portrayal of Miracleman's evolving sexuality and what appear's to be Arvil's jelousy...

I'd agree that the last issue of the Golden Age would give a satisfying end point for the series, but it isn't where the story ends...

12:54 / 24.03.06

i must admit sleazenation, no, i think after moores run it was okay, as was the apocrypha, but the really great story was done with me, like doing a sequel to casablanca, i have those later issues but i bought them more from some aspergers completist tendency than because they were essential. but maybe i should take another look this weekend and get back on that. do you like the later stuff yourself?

13:18 / 24.03.06

I saw this thread get bumped and thought for a moment "Thank the heavens!! There is news/a good resolution to this whole thing!!!"

I always remember one Gaiman-written issue that I loved -- a single-issue story about a guy who dated lots of women but always dumped them because each one had some tiny flaw. Then he spends the night with Miraclewoman and she is, of course, perfection personified, but the experience teaches him that he has been too extreme with his impossibly high standards with women's physical beauty & attributes, and that he needs to accept those he loves as they are. It ends with him in a happy committed relationship with a human, non-perfect, woman. Good little issue....I may not be summarizing it wonderfully but that was the basic plot. The issue is somewhere in my comic boxes and hasn't seen the light of day in years, since I read it when it first came out.

I really want this legal mess resolved and the end of the Gaiman run published, a shiny new printing of the Moore run, etc. etc. Of course, so do about 10,000 other fans.

13:39 / 24.03.06

I really rate The Golden Age, particularly it's format as a series of poignant and diverse vignettes ultimately brought together in the final epilogue 'carnival' (although it has been a while since I last read it). The Warhol story, particularly springs to mind, as does the raw emotion underlying the family breakup portrayed in Winter's Tale...

I also think it does a wonderful job of showcasing the diversity of Mark Buckingham's talents...

Ultimately, I think The Golden Age is a gentle, subtle and persistant critique of the anarchist utopia Moore sets out in the last issue of his run...

The Silver Age is very different, or at least it seems to be from the two issues we have of it... it's a a straighter, multipart storyline involving the ressurection of Young Miracleman... it's underscored with the malevolent shadow of John Bates. The unstated dramatic question being Young Miracleman's potential to be 'another Bates' or 'another miracleman'... Added to this is a contrast of social mores and morality between the 1950s of YM and the polysexual, polyamourous world Miracleman has now ushered in... I can't think of many other comics that have touched upon such themes with the skill that Gaiman can muster in the intervening decade since those two issues of The Silver Age were first published which leaves me feeling a bit disappointed that we never got to see exactly where Gaiman was going with it all...

...And after the Silver Age Gaiman was supposed to pen one last Miracleman tale under the ominous banner 'the dark age'...

13:47 / 24.03.06

Finder - I think you are misremembering the issue in question, aren't you? Wasn't the point of the story that Miraclewoman was also flawed (in that her real body is not that of a goddess) and she then goes on to brand the narrator leaving him with a phyisical imperfection to remind him... and the denoument for the tale is that the narrator ends up being set up with his ex through computer dating and the pair begin a more honest tentative relationship shorn of the expectation of perfection...

19:34 / 24.03.06

I electronic Bynre stole them (sorry Alan, I have no clue how to get them otherwise). I actually downloaded Moore and Gaiman's stuff, but Moore's story was so great it feels like the story's over, and I haven't really looked at the Gaiman stuff. The only reason I would care about them settling the Miracleman legal stuff is so that I could get a Moore trade out of the thing.

Neil said if they ever sorted the mess out, they'd change his name back to MarvelMan and that Marvel comics would reprint his and Moore's stuff. I don't know if Marvel would really do that though, as there's stuff like child rape, and a really graphic birth scene(it's actually an ok scene, but I can't picture Marvel publishing a closeup of a woman's vagina, they'd have no problem with the ultraviolent death/fight scenes I'm sure, but closeup on vagina might be a dealbreaker)

19:57 / 24.03.06

yup, sleazenation, that's correct on both counts (the story summary and my misremembering it)

Anyway, I liked that story. That's the one that really stood out for me in Gaiman's run...and I echo the sentiments that Buckingham really did nice work on the series.

20:06 / 24.03.06

If you want to read it on paper, the original issues aren't that much on Ebay. I was able to get every issue except for 15 for around $30 about four years ago. For some reason, issue 15 goes for huge prices on Ebay, so if you're bidding on a complete run of the series, that's where the costs are.

Even though I'd consider the Moore run pretty much perfect and complete, I did really enjoy Gaiman's stuff. I got the Golden Age trade from my local library (I wouldn't be suprised if it's been stolen since). It reminded me of some of the best standalone issues from Sandman, and I'd be really interested to see what he could do with the major characters. I'm still holding out hope, but it's been a long time without any progress.

20:55 / 24.03.06

Issue #15 is the big showdown with Johnny Bates. It's probably THE most graphic, violent, & intense superhero fight in comicbook history.

Authority, even at it's nastiest, isn't even CLOSE.

09:40 / 25.03.06

This is insane.

You know as soon as the book becomes a hit, like twenty other people come out of the woodwork with claims to it.

The fans are really being hurt by this. most of us just wnat to see the old issues published again, regardless of who does it.

09:51 / 25.03.06

It's strange, cause while I really think more people should be able and want to read Miracleman, when it and if it does come back into print i expect many first-time readers will be disappointed or underwhelmed by it, particularly the early Alan Moore stuff, kind of in the same way that people tend not to talk about Moore's run on Captain Britain as a seminal work... - Some of the art in the second volume is not particularly engaging and a bit dated... But it all comes together in book three...

Miracleman 16 could well be the most politically interesting comic Moore has written...

13:30 / 25.03.06

I wonder... those issues you don't like. Were they the Chuck Bekum ones?

Because Chuck later changed his last name. To Austen....

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