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Marvel Boy

 
 
Traz
23:59 / 12.10.01
I just picked up the trade today; I'm a tad behind the times, I know. Will the story be finished? Where can I find some annotations? Why was the third issue so bad and so irrelevant to the rest of the story? And lastly, was there any real point to this book, or was it just good old blowing-shit-up entertainment?
 
 
Hush
05:41 / 13.10.01
I've got Marvel Boy on my bedside table for a second reading this weekend. As I remember
MB is intended to be about the changing of ages, with the our 'Boy as the young Hermes/Thoth creating the future in the alembic of New York, but finally failing to the old world order. (But he will be back, according to the ending) You would probably enjoy reading the latest update of the Grant Morrison website, and also look at the Pop Magic section of the same site, for a bit of background.

I enjoyed the insect intelligence being the good guy in this, after a couple of decades of Grant's apparent fear of insecty things.

I'm off to read. Now.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:56 / 13.10.01
Traz- You didn't like the 'Brand Hex' story, why?
 
 
Traz
19:10 / 13.10.01
Sheesh, Luke. If that "Pop Magic" is non-fiction, then you can consider my opinion of Mr. Morrison as having fallen several dozen notches. Just what the world needs: more two-faced, quasi-religious motivational speakers. He rails against the viral structure of corporate sigils while reprogramming his audience into thinking along non-rational lines. Look at his methods: flashy wit, slogans and/or buzzwords, reliance on our low attention span, contempt for outsiders, promises of salvation, prosperity or coolness. He's no different than any commerical, publicist or preacher; he's more interested in spreading his paradigms and than examining them for flaws.

Lozt, apart from the now-obvious authorial hypocrisy in "Digital Koncentration Kamp One," it had four major flaws.

First of all, it was a pointless detour, adding nothing to the ongoing storyline.

Second, it struck me as being inherently anachronistic, both in the chronological and spatial sense, like a twelfth-century blender or a Marxist alien from Epsilon Eridani. An intelligent, adaptive religion would have been more plausible, since spirituality is, based on our history at least, more likely to be universally pervasive than a certain system of economics.

Third, it was silly; there's nothing particularly scary about people being brainwashed into staring at an appliance all day, is there? Flesh-eating zombies are marginally eerie; couch potatoes led by man named Mr. Greepy are not.

Fourth, it was redundant. Marvel Boy was already fighting the Midas Corporation, a company that was just as greedy and canny.
 
 
Hush
20:27 / 13.10.01
I don't think Pop magic is background to reality: I think its Background to the shape of Grant's Head.

I tend to agree though about issue three, but its probably there to widen the narrative, give a different perspective of Marvel Boy, and likely because Grant had these ideas and wanted to use them up as quickly as possible so he could have some more.

Its the speed and superficiality I like, Grant's ideational fluidity is what makes his best work work. And I prefer him glorying in trivia to be uh serious;- like in the dull but worthy Mystery Play. As I've said in other threads I quite like a bit of piss-taking, the high speed bullshit rant is an artform.
 
 
klint
20:55 / 13.10.01
quote: Sheesh, Luke. If that "Pop Magic" is non-fiction, then you can consider my opinion of Mr. Morrison as having fallen several dozen notches. Just what the world needs: more two-faced, quasi-religious motivational speakers. He rails against the viral structure of corporate sigils while reprogramming his audience into thinking along non-rational lines. Look at his methods: flashy wit, slogans and/or buzzwords, reliance on our low attention span, contempt for outsiders, promises of salvation, prosperity or coolness. He's no different than any commerical, publicist or preacher; he's more interested in spreading his paradigms and than examining them for flaws.

OK, the introduction, the stuff about being a corporate speaker and what not, is fiction. It's just wacky old Morisson humor. The rest of it, the instructional portion of it, is serious.

And what's irrational about scientific experimentation? What's irrational about saying "try these methods and find something that works for you"? Morrison didn't create these methods, nor are these methods part of some money making scheme. You can find a ton of information on chaos magic at Chaos Matrix for free, or try chatting in the Magick forum of this site. This has nothing to do with dogmatic religions or quasi-religious motivation, just open minded experimentation.

And if it is all bull shit, does that make Morrison's writing any worse? If anything else, it makes it more interesting. Perhaps all this magic stuff's just a publicity stunt to sell more comics. If so, what's the problem? So long as the comics are good and thought-provoking, I'm down.

Before you condemn a practice (in this case, magic) you really should do some more research. Check out more about chaos magic and magic in general, and maybe read some interviews with Morrison himself to get a better idea of what he's doing.

quote: Lozt, apart from the now-obvious authorial hypocrisy in "Digital Koncentration Kamp One," it had four major flaws.

Sounds to me that you're with "contempt for outsiders." Could you show us some examples of the errs of our ways, please?

quote: First of all, it was a pointless detour, adding nothing to the ongoing storyline.

I thought it was a meaningful detour. It took some time out of the the major happenings to show Marvel Boy doing some good for earth despite the fact that that they killed everyone he cared about. This seems very relevant now, now that I think about it. Anyway, it established the character as a good guy, not just a revenge driven alien.

quote: Second, it struck me as being inherently anachronistic, both in the chronological and spatial sense, like a twelfth-century blender or a Marxist alien from Epsilon Eridani. An intelligent, adaptive religion would have been more plausible, since spirituality is, based on our history at least, more likely to be universally pervasive than a certain system of economics.

I disagree. It seems to me that American society is not based on religion, but on economics. Frequently the economic systems take advantage of people's spirituality in order to make profit. But it seems to me much of the point of this story (and of the humorous introduction to Pop Magic) is that economics can be seen as a dogmatic world engulfing religion.

quote: Third, it was silly; there's nothing particularly scary about people being brainwashed into staring at an appliance all day, is there? Flesh-eating zombies are marginally eerie; couch potatoes led by man named Mr. Greepy are not.

I guess it all depends on what you think is important. I think the idea of being brainwashed into starting at an appliance is pretty fucking scarey and somewhat plausible. Flesh-eating zombies are not scarey to me. Not only has the idea been used billions of times before (not to say that Morisson is the first to write about corporate brainwashing), but it's an unrealistic idea. If brain eating zombies are your bag, maybe you should be reading Choas! comics or something else.

quote: Fourth, it was redundant. Marvel Boy was already fighting the Midas Corporation, a company that was just as greedy and canny.


This is a super-hero story, and super-heroes fight super-villains. Hexus and Midas are two different villains, and although they're both corporations they provide two very different challenges to Noh-Varr.
 
 
Traz
01:53 / 14.10.01
Dammit! Note to self: Alt + 130 = é; Ctrl + 125 + Enter = selects all text (all five paragraphs!) and deletes it.

Anyway...yeah, Luke I think you may be right. Maybe I'm just trying to rationalize away a drop in my personal adrenaline level. Whether it was semiotically dysfunctional or just plain lame, it didn't work for me.

klint, Mr. Morrison is a great writer and, in retrospect, "Pop Magic" was pretty funny, but I'm still skeptical of anyone who claims to be an alternative thinker while mindlessly following the herd, whether the trendsetter is Jesus Christ, MTV or Grant Morrison. When did works become canonical scriptures? When did questioning his infallibility become heresy? I'm less concerned about the subject of this fad -- magic -- than I am in the fact that his fan club doesn't recognize it as a fad, or viral meme, or neomystical paradigm, or whatever the "intellectually hip" name is for it right now.

I'm surprised and gratified that more Barbelithers didn't rise to this bait, but that may be due more to the rant's placement than content. However, if your attitude is more prevalent than this thread indicates, then Grant's buzzwords are in danger of becoming the next Abercrombie & Fitch logo. This forum may end up as little more than a high-school clique of identical standard-bearers unless you take Mr. Morrison off that ideological pedestal. He's just a comic book writer, for crying out loud.

(Edited for grammar.)

[ 14-10-2001: Message edited by: Traz ]
 
 
klint
02:55 / 14.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Traz:


klint, Mr. Morrison is a great writer and, in retrospect, "Pop Magic" was pretty funny, but I'm still skeptical of anyone who claims to be an alternative thinker while mindlessly following the herd, whether the trendsetter is Jesus Christ, MTV or Grant Morrison.


For clarification, are you refering here to Morrison, the Barbelith Underground in general, or me in particular?

When did works become canonical scriptures? When did questioning his infallibility become heresy? I'm less concerned about the subject of this fad -- magic -- than I am in the fact that his fan club doesn't recognize it as a fad, or viral meme, or neomystical paradigm, or whatever the "intellectually hip" name is for it right now.


Fair enough. But where do you get the idea that I, or anyone else here, feels that Morisson's work is a unquestionable? A lot of questioning goes on around these parts. There are people around here who don't even like the Invisibles all that much. Plenty of people are unimpressed with various things that he's written. Even more people think that the whole magic thing is non-sense. I don't have any demographics or anything, but I would hazard a guess that MOST of the Barbelith community are NOT magic practicers. As for myself, I was attracted to the Invisibles by my interest in magic, not vice-versa. I don't agree with everything that Morrison says, not by a long shot. But I think he's an extremely interesting writer and thinker.

I'm surprised and gratified that more Barbelithers didn't rise to this bait, but that may be due more to the rant's placement than content.


I'm not really sure I understand this... you're glad more people aren't expressing their feelings or debating this issue?

However, if your attitude is more prevalent than this thread indicates, then Grant's buzzwords are in danger of becoming the next Abercrombie & Fitch logo. This forum may end up as little more than a high-school clique of identical standard-bearers unless you take Mr. Morrison off that ideological pedestal. He's just a comic book writer, for crying out loud.


1) I'm not really sure what you think my "attitude" is. Responding point by point to your criticisms of a comic book and explaining why I think about it differently doesn't mean that I'm blindly following the writer.

2) I believe Morisson would like for magic to become the next big fad. Why? Maybe because he wants to get rich and famous. Or maybe because he thinks that magical thinking will help free people in some way.

3) This forum definetly has a cliqueish nature. But I definently wouldn't say that forum as a whole is about Morrison idolitry. Morrison is what brings a lot of people here, and his works are a very popular springboard for discussion. But there's quite a lot more to this forum than Morisson.

(Edited for grammar.)

[ 14-10-2001: Message edited by: Traz ][/QB]
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
03:14 / 14.10.01
I can see where Traz is coming from.... one of my confusions with Morrison is how he can't seem to keep his morality straight...though I don't necessarily fault him for this because I'm the same way, a total moral relativist...

Re: Marvel Boy - I think the Digital Koncentration Kamp story is the only thing I'm particularly fond of in Marvel Boy, and I sorta wish the story began and ended there.
 
 
klint
04:15 / 14.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Flux = VVX232:
I can see where Traz is coming from.... one of my confusions with Morrison is how he can't seem to keep his morality straight...though I don't necessarily fault him for this because I'm the same way, a total moral relativist...


That's one of the ways I think I connect to his work... the moral confusion. One theme that keeps cropping up is the battle between the lust for anarchy and the desire to just give in and conform. It's a conflict that comes up constantly in my own life and thinking, and its nice to have literature around that reflects it so perfectly. Or at least that's the way I interpret a lot of what goes on Morrison's work.
 
 
Hush
06:21 / 14.10.01
Back at the comic.

It's the piece of GM's work I would most like to see produced as an opera. The structure is ideal, with a comedia del' arte feel to it; three central figures :- mad father, brash suitor, and daughter who moves between them giving narrative direction and tension.

It has the big idea:- revenge tempered by compassion and responsiblity (what act three is all about narratively; structurally it is there to give drama and tension to the appearance of Oubliette, and of course to weaken suitor to the point were the conflict slides into romance.

The language is awesomely musically, and often completely lacking in meaning, and I think two things are achieved here. The first is to express alien technologies and concepts in a realistic way, that is one that makes no sense to us, and thereby achieving the sense of strangeness that science fiction frequently lacks. The second is purely sonic and dramatic; language for pleasure and effect. Incidently I noticed on this reading that the intro sequence ('1 million realities and counting..' is, um, sourced from The Hitchhikers Guide to The Galaxy). Plagiarism too good to avoid.

So thats the opening number;- huge chorus, slowly slipping away to leave MB alone in new world.

Slow number introducing Midas, very dark and moody yet hint of compassion there.

I'm not going too do this:- you imagine the rest.

Readers of FF1234 note the appearance of the Moleman (next to the teletubbies)

It's glossy, bright, slightly nonsensical in places where pace drives it forward, rather the story. Essential a melodrama.

It is the perfect 'What if Grant Morrison invented the marvel universe?' introductory comic:- note the takes on Captain America, and of course Midas is Iron Man/Tony Stark, the two main Marvel Characters most in need of radically turning into something else, The Hulk as Bannerman 3.

There, I liked it. It had its own flavour and identity; and a great ending:- ideal for a song.

Any musically talented 'lithers out there want to collaborate?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:32 / 14.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Traz:
Mr. Morrison is a great writer and, in retrospect, "Pop Magic" was pretty funny, but I'm still skeptical of anyone who claims to be an alternative thinker while mindlessly following the herd, whether the trendsetter is Jesus Christ, MTV or Grant Morrison. When did works become canonical scriptures? When did questioning his infallibility become heresy?

I don't know, when did...? You've obviously been reading a whole different board than me. Who's been accusing you of heresy, no-one that I can see in this thread. Of course some people are going to substitute Grant Morrison for God and thereby miss the point but by and large the people on here don't do that, hell most of them haven't even read anything he's done. I like most of his work a lot but I'm not blind to his flaws. Come back in a couple of days when hopefully I'll have my 'Are Arkham Asylum and The Mystery Play Shit or is it just me?' thread going.

quote: I'm less concerned about the subject of this fad -- magic -- than I am in the fact that his fan club doesn't recognize it as a fad, or viral meme, or neomystical paradigm, or whatever the "intellectually hip" name is for it right now.

OK, now we are veering dangerously towards 'putting forward one's point of view as fact' here. If that's not your intent then I feel that the word 'fad' is ill chosen, especially as Grant claims to have lived by these beliefs for some 20 years more or less. And there are people on here who are involved in magic who have no connection or interest in Grant.

quote:
This forum may end up as little more than a high-school clique of identical standard-bearers unless you take Mr. Morrison off that ideological pedestal. He's just a comic book writer, for crying out loud.


Agreed, but examples please.
 
 
Traz
23:01 / 14.10.01
I'm not going to bother refuting every point that has been raised about my argument. This isn't a thesis paper; I freely admit that this is just my own half-assed, knee-jerk response to a vague and nebulous problem I probably over-exaggerated to start with.

To the best of my knowledge, there isn't anyone on the board who wanders around shouting, "I want to be just like Grant Morrison" as droplets of spittle spray from his gibbering lips, but there's no harm in sitting down and pondering whether we are taking steps towards becoming that nameless drooling zombie. Most people who follow trends for the sake of following trends don't become that obvious, so why should people be any different on this board?

Imagine a conversation between a person who just got a tattoo and a skeptical friend who asks: "Why did you get it?" The answer will usually be, because they're cool. "Well, why do you think tattoos are cool?" The reply: because they help me express myself. "So, the fact that every man, woman and Daschund your age has a tattoo didn't affect your perception of what's cool?" Angry frown: Why, no; the fact that all of my friends think the same as I do is just a colossal coincidence.

Everyone claims that their interest in the object of the trend, be it Grant Morrison or tattoos, springs from an unbiased personal interest. Few are willing to admit that he or she jumped on the bandwagon because the opinions of his or her peers are important, even though everyone knows that peer approval is almost always a factor. In "Digital Koncentration Kamp One," Morrison makes a laudable attack on excessive brand-name consciousness, or the quest to escape peer pressure and gain peer approval. Unfortunately, that is mirrored on Barbelith, to an admittedly lesser extent.

I could go on, but what's the point? Everything boils down to how you define words like "trend," "peer pressure" and "clique." I think it's safe to say that my definitions simply won't match klint's or Lozt's, and it's probably not important enough to continue haggling over.

Luke, thanks for the Douglas Adams reference; I didn't even notice that. I'm writing up a list of my own annotations.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
23:47 / 14.10.01
See, I don't see where yr getting this idea that everyone here is a rabid Grant fan with no critical faculties concerning his work... I never get that impression at all, and personally, though I consider Grant Morrison a major influence on me, I've discovered that I'm only a fan of maybe half of his work. I'm not very into his work on JLA or Invisibles at all, Marvel Boy struck me as kinda spotty, there's loads of work of his that I haven't even bothered with. I'm mostly just a big fan of Kill Yr Boyfriend, Animal Man, FF: 1234, New X-Men, and especially Doom Patrol. That, and some of the essays and interviews he gives.

This insistance that everyone here is part of a clique that yr being kept out of/refuse to belong in/is mindlessly following something or other seems to have more to do with whatever insecurities yr bringing to the table than what the reality here actually is.
 
 
sleazenation
23:47 / 14.10.01
I picked up the first issue of marvel boy and was distinctly unimpressed. This opinion may change when i eventually read the whole story. - (although i do think if each episode could not stand on its own then it should never have been serialised)
 
 
rizla mission
11:24 / 15.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Traz:

Everyone claims that their interest in the object of the trend, be it Grant Morrison or tattoos, springs from an unbiased personal interest. Few are willing to admit that he or she jumped on the bandwagon because the opinions of his or her peers are important, even though everyone knows that peer approval is almost always a factor.


I feel you may be getting carried away with your metaphors a bit here.

My 'peers' certainly don't give a flying fuck about half-mad Scottish comics writers, I don't know about yours..

And I'll stick to my belief that Marvel Boy is some of the best stuff Grant's ever done - absolutely the coolest, most forward thinking superhero comic since, well, Doom Patrol I guess..
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
17:09 / 15.10.01
(sensing a backlash trend)

to be honest I always thought morrison was a dick.

total dick actually.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:13 / 15.10.01
Grant who?

He the faggot what draws them funnybooks?
 
 
Traz
00:11 / 16.10.01
Heh.

I don't want to be known as one of those pricks who always says, "I stand by what I said, no matter how fucking stupid it looks in retrospect." Yes, I did overestimate the Grant-worship on the board, and, yes, I should have realized the introduction to "Pop Magic" was satire.

However, I do think there is a grain of truth somewhere in my ranting. I think "Digital Koncentration Kamp One" was an attack on, among other things, trendiness. I think Grant has become trendy in some circles. Therefore, I think there's a teensy hint of hypocrisy in both Mr. Morrison and his more enthusiastic fans.

How's that?
 
 
Jack Fear
00:48 / 16.10.01
One of the major theses of The Invisibles was that all sides are one, everything is true all at once, and binary notions such as serious/frivolous and false/authentic are outmoded and useless.

In such a scheme, contradictions are an illusion, and hypocrisy does not exist. So it seems that your philosophical objection has been raised and disposed of before you even posed it.

NEXT!
 
 
Traz
01:01 / 16.10.01
True, but the dominant theme in Marvel Boy was the explicitly confrontational nature of reality. Or, to restate it in a more positive manner, "If it's not on your side, reduce it to as many pieces as possible with the loudest possible explosion."
 
 
Perfect Tommy
01:11 / 16.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Traz:
Just what the world needs: more two-faced, quasi-religious motivational speakers. He rails against the viral structure of corporate sigils while reprogramming his audience into thinking along non-rational lines. Look at his methods: flashy wit, slogans and/or buzzwords, reliance on our low attention span, contempt for outsiders, promises of salvation, prosperity or coolness. He's no different than any commerical, publicist or preacher; he's more interested in spreading his paradigms and than examining them for flaws.

Pretty much what Jack said. The "railing against the viral structure of corporate sigils" is a response to their content, but the methods are ones he thinks are useful for spreading his paradigms. (I suspect that he examines said paradigms for flaws plenty, just not in public.)

quote:Imagine a conversation between a person who just got a tattoo and a skeptical friend who asks: "Why did you get it?" The answer will usually be, because they're cool. "Well, why do you think tattoos are cool?"
(Shameless name-dropping to gain admiration of frothing Grant-worshippers I had the opportunity to chat with Grant a couple of comic conventions ago. The topic of "cool" was discussed. A corporation, trying to find out what is cool, does surveys and market research. Merry pranksters tell the interviewers that this year, clown shoes are the super cool thing. So, the mega-corporation, wishing to be cool, heavily promotes their clown shoes until, lo and behold, they ARE cool. It's a silly story, but I think it says something about his philosophy: You can't beat cool, so why not try to use cool to broadcast a message more meaningful than "get a Nike swoosh tattoo"?

PS - At the risk of sounding patronizing, I think you are asking all the right questions and raising the right objections, Traz. I personally feel my similar objections have been satisfactorily addressed, but you may disagree and more power to you.
 
 
deletia
07:55 / 16.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Traz:
I think Grant has become trendy in some circles.


*But* they are the sort of circles in which an elderly bald Scottish gentleman whom nobody outsdie comics has ever heard of can be "trendy". And as such it's not really "trendy" at all.
 
 
adamswish
15:13 / 16.10.01
Traz if you want a fuller understanding of Digital Koncerntration Kamp 1 may I suggest you leaf through "No Logo" (or at the very least stop by the website, address escapes me at the moment).
Gave me a whole new outlook on this chapter and I guess Grant was influenced by this book too, if only for this chapter.
 
 
Graeme McMillan
16:29 / 16.10.01
quote:Originally posted by adamswish:
may I suggest you leaf through "No Logo" (or at the very least stop by the website, address escapes me at the moment).

http://www.nologo.org/
 
 
Mr Wolfe
17:11 / 16.10.01
I had to read a book for soc methodology. . . well you'll just have to take my word for it . . . but it was all about the appearance of the corporation in post-Civil War America + the final analysis was analagous to 1 of Grant's points with DKK1:

Totally disregarding the consumer culture angle, corporate entities are the result of the evolution of the public share holder system. capital now flows outwards to disembodied corporate entities that use it without regard for sustainability, morality, or, in this age of globalization, sovereignity.

Nader would tell you that corporations can't be destroyed in the name of society, but they now have civil rights. Chomsky would tell you that they constitute the largest shift in power in the last 50 years.

I'm guessing that Grant's point is simpler + less apocalyptic than these 2- merely that, in good postmodern/magickal fashion, the corporation is a viral idea that we maintain with our belief + our financial investment. it seems to do something for us, it reproduces itself well, + so we keep it around. "and we're all policemen now."
 
 
Mr Tricks
20:44 / 16.10.01
I've always seen Marvel Boy as the adventures of Jack Frost while swimming in that UFO during the later parts of The Invisibles Vol 2 ....
 
 
A
01:45 / 22.10.01
i kind of see DKK1 as being a comment on how corporations, which are responsible for an astonishing amount of greed and evil in the world, are just ideas that only exist on paper and in people's minds.

a corporation isn't structured to funnel all of it's money towards just one person, which means that mere personal greed isn't it's primary motivation.

corporations seem to act more like organisms- they seem to be more important than the sum of their parts. once a corporation is started, it's role is to grow, by gaining more money and power, but this growth seems almost to be an end in itself.

with that in mind, i think that having a sentient corporation as a comic-book supervillain is a great idea, and this was the issue of Marvel Boy that i enjoyed the most.

also, this issue seemed to be an expansion on the "cities as virus" idea that featured breifly in an early issue of the Invisibles". It often seems that Morrison is frantically trying to get as many of his new ideas as possible into each comic, and therefore claim them as his own, so it's nice to see him go back and revisit one , and expand on it.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
02:54 / 22.10.01
I liked DKK1.....I thought the HEX corp was brilliant, wish it was longer and better executed. Expands on the notion that language/thought are imprints/vessels for alien entity(s).

[ 22-10-2001: Message edited by: Ice Honkey U.B.C.S ]
 
  
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