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Daniel Clowes

Ronald Thomas Clontle

15:44 / 31.07.01

In the past few months, I've fallen hard for the work of Daniel Clowes. At this point, I would just flat out say that he is my favorite comic creator, followed immediately by Grant Morrison. Still, I think Grant is spotty...for every Doom Patrol and Kill Yr Boyfriend and New X-Men, there's JLA and the bulk of the Invisibles run and Mystery Play which just leave me cold. I've never read anything by Clowes which I didn't love...

So here's the thing: there's still a big chunk of Clowes work I haven't read yet...at this point, I have David Boring, Ghost World, Caricature, Dan Pussey, and Like A Velvet Glove Cast In Iron. Can anyone give me feedback on the hard-to-find books out there, like Orgy Bound and Lout Rampage?

Also, can anyone recommend other similar comics, other than ones by R. Crumb, Peter Bagge, and Adrian Tomine, which I'm already familiar with?

17:45 / 31.07.01

I liked his work very much initially... the infatuation phase you mentioned... except that he sticks to the same kinds of settings, themes, characters so much and doesn't vary his art style much. so I stopped buying and I agree with Grant Morrison's opinion that like his peer group he does the "life stucks" stuck record needle thing. I like that more in music or film than in comics or prose fiction. then I get bored with it.

I agree with your point about Grant Morrison too to a point. I didn't enjoy most of his run of JLA and didn't finish some of the graphic albums. others I did and enjoyed. but others seemed as boring as your typical capes and masks escapades I guess...

18:30 / 31.07.01

Chris Ware's stuff, of course, thought he only thing I've read of his is 'Jimmy Corrigan', so sad and wonderful. Check out Howard Cruse, he did 'Stuck Rubber Baby', about growing up gay in Alabama.

And Morrison's run on the invisibles was pretty fucking good all the way through; I'm rerereading all the tpb's and the story just keeps getting better and making more sense, and it feels like the entire world is opening up for me for the very first time, and there's this blinding light and these beautiful voices singing...

Admittedly it didn't seem like his heart was in the whole JLA run, but jebus the man could spread feces on a Denny's menu and I'd probably buy it.

Ronald Thomas Clontle

20:50 / 31.07.01

I'm going to disagree about Clowes being stuck in an eternal "life sucks" mode. True, his work is never uplifting, but I think a large chunk of his work is about examining people who think life sucks, and figuring out why they are compelled to feel that way...I don't feel as though he *always* shares his character's feelings as much as he relates to them. the characters tend to have a lot of justified reasons for feeling the way they do, and sometimes it is an affectation, and I think the majority of his characters have enough depth so that there is a little of both in all of them.

I think that in comparison, Clowes and Morrison are total opposites... one is very half-empty, the other very half-full, that is very obvious from the start. But their work has very different goals...Grant is about ideas, and Clowes is about people. I don't think Clowes is ever trying to get a concept or a grand world view across, and Morrison almost never has strong characterization...the only Morrison comic that I've read which had truly wellrounded characters was the Doom Patrol, and that was limited to only Cliff Steele and Crazy Jane.

Tracypanzer: I've read Jimmy Corrigan, it was pretty good, I liked it, but not in this strong passionate way. I've never heard of Howard Cruse, but I'm not sure how much I'd be into the subject matter...I suppose it depends on how it was done.

Related note: bought the newest issue of Optic Nerve today. Tomine's stuff is very much like Clowes lite, as if Clowes was crossbred with Miramax and Starbucks and Spin Magazine. I like his work, but in the same way I enjoy watching Boston Public or Cohen Bros. movies. As if it's ALMOST at the point of being really smart, but chokes at the last moment.

[ 31-07-2001: Message edited by: Flux = Rad ]

14:48 / 01.08.01

as much as I like the self-effacing interview persona Adrian Tomine put forth in a Comics Journal cover story interview of a few years back his work epitomizes my idea of the lazy comic. or maybe it has more to do with my tastes.

Ronald Thomas Clontle

14:58 / 01.08.01

Though I understand what you mean, I'd like to point out there is nothing lazy about Tomine's draftmanship and storytelling. I think as a cartoonist, he's at the top of his game. It's his writing skills which are weak and a bit lazy.

But then again, I reread the issue with 'Hilary Chan', and I'd say that issue was really well done, and that character was very real and well rounded...but the story never really goes anywhere and ends abruptly. The newest issue (which I now find is not the 'new issue' but last summer's issue) has a well paced and cohesive story, but the characters are just a bit too vague, they come off as archetypes and cyphers. This seems to be the problem with Tomine's work: He can't seem to combine a good plot with good characters, it's always this either/or situation. Still, he's really young, and I think he'll eventually come to a point where he CAN pull off both. He's got a lot of potential.

I'd also like him to be less of a Clowes clone, but whenever I read Clowes stories, I always wish more comics were like his....

15:00 / 01.08.01

I've been slowly working my way through Clowes stuff of recent too.

I haven't read that much, but I love Ghost World, Lloyd Llewellyn and David Boring.

Ronald Thomas Clontle

15:03 / 01.08.01

Hey Rizla...how is Lloyd Llewelyn? I haven't read that one, or know much about it.

I'd recommend getting the Caricature collection next...it's a collection of nine character-based short stories from Eightball.

17:16 / 01.08.01

quote:Originally posted by Flux = Rad:
Also, can anyone recommend other similar comics, other than ones by R. Crumb, Peter Bagge, and Adrian Tomine, which I'm already familiar with?

Harvey Pekar. If you're not reading him, you're really missing out.

There was also a comic that specialized in women creators like Lynda Barry, Aline Kominsky-Crumb, Julie "Dirty Plotte" Doucet (I had to look up her name - bad memory)and a bunch of others. All gone from head right now.

Oh, and I found this
kick-ass college syllabus.

Chester Brown and Jim Woodring might also be up your alley, but they're a bit...weird. Dreamlike.

And check out this page. I just found it. Has links to some great stuff.

18:19 / 01.08.01

quote:Originally posted by grant:
There was also a comic that specialized in women creators like Lynda Barry, Aline Kominsky-Crumb, Julie "Dirty Plotte" Doucet (I had to look up her name - bad memory)and a bunch of others. All gone from head right now.

Twisted Sisters?

My roomie has every issue of Eightball, and I find that half of his work (Ghost World, Lloyd, Pussey) is fantastic, while the other half is lacking in some way. Maybe his stiff drawing style is better suited for certain stories, or I find his work to be emotionally distant, or, well, maybe I'm just a little creeped out by his comics. I feel like I'm reading Chick Tracts everytime I crack one open, and I everytime I swear I'll never read one again. But I always do, because I want to figure out just what is supposed to make him so good in comparison to the half dozen others of his generation who I think are acclompishing more.

I think I've just got to come to accept that his stories just don't speak to me like they do for others, and that it isn't bad comics, just nothing I can sink my teeth into.

That said, Lynda Barry is the Funk Queen of the Fucking Universe, and despite hating his Ed the Happy Clown, Chester Brown's autobiographical work does for me what Clowes' work does for others. Shazam!

Newsflash! Drawn and Quarterly is planning the release of a Gasoline Alley reprint series. Chris Ware, who cites Gasoline Alley as his main comic influence, will be providing the covers. This is going to be brilliant.

[ 02-08-2001: Message edited by: moriarty ]

Ronald Thomas Clontle

23:50 / 01.08.01

That said, Lynda Barry is the Funk Queen of the Fucking Universe,

You know, please don't take this as a personal insult, but I honestly can't think of a single person in the comics/cartooning world whom I dislike more than Lynda Barry. The total lack of talent combined with mindnumbing selfobsession is just far too much for me to take. It's such pretentious crap. Ugh. It's funny that you mention this because I was thinking about this earlier today when I saw her new comic in the NY Press...

One of my big cartooning heroes, Ted Rall did a killer parody of her once...

Grant: Would you mind recommending anything specific by Harvey Pekar or Chester Brown?

I was considering checking out Joe Matt's work as well, but I've got this bad gut feeling about it...

[ 02-08-2001: Message edited by: Flux = Rad ]

00:05 / 02.08.01

quote:Originally posted by Flux = Rad:
You know, please don't take this as a personal insult, but I honestly can't think of a single person in the comics/cartooning world whom I dislike more than Lynda Barry.

I almost flew into a mad rage over your slightly askew opinion of Ms. Barry (self-obsessed?), but then I read this...

quote:One of my big cartooning heroes, Ted Rall

...and I realized that you are just the Bizarro version of me. Or am I the Bizarro version of you?!?

Gasp!

[ 02-08-2001: Message edited by: moriarty ]

00:24 / 02.08.01

One of my big cartooning heroes, Ted Rall did a killer parody of her once...

About time someone here gave a shout-out to Ted Rall! Personally, I think the guy's dead-on hilarious & I proudly have the same Replacements 'Don't Tell A Soul'-era t-shirt that he's sporting in his "Dangerous Drawings" portrait. [off-topic]When I saw Steve Earle a couple of weeks ago, some asshole offered me $75 for it & I told him to go fuck himself.[/off-topic]

I was considering checking out Joe Matt's work as well, but I've got this bad gut feeling about it...

Yeah, it seems very self-absorbed. Kinda like a Woody Allen movie without a supporting cast to actually make the movie worthwile.

And what's wrong with Optic Nerve?!?! Personally, I love it to death. My only 2 beefs are: 1) It takes Adrian forever & a day to come out with a new issue & 2) he doesn't do light-hearted stuff like "Sleep=Waste" anymore.

And for weirdo Clowes-esque stuff, I suggest checking out some of Charles Burns' stuff ("Black Hole", "Skin Deep", etc.). Believe you me, it's some fucked wack shit in the vein of Like A Velvet Glove Cast In Iron.

Ronald Thomas Clontle

00:40 / 02.08.01

About time someone here gave a shout-out to Ted Rall! Personally, I think the guy's dead-on hilarious & I proudly have the same Replacements 'Don't Tell A Soul'-era t-shirt that he's sporting in his "Dangerous Drawings" portrait.

DUDE! Then you'll be happy to know that I'm interviewing him for a Q&A to be submitted to the Barbelith webzine next week! I can't wait. I'm nervous as hell, but I've got some good questions, and he's super nice on the phone, so I shouldn't worry so much.

And for weirdo Clowes-esque stuff, I suggest checking out some of Charles Burns' stuff ("Black Hole", "Skin Deep", etc.). Believe you me, it's some fucked wack shit in the vein of Like A Velvet Glove Cast In Iron.

Black Hole is really nice...it's the only Burns thing I've read, and I haven't gotten around to anything else just yet. I probably won't get around to anything more for a while, since my funds are limited as though I liked it, it didn't really knock me out enough to drive me to seek out the rest of his work.

After thinking about it a bit more today, I can think of far more things that I like about Tomine's work than I can his faults, so I'm going to take back some of the more harsh criticism I've written about him.

Do you know what I think is Optic Nerve's *real* big problem? The letters page full of harsh negative criticism. It places a lot of suggestion into the reader's mind, and it is totally unneccessary. I think Warren Ellis is correct about letters pages in comics, it is completely inappropriate and insulting to the work itself. Would a filmmaker put a reel of harsh criticism about his or her previous work before or after their newest film? Hell no. I'm not sure why Tomine subjects himself and his readers to that sort of thing. Maybe it's part of keeping the low self esteem public image...

[ 02-08-2001: Message edited by: Flux = Rad ]

13:38 / 02.08.01

quote:Originally posted by Flux = Rad:
Grant: Would you mind recommending anything specific by Harvey Pekar or Chester Brown?

Harvey Pekar usually puts stuff out irregularly under the title "American Splendor". There's links to some more stuff under that final page I posted up there. His schtick: short (usually three page) slice-of-life stories - they seem pointless at first, but after you read three or four of them, you'll find them like little haiku or koans. Illuminating in small ways. Some of them are also like shaggy dog jokes - odd punchlines.
There are a couple collections of American Splendor out, I think available on amazon.
Pekar also does single-page jazz biographies which appear in things like the New Yorker I think. He's a big record collector.

Chester Brown, like the Twisted Sisters comic, was one that I read irregularly at a friend's house. The ones I read were self titled, "autobiographical" stories which made me think this was another author under a pseudonym. Not sure.

15:42 / 02.08.01

quote:Originally posted by Flux = Rad:
Hey Rizla...how is Lloyd Llewelyn? I haven't read that one, or know much about it.

It's excellent, one of my favourite cartoons ever. Very funny & cool, easy-going comedy stuff set in the twilight zone between the Beat era and the '60s. Highly reccomended to all.

18:08 / 02.08.01

Flux... me... I like letters pages... many eons ago Cerebus had some doozies. back when Sim stopped replying to them and the writers created their own pre-'net version of this kind of public discourse. (hi mom!)

whoever mentioned him... yeah. I would put Chester Brown on my list of first rate comics people. first first rate. as in top ten. as in greatness.

for first time reader I say go with Ed the Happy Clown. for one thing it will take longer to read than most of his collected works so more value for money.

22:21 / 27.09.02

Believe it or not, Daniel Clowes is currently on a book tour. Here's the listing of appearances from Fantagraphics' website:

DANIEL CLOWES & KIM DEITCH will be on tour together in several cities beginning late this month to promote the release of their new Pantheon collections (as well as the release of our own 20TH CENTURY EIGHTBALL, in Clowes's case), the softcover DAVID BORING and Deitch's THE BOULEVARD OF BROKE DREAMS hardcover. Here's the schedule:

***Wednesday, September 25: NEW YORK
7:30pm --Barnes & Noble, 4 Astor Place, 10003
***Thursday, September 26: BOSTON
7:00 pm &endash; Wordsworth, 30 Brattle Street, Harvard Square, 02138
***Saturday, September 28 &endash; CHICAGO (Includes talk w/Clowes, Deitch & CHRIS WARE!)
3:00 pm -- Quimbyís 1854 W. North Avenue, 60622
***Tuesday, October 1 - ANN ARBOR (includes Q&A)
8:00 pm -- Shaman Drum, 313 South State Street, 48104.
***Wednesday, October 2 - MILWAUKEE
7:00 pm -- H.W. Schwartz, 2559 N. Downer Ave., 53211
***Thursday, October 3 - MADISON (includes Q&A)
7:00 pm -- Canterbury Booksellers, 315 West Gorham St., 53703
***Thursday, October 17 - SAN FRANCISCO (TENTATIVE)
Time tk -- The Booksmith, 1644 Haight Street, 94117
***Thursday, November 7 - OAKLAND (TENTATIVE)
7:30pm -- Diesel, 5433 College Avenue, 94618

"Madison gets a Q & A... Na-na-na-na-naaaah-naaah!!!"

The Natural Way

11:55 / 13.08.03

I agree with Grant Morrison's opinion that like his peer group he does the "life sucks" stuck record needle thing. I like that more in music or film than in comics or prose fiction. then I get bored with it.

Having just reread Ghost World and David Boring for the billionth time, I feel compelled to barge in shaking the head. Y'know, to me this EPITOMISES lazy criticism. It's the sort of thing people say who haven't given Clowes' work enough time....or even read it. The atmosphere of much of Clowes' stuff doesn't readily offer itself up for easy categorisation. The emotional landscape in Ghost world, fr instance, is far more complex then "oh, isn't this depressing...". It is by turns funny, sad, tender, sentimental, yearning and honest to the point of being painful. I find the idea that it can be summed up in a soundbite really stupid and kind of offensive.

The Natural Way

12:02 / 13.08.03

Thinking about it, I see a sea-change coming. I'm normally associated with super-types round here, but, I guarantee you, when I actually get that cash in my pocket, it's indie and fantagraphics ahoy ('part from the League.... Ahhhh, the lovely League)!

I nearly shat over 'Frank' the other day.

Superbooks are nice, but they're kinda like hamburgers.

--

17:52 / 13.08.03

More then any comic book writer out there, Clowes work usually makes me laugh and puts me into a good mood, which is why I like reading him (nice change of pace from the more otherwordly cosmic stuff written by people like Grant Morrison that I usually enjoy reading). The Twenthieth Century Eightball collection is classic.