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Questions about the comics 'scene'

 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
13:51 / 13.07.01
Asking these questions in a thread in the 'art' forum and someone cleverly suggested they'd get a better response here...

I read the odd comic, but know nothing about the comics 'scene' (ie social/cultural/business scene around the artists/writers/publishers etc) and would really appreciate some info... apologies if any of the below makes crap assumptions, pasted from a rather heated conversation...

-------------------------------

A few questions on this point (comics). How easy is it as a woman/non-white artist to get your work out there? Is is a welcoming atmosphere to diversity?

Will these factors affect your attempts to get work used?

How well does being openly queer go down in an industry that appears to thrive on homoerotic imagery while appealing primarily to a young male audience, with all the adolescent machismo that seems likely to entail?

What sort of industry is it, basically, from a worker's-eye point of view

As someone who doesn’t know, I’m trying not to make assumptions and would appreciate some knowledgeable pointers... kooky? Cameron? anyone?
 
 
CameronStewart
16:50 / 13.07.01
>>>A few questions on this point (comics). How easy is it as a woman/non-white artist to get your work out there? Is is a welcoming atmosphere to diversity?<<<

I think that there's likely as much prejudice against sex, race, and orientation as there is in any other industry - i.e. it very likely exists, but it shoudn't be strong enough to block you outright from getting published.

There's plenty of women working in comics (to name but some: Devin Grayson, Trina Robbins, Jill Thompson, Hilary Bader, Sarah Dyer, Jessica Abel, Marguerite Van Cook, Melinda Gebbe, and on the editorial side there's Shelly Bond, Heidi MacDonald and Joan Hilty at DC), there's also plenty of non-whites (Kyle Baker, Denys Cowan, Dwayne MacDuffy, et al).

>>>How well does being openly queer go down <<<

Again, there are many openly gay comics professionals. One of the panel discussions at this year's San Diego con is all about gays in the industry, and is chaired by several high-profile gay comics pros.

Basically I hold the opinion that if your work is good, it will get published, and it will find an audience. If it's not good, well, you've got a tough road ahead, and it's nothing to do with your race, gender, or sexual preference.
 
 
ghadis
17:10 / 13.07.01
Oh Plumy...baby...
Theres room for all us us in the big bad world of comics...just get something out yourself...small press....get a cheap printers and start sending all your weird, non-white, queer stories to anyone who'll look at them...just as rewarding as getting a publisher involved...and after that who knows?...

Although with all my adolescent machismo i'm only into homoerotic imagery so i proberly won't buy it but all the best anyway..xx
 
 
Robot Man Reformed
13:54 / 14.07.01
But isn't it telling that Cameron Stewarts examples, some being my faves, aren't such "hot" commodities or that theyre relatively unknown?
 
 
rizla mission
17:50 / 14.07.01
<what follows is pure speculation>

I think that right-on indie publishers (Oni and Fantagraphics and stuff) would positively leap for joy at the idea of putting out more comics by non-white/female/gay (or any combination thereof) creators.

But on the other hand, I think it would be hard to land a job doing mainstream/superhero stuff. I mean, with the fatbeard fanboy audience still dominant, the big publishers might be wary of handing their cashcows over to a writer who's likely to concentrate more on politics & 'issues' than the more traditional areas of 'who can beat up who' and banal continuity and big guns/big tits money shots...

..does that make any kind of sense?..
 
 
CameronStewart
23:16 / 14.07.01
>>>But isn't it telling that Cameron Stewarts examples, some being my faves, aren't such "hot" commodities or that theyre relatively unknown?<<<

And I'm a young white hetero male. Hmmm....

Rizla: I don't necessarily think that any woman/gay/non-white who lands a job doing mainstream comics is automatically going to exploit it to further their own personal political agenda.

Has anyone read any of Phil "gay as a window" Jiminez' Wonder Woman comics? Were they preoccupied with homosexual themes?
 
 
Ganesh
23:38 / 14.07.01
Sounds uncannily similar to the job scene in Psychiatry: plenty of jobs available, no overt discrimination, loads of women and gay men already existing within the hierarchy - but everything depends on whether or not you can come up with the goods, whoever or whatever you are. Bottom line.
 
 
rizla mission
07:57 / 15.07.01
quote:Originally posted by CameronStewart:

Rizla: I don't necessarily think that any woman/gay/non-white who lands a job doing mainstream comics is automatically going to exploit it to further their own personal political agenda.


Well no, but the publishers may fear that they might do so, and hand over the job to a more reliable geek-boy.

Again, I stress, pure speculation.
 
 
mondo a-go-go
16:58 / 15.07.01
don't really have much time to answer this right now, but you might want to post the same question on the forum at sequential tart as there are a lot of comics' people across the spectrum there. y'know, editors at dc and dark horse, to mini-comics people....

don't think of the industry as purely being uk/usa though. there are a good few women in manga, and the european scene is huge.
 
 
deletia
20:18 / 15.07.01
I think Clive and Cameron, accidentally and from two different directions, have sort of hit on the point here. Jessica Abel, Trina Robbins, Sarah Dyer, Kyle Baker - these are not people regularly employed, to the extent of my limited knowledge, by the majors. In fact, they are not people regularly employed by the minors - Oni, Fantagraphics, Dark Horse. They are often smaller press (Slave Labour and points south), and thus have limited leverage in securing space on the shelves, distribution, economies of scale in production and so on.

It may be argued that the majors do not make the kind of comics which would attract these particular writers, but surely there are women and non-white writers who could write "superhero" or "mainstream" comics? Given this assumption, how many are there on the payroll of Marvel and DC as regular writers on even minor books?

After all, 6 or 7 names, or three, is not in itself a validation when to go down to the levels of circulation that, say, Artbabe or Charm School or Blue Monday have one also at a guess identify a hundred or so white men.

Or a meringue?
 
 
moriarty
02:47 / 16.07.01
The comic book industry is one where the creators are very rarely seen. I did not know, for the longest time, that Kyle Baker was black. Or that Phil Jimenez was gay. Or that Terry Moore was not, in fact, a woman. In addition, there are a great many people employed in the making of a comic book who are seen even less. Many of these people could fall under the criteria being discussed, and we'd never know about it. Hell, Frank Quitely was being touted as gay on this board, and, believe it or not, I was sure Frank Miller was queer for the longest time. Mention was made of the "hot" creators, but these people are just a drop in the bucket to the thousands of creators who toil away behind the scenes. But it is true that, based upon our limited knowledge, the playing field is fairly uneven out there.

Many of the artists listed by Cameron have worked for the mainstream, and have dropped out to put their attention to projects they feel more comfortable with. Linda Medley (Justice League, Doom Patrol to Castle Waiting), and Jill Thompson (Various Vertigo titles to Scary Godmother) are just a few that I can pop off at the top of my head. This supports the idea that maybe many creators that aren't white hetero males are not attracted to the kinds of stories the Big Two's editorial demand, especially if they have some sort of message they would like to put across. In the recent Bizarro Comics from DC Comics(which featured stories by Jesicca Abel, Kyle Baker and Sarah Dyer, among others, the last two artists mentioned being regularly employed by DC) a story was altered because someone wanted to hint that a character who thought she was Batgirl was a lesbian. I'm not sure of the full story, and the editor's may have had their reasons, but the bottom line is that when you play with the Big Boys, you play by their rules. And this is from the company who published Stuck Rubber Baby.

There are a number of problems with this discussion. The parameters aren't set, the definitions are fuzzy. We're talking about the chances of getting involved in a field where 90% of the product is of one genre dominated by a handful of companies. This is like going to a bookstore and finding all but the back corner filled with Western novels. If you really love Westerns, this is great. If you don't, and for some odd reason you still really want a job in the industry, then you have to start learning how to at least fake loving Westerns. And who would want to do that?

Which brings me to the big question. Plummy, are you talking about the artform or the industry. if you're talking about the industry I'd say that there is hope but don't expect to get rich or famous as long as one genre has a stranglehold on the industry. There are a number of great specialised anthologies out there for women, queers and visible minorities. If that brand of specialisation isn't your bag, most alternative presses still welcome a diversity of voices. And if even that fails, do it yourself. As I found out to my personal dismay years ago, the indy scene is almost exactly the opposite of the mainstream comic scene in that Superhero comics do not fly.

If you're talking about comics as an artform, then have you ever considered comic strips? The funny pages have far more visible diversity than the comic book industry does. Especially in the Alternative Weekly strips. As an example, Dykes to Watch Out For has a circulation of 65 papers. That may not seem like much, but if each paper has an average circulation of 20,000 and only one quarter of those readers looks over the strip, then you're seeing an audience that is the size of that of the New X-Men, the current top of the heap in the comic book world. And that's taking into account the notion that an average of 2 people read each issue of X-Men bought. To be honest, I am being very, very conservative. I have no doubt that For Better or Worse has a larger audience than the entire comic book reading population of North America combined.

So, if you don't mind, Plums, could you clarify a few things?

Is this all rhetorical, or are you actually thinking of entering the field?

Artist? Writer? Both?

Are you set on Long Form Narrative, or could you swing Comic Strips?

Do you have a love of Superheroes? Any Genre?

How much do financial rewards come into play in your decisions?

Comics are like any medium. When there are strong voices creating art, an audience, no matter how meagre, will be found. Comics have one wonderful thing going for them in that they are cheap and easy to make. Anyone can do comics.

[ 16-07-2001: Message edited by: moriarty ]
 
 
deletia
06:30 / 16.07.01
Moriarty makes a very good point, that superhero comics aimed primarily at young (or...er...young at heart) male readers dominate the market. But that isn't exactly a get-out-of-jail-free card. It's simply another problem, to go with the problem that we're still talking about (possibly) a dozen female writers who might be expected to get shelf-space in an average-sized, not unusually alternative comic shop - Chynna Clugston-Major, Elizabeth Watashin, who else at present?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
11:35 / 16.07.01
Thanks all for your answers, keep em coming

Thanks Moriarty for your useful and informative spiel... will have a go at answering you qu.s

Is this all rhetorical, or are you actually thinking of entering the field?

Neither, but more the former. The questions arose in a comparison made in another thread between the fields of fine art and comics art.

I was/am trying to understand what the working conditions/opportunities/what the 'work culture' is like in comics, particularly as regards its accessibility to diverse/minority (ick, but you know what I mean) groups... how easy/welcoming is it for people who are 'not the norm'

and for that matter, are there 'norms' (my perception/assuption probably being taht it's primarily white/male/middle class? but having pretty much no basis I know this is just knee-jerk, and and all likelihood, wrong.)

Artist? Writer? Both?

Can't write or draw to save my life, so 'rhetorical' I guess. But i do read comics so am intersted in knowing more about the context of their production. So am interested in the Industry, I guess...


But I'm interested that in giving me advice as a possible practioner, you're asking me what kinds of work i'd be interested in, suggesting that there are areas that wouldn't be worth pursuing in terms of getting work in them?

For example, do female producers tend to end up in specific genres more/and do you think this is down to personal interest or limited scope (eg 'artbabe' strikes me very 'female', for want of a better word... as is 'blue monday', in a very different way)
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
11:39 / 16.07.01
oh for fuck's sake.

Just want to point out that member 187 (the cleverly monikered lick my bitch, plums) [/i]isn't me[/i]
 
 
moriarty
14:52 / 16.07.01
Well, I was fooled, Plummy. Fuck you, #187!

Again, I see a few lines being blurred. Are we talking about minority (double ick) groups getting into the major comic companies, or their own work getting on the shelves? If it's the former, then, like Cameron said, if they have the chops, they would get the job. In most cases comic employers will not see you or know personal details of your life. Add to this the fact that there are a great deal of editors who would fall under the category set out in this thread. In fact, I'd guess that there are more editors that aren't white hetero males than artists. Why? I dunno. This is all dependent on your ability to do what the Big Boys want. This is commercial Work-for-Hire, after all.

The major comic companies aren't really to blame for wanting to narrow their output of subject matter. They can choose to publish whatever crap they want to. I think it's wrongheaded to believe that the state of comics rests on the future diversity of the big companies. Where they are at fault is in using their influence to make the world believe that there is only one type of comic book, and therefore shut out the rest of the industry.

If it's a simple matter of getting their own personal material on the shelves, then they are in the same boat as most other indy cartoonists. In fact all indy cartoonists share the same enemy, if you will. And they are the ones striving to correct this lopsided industry, no matter their gender, race or sexual orientation. Julie Doucet is comparable to Joe Matt who is comparable to the Henandez Bros. who is comparable to Howard Cruse.

I think the major divide in diversity is between indy and mainstream, not white hetero male and the rest of the world.
 
 
Sandfarmer
09:11 / 17.07.01
I've really nothing to add to the conversation but I'd like to say...

1) I really enjoy Phil's "Wonder Woman". In this time when you can't find a TV show without fake lesbians slobbering all over each other, its refreshing to see someone produce a comic book about Amazons without trying to cash in on "lesbian chic". (Not that I don't love lesbians just as much as baby Jesus loves all the little children of the world, I just think that using the celbrity-actress-lesbian-kiss to boost ratings has run its course. I mean, didn't "L.A. Law" milk that cow years ago?)

2) I really dig Sarah Dyer's art. Nice establishing shots and backgrounds. Good expression.
 
 
CameronStewart
12:42 / 17.07.01
Interestingly, one area in comics in which women really shine is colouring - Lauras Allred and Depuy are two of the very finest colourists in the business...
 
 
mondo a-go-go
12:48 / 19.07.01
quote:Originally posted by moriarty:
This is commercial Work-for-Hire, after all.


i have noticed that a HUGE number of "hack" artists on superhero and bad-girl titles are either hispanic or korean/oriental. it seems these artists either prefer to draw in that style ("bad"? noooo, i didn't say that! honest), or else this is the only kind of work they can get? i'm not sure that it is the latter, though.

colleen doran has been a professional comics artist since she was 15. she produces her creator-owned a distant soil, as well as doing a lot of superhero titles, but she's (along with jill thompson) the exception to the rule.

one thing about jill thompson, though -- she has been called the "muse" of several creators. characters that look like her or are based on her crop up in the sandman and much of p craig russell's work (like his current adaptation of the ring of the nibelung. there was an article in popimage ages ago, you might find it in their archives...
 
 
Jack Fear
12:54 / 19.07.01
...but, oddly enough, not in Brian Azzarello's work.

Which seems strange, given that they're, y'know, married n' all.

[ 19-07-2001: Message edited by: Jack Fear ]
 
 
mondo a-go-go
21:18 / 20.07.01
something else -- if you're in america, you can get a publishing grant from the xeric foundation. a lot of good creators get a higher profile this way because diamond will ship titles with the xeric seal of approval. i'm not sure if you're elligble for the grant if you're not american though
 
 
mondo a-go-go
13:05 / 24.07.01
there's a pretty good interview with colleen doran here -- she talks about the different attitudes to women in america and japan.
 
  
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