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Rachel Pollack's Doom Patrol

 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
01:26 / 11.07.01
Simple enough question: did anyone here like it? Read it? Even vaguely comprehend it?

I'm not sure why I started thinking about her run today, but I have the most mixed feelings about it...I guess I was between 14 and 16 or so when it came out, and I remember really liking some issues, but thinking a large portion of her writing for the comic was pretentious crap...and I really hated how she would seem to ape the weirdness of Grant's run without the substance of it all...but now I'm wondering if, since time has passed, and I'm a lot more knowledgeable about the issues regarding feminism, sexuality, transgender, and mysticism that dominated her run, I'd appreciate it more. Alas, I don't have any of them here to check...

[ 11-07-2001: Message edited by: Clontle ]
 
 
the Fool
03:09 / 11.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Clontle:
...and I really hated how she would seem to ape the weirdness of Grant's run without the substance of it all...


Sort of like Mark Waid's current run on JLA methinks...
 
 
King Mob
05:57 / 11.07.01
yeah, i thought her whole run was derivitive and sacreligous.

alright, i only read up to issue #70, but it's not like shit gets better with age!
 
 
Cochese
10:04 / 11.07.01
I didn't mind it that much - I'd heard such bad things about it, and let's face it anything after the Grant run would be bound to dissapoint, but, you know, you know... I was rather nicely surprised.
 
 
CameronStewart
10:29 / 11.07.01
I thought it was fucking disgraceful, myself. I'm sure I still would.

A character that talks only in sentences that make the acronym "G.R.A.N.T." Fuck off.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
13:43 / 11.07.01
After I started this thread, I looked up Rachel Pollack and Doom Patrol online, and it seems that for every one person who liked it, there are three hundred who hated it with a deep burning passion. There's a lot of bile out there directed at Ms. Pollack!

I guess a lot of the comments here are leading to another question: Is it even possible to successfully follow Grant's tenure on any given title? I can't imagine how they'll replace him when he's finished with New X-Men, I doubt there will be anyone who will be able to pick up where he'll leave off, I imagine they'll probably just go retro or something...
 
 
Axel Lambert
14:53 / 11.07.01
As I remember it, when the artwork was good (McKeever!!!), the scripted work as well. When the art was bad (and man was it baaaad)it really sucked.
 
 
Jamieon
15:26 / 11.07.01
quote: A character that talks only in sentences that make the acronym "G.R.A.N.T." Fuck off.

I'd forgotten about that. God, that was bad!
 
 
Robot Man Reformed
15:30 / 11.07.01
I never bothered with Pollack but has anyone else checked out Morrison's Doom Patrol lately? Sure, "nostalgia", but these comics haven't aged well, and neither has Case's stilted artwork.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:33 / 11.07.01
quote:Originally posted by a life to the World:
I never bothered with Pollack but has anyone else checked out Morrison's Doom Patrol lately?


Yes.

That last issue is still the most emotionally-affecting single issue of a comic I've ever read. And Case's artwork may start out slightly stilted, but by the end of his run the two were working in perfect symbiosis, IMHO.
 
 
Robot Man Reformed
15:36 / 11.07.01
The last issue would be Robot Man rummaging in Niles' hardware? And Danny the street becoming the world?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:42 / 11.07.01
Er... no. The last issue is mainly about Crazy Jane, and where she's ended up. "There is another world", that good stuff, yes?
 
 
Jamieon
15:48 / 11.07.01
Danny The Steet becoming Danny The World hasn't aged well?

My arse.

"Singularly affecting" indeed........
 
 
Robot Man Reformed
15:48 / 11.07.01
What? Was that Grant's last issue? I always thought it was the one I just described, you know, where Dorothy says to a ballon to take her to the real world.

Fuck.
 
 
Jamieon
15:51 / 11.07.01
That's the 2nd to last issue, old chum.
 
 
Robot Man Reformed
16:01 / 11.07.01
Fair enough, then.

What I meant by the issues not having aged well is that I have some aesthetic problems with how the issues were executed. Case is really good inking himself but the last storyline where only his lay-outs were used seem so rushed and half-arsed.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
16:23 / 11.07.01
I don't know, I think the Grant Doom Patrols have aged well, and I'm reasonably certain that I will always love his DP work above all other things he's done... there's a lot of sentimental value for me, especially the last ten or so issues. I'm with the guy who said that the last issue with Crazy Jane is one of the most emotionally effecting comics...that issue breaks my heart and makes me smile at once every time I read it.

Crazy Jane is my all-time favorite comic book character, hands down.

The issue with Danny the Street becoming Danny The World was also beautiful...I love when Rebis just flies off...and the issue when Niles explains his real plan to Cliff, and the nanomachines are let loose, and the Candlemaker kills Niles...fantastic stuff.

And like I said earlier in this thread, Richard Case is one of, if not my single favorite comic artists...

[ 11-07-2001: Message edited by: Clontle ]
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:11 / 11.07.01
As for whether anyone can follow Morrison - if the replacement has a distinctive style and takes the comic where they want it to go, why not?

Grant's good. He's not God.
 
 
King Mob
18:34 / 11.07.01
wHILE HIS run on Animal Man was absolutely fucking fantastic, Milligan's follow up issues were pretty good too.

if anyone had to follow his run on Doom Patrol it should of been someone who would take it off it a completely different direction, like milligan for example.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
15:27 / 12.07.01
I felt the ending to the Pentagon storyline was a bit weak and rushed, maybe that's just because when it was written the idea of their being a big conspiracy in Government wasn't mainstream. The Rebis issue i don't understand AT ALL and the stuff with Crazy Jane confronting her father and healing herself I don't get either.
Does Pollack explain what happens to Cliff and Jane after he saves her on the bridge?
(And if any of the Londoners on here Know of a comic shop that has the first twenty odd issues of Morrison's run let me know, I've tried FP, that shop round the corner from it, Comicana, Gosh! and Mega City and they all seem to start their runs from about issue 37)
The issue with Caulder explaining his dastardly plan behind creating the Doom Patrol is excellent. I knew nothing of the events he describes, but even so I thought it was wonderful.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
15:39 / 12.07.01
[QUOTE]Originally posted by See Loz Run, Run Loz Run:
The Rebis issue i don't understand AT ALL and the stuff with Crazy Jane confronting her father and healing herself I don't get either.


to be honest, I'm not sure if I totally understand those issues either. I think the Rebis issue was about the negative spirit's regenerative process, this eternal series of rebirths, and coming to terms with being two distinct people and genders... I haven't read the issue in maybe two years, but I really loved the scenes with Rebis as a transexual prostitute in the bandage and corset...and the other prostitute commenting on hir skin color, like mocha coffeee...

The thing with Jane is that she headed back to Metropolis, went to the church where she was raped and lost it and went on a rampage, then went back to the house where she grew up in and went to the bottom of the well, where if I recall was where she hid from her dad as a kid. Cliff went after her, believing that she was going to kill her dad, but finds out that her dad died years ago.


Does Pollack explain what happens to Cliff and Jane after he saves her on the bridge?


Pollack only briefly shows Jane in a cameo at some point, but it was pretty meaningless. As far as I'm concerned, Grant's last issue was the end of the story and that's that.

At the end of the story, Jane is taken away from the "real" world, and Cliff takes her off to Danny The World, and it's a big happy bittersweet ending.


For a detailed annotation of Grant and Rachel's Doom Patrols, go here.

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: Clontle ]
 
 
Ria
19:01 / 12.07.01
edited by me so as to not repeat lots of other people who said that they didn't consider GM's DM overrated.

I have decided to never read Rachel Pollack's issues not because I don't like her writing... I do... but because no one could have followed GM on this particular book and I wouldn't like to see them try. note that I said "this particular book".

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: Kriztalyne ]
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
05:03 / 14.02.04
Bumpity Bump.

What I love about the last few issues case does (the start of the fucking horrible Pollack run) is that he clearly doesn't give a shit anymore...

What did he do after DP?
 
 
mr Squiggle
07:52 / 14.02.04


At the time I thought if someone as talented as McKeever finds Pollacks writing worthwhile there must be something to it that Im missing. They printed these letters from Jeff DeMos (whatever happen to ...) discussing all these subtle references but I didnt find the story interesting enough to look for them. In an interview Linda Medley talked about how the editors would try out different artist combinations to try & boost sales but didnt seem to want to face that it was their award winning sci-fi novelist that wasnt working out.
 
 
mr Squiggle
08:21 / 14.02.04
I think the next thing Case did was that mediocire Jamie Delano mini Ghostdancing then those forgetable final issues of Shade.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
11:00 / 14.02.04
The last thing that I'm aware of Case working on was the Dylan Horrocks Hunter series. Some of the more half-assed artwork he's done, IMO.
 
 
Crestmere
08:05 / 16.05.06
i read a few issues and I'm not sure if I want to get the rest.

Its either a masterpiece of postmodern comic storytelling or its 20 issues of complete and utter nonsense and I have absolutely no idea which.

What do you guys think?

Would I be better served elsewhere?
 
 
This Sunday
10:13 / 16.05.06
I liked the Pollack run, immensely. I'd like to say I was the one person buying it, but I was actually just getting copies from a friend of the author's, at the time. So somebody else had to have been actually paying for it. Which, by my count, means there are at least four people who enjoyed the run.

It very clearly didn't have an interest in moving the whole 'Doom Patrol' thing forward, but treated it as an extant playground. Which, allowed it to communicate much more efficiently than trying to one-up Morrison's run, or regress back to Kuperberg, Drake, or do the Byrne-revisionism people just spent months standing beside, eyes to the ceiling, whistling and pretending not to notice until it went away.

Instead of trying to service the point-by-point plot arcing across time from the DP's first appearance to their inevitable next, she just treated it as a mode. And Dorothy was fun.

I gather some people didn't like the author's apparent agendas and some of the elements and issues raised in the narrative. Others, simply didn't like the methods and manner of the narrative, itself. But, it wasn't really a Morrison-cloning experiment, and it wasn't the same old, same old. New is indeed a virtue, just for what it shows us. And I thought the preachiness of certain bits, the sexual and racial politics and magicky aspects, while not something I necessarily agree with, were thick, not because we as audience have to agree, but because it provided a thick, solid atmosphere.

It seems more than Morrison's, this was the run that made rebooting the book harder, simply because Pollack's Doom Patrol don't give a fuck and serial fictions are meant to have a fiat. Serial superbooks need a viable commercial log-line and some sense of future-that-looks-like-golden-past. When someone goes through an issue of the run, it probably makes John Byrne cry.

I'm going to have to reread.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
14:07 / 16.05.06
Pollack's Doom Patrol has its moments. There are times when McKeever's spotty art hit a high note combined with Pollack hitting her own high note and it popped; I'm thinking specifically of an issue amid the Teiresias Wars where Kate & Cliff head into the desert, merged (really good splash page of the two-as-one) and then the contrast & merging of their surgical transformations (Cliff into Robotman, Kate's reassignment surgery) worked for me as well. That and a particular splash by McKeever of the Sexually Remaindered Spirits flying up toward the reader...

On the other hand, most of the run was spent with a bunch of characters who didn't really have any reasons to stay around each other. If Pollack had kept the group limited to the Chief, Cliff, and Dorothy it could have worked with the sitcom-like vibe that popped up a little bit, but most of her additional characters like the bandage people never quite linked up with the rest of the dynamic. Their entrances seemed forced, and this Doom Patrol never quite figured out what it wanted to be; Morrison's Patrol was essentially a therapy group that doubled as world-savers, but Pollack's Patrol had a couple well-adjusted members, some sort of silly Danger Room VR thing that didn't seem necessary, and no explicit or implicit function beyond "appearing in a comic called the Doom Patrol."

There was also that doll, Charlie, the Inner Child or whatever. He really bugged me, but he highlighted some of the problems with Dorothy and her fairly ill-defined powers that even Morrison had problems writing.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:16 / 16.05.06
I read the first story and the last and that gave me no desire to read anything in between, though McKeever's awful art for the last few issues is as much to blame. 'Sliding Amidst the Wreckage' read like the weakest parts of GM's run (the circus issue, the Sex Men). But I didn't like what I read of her other fiction, so I suppose it's her style that didn't appeal.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
14:41 / 16.05.06
I keep encountering people who seem to think McKeever is a really good artist, but most of the time his style does absolutely nothing for me. It all looks blotchy, anatomically incorrect, and poorly considered.
 
 
This Sunday
18:31 / 16.05.06
McKeever's work often seems to lack a narrativity which (narrative) comics probably ought to possess, however there is the occasion, which appears to be nothing more than a happy accident, where the bends and folds and inappropriateness are actually far better at communicating than a more studied attempt could portray. If there were several versions of each page, and only those Happy Accident pages were retained for publication - oh, what wonders! But, no, instead, there's a lot of serviceable work.

I don't buy comics, usually, for just the writing or the art (because comics are writing and art, or they're just pictures grouped with a text or a text accompanying a picture), however, I will excuse one side being slighter than the other, as long as it's 'serviceable', doing it's job even at the meagerest. McKeever's a bit better, I'd say, at illustrating Pollack's 'Doom Patrol' writings, than the recent artists of 'X-Men' have handled Peter Milligan's scripts, but I don't find Rachel Pollack to be as good as Milligan... so it balances out. The best written comic could have upside down stick figures in a blurry haze and I'd probably be cool with that.

Anatomy and photo-realism adherence hold very, very little value to me. There's leagues difference between the work of Rob Liefeild and Pablo Picasso, and yet, damned if sometimes both of them have drawn birds that would never actually hold a sustained flight in the really real world.

Gilliam said something, somewhere, about his 'Bros. Grimm' film, and how, with the (were)wolf, they had to stretch out the face, sometimes, because at certain angles, a realistic wolf's head would appear to the audience to be more like a bear. They had to lie, visually, to communicate correctly.

Similarly, the film 'Mori no Densetsu' begins as a series of still illustrations just being slid around, like the jiggling old Marvel cartoons, before becoming, with maturity, first some vaguely-empty, black and white outlines, and then lush, colorful, full animation, as it tracks the life and times of one of the greatest type of cartoon animal ever, the flying squirrel. Because visually, those elements communicated pre-birth, childhood, and maturity (of a sort) in our protagonist in a way strict photorealism - even a real flying squirrel - could not.

I wonder if McKeever's better with personal, stand-alone pieces? Anyone know?
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
10:26 / 17.05.06
I wonder if McKeever's better with personal, stand-alone pieces? Anyone know?

Yes... Plastic Forks was great, as was Eddy Current/Metropol. I really should track down The Extremist at some point, actually... I love both Milligan and McKeever, and it sounds promising.

I wonder how many 'lithers read Metropol? It had an interesting Gnostic underpinning, if I recall correctly. Might start a spin-off thread if I can't find one on here already.

Threadrot off... I am firmly in the Hater column for the Pollack run. Re-reading them as an adult a few years ago just confirmed my high-school impression: they read like something written to impress everyone with how clever the author is, than something written to actually tell a story. One of the things I appreciate about Moore, Morrison, and Milligan is that they find great themes and concepts as underpinnings for a story, but they use these concepts as underpinnings for a story.

Pollack's DP, by contrast, reads to me like an undergraduate Women's Studies project with pictures of various Doom Patrol members drawn on top of it. The function of the story is to make Pollack's points, not to be a story, and that bugs me no end.
 
  
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