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Richard Littlejohn, Nicky Campbell and Will Self

 
  

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Kit-Cat Club
13:21 / 12.03.02
I am saddened, but not astonished, that you should ascribe such opinions to me. I hoped that you would not descend to character assassination - alas, in vain.

For the record, I regard Jan Pienkowski's work as being on a par with Burglar Bill. Perhaps you are confusing my opinion on Pienkowski with my opinion on Mog, the Forgetful Cat? The mistake is easy to make.
 
 
The Planet of Sound
13:30 / 12.03.02
I would humbly point out that Jan's pop-up work on Haunted House is far superior to the Meg and Mog canon. And that Roger Hargreaves is the far superior draftsman.

What does anyone think of Jonathon Coe?
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
13:33 / 12.03.02
What? What do you achieve by this jejune snow-jobbing? The mistake is not "easy to make". The mistake is in trusting the word of one who dares put a simple piece of narrative, of whatever quality, on a par with the exciting experiments in form and function that characterised Pienkowski's redefinition of the category "book".

Burglar Bill wears a stripey jumper, for god's sake! Doesn't that *mean* anything to you? Doesn't it suggest you may have missed something?
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
13:35 / 12.03.02
quote:Originally posted by The Planet of Sound:
What does anyone think of Jonathon Coe?


3 for 2 in Borders - can't argue with that.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:37 / 12.03.02
I'm curious to know why you put Alex Garland and Self in the same bracket. They were at the same school (mine, actually) but I think Self is rather older.

Other than that I can't really see the comparison. Garland's big hit was the zeitgeisty 'The Beach', a well-written but finally trivial riff on Apocalyopse now which suffered from the fact that the protagonists were poverty day-trippers and the backdrop was a neohippy commune on some dope-grower's island, rather than Colonial Africa or Wartime Vietnam. Self has rather more staying power, it seems.

But if you want the names of English writers superior to either of them the list is not short.
 
 
The Planet of Sound
13:43 / 12.03.02
Alex Garland is younger, indeed. Purely a comparison in terms of seeing people on the tube reading smugly to themselves and believing themselves to be reading something edifying, hip or imaginative; The Beach and The Tesseract are derivative, turgid drivel of the highest order. And I loathe the lucky, lucky, lucky, good-looking, book-publishing, zeitgeisty Hampstead over-privileged fuck...

Wow! Coe! 3 for 2! Off I pop.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:43 / 12.03.02
If you are under the impression that Pienkowski's pop-up work redefined the category 'book' I can only pity you. And if by asking whether I have noted that Burglar Bill wears a stripy shirt you intend to point out an element of derivation in the pictorial narrative, may I direct your attention to the equally derivative pages of Haunted House? You are privileging form over content.

Jonathan Coe is really quite good, though I've only read What a Carve Up!. Can we stop this wretched thread-rot and talk about him in the Books forum, please?

[ 12-03-2002: Message edited by: Kit-Cat Club ]
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
13:50 / 12.03.02
Wussy.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:53 / 12.03.02
Wussy? I was merely trying to prevent this thread getting clogged with useless arguments about Coe et al. You just want an excuse.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:54 / 12.03.02
quote:Originally posted by The Planet of Sound:
Alex Garland is younger, indeed. Purely a comparison in terms of seeing people on the tube reading smugly to themselves and believing themselves to be reading something edifying, hip or imaginative; The Beach and The Tesseract are derivative, turgid drivel of the highest order. And I loathe the lucky, lucky, lucky, good-looking, book-publishing, zeitgeisty Hampstead over-privileged fuck...

Wow! Coe! 3 for 2! Off I pop.


Charming. So when you say '3 for 2', do you mean your irritating rant to be offensive to me as well as the other two, or was that just a happy by-product of your self-indulgent little off-the-peg whine?
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
13:57 / 12.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Kit-Cat Club:
Wussy? I was merely trying to prevent this thread getting clogged with useless arguments about Coe et al. You just want an excuse.


So we can still clog it up with arguments about Pienkowski, Meg, Mog et al?
 
 
Persephone
13:58 / 12.03.02
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Horror:
Wussy.


Noooo you say, "You always end with a jade's trick, I know you of old."

It's all so romantic.

<crunching popcorn>
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:05 / 12.03.02
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Horror:


So we can still clog it up with arguments about Pienkowski, Meg, Mog et al?


It is nothing if not clogged. You may, of course, wish to remove to a more appropriate location to conduct these disputations. I simply object to being called a wuss.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:09 / 12.03.02
Kit-Cat, I'm being all huffy and offended here. You guys are messing up my grumpy mood.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
14:16 / 12.03.02
The jade's trick in question here is, of course, to assume that the conversation could somehow be steered away form the contribution of the Nordic nations. Is it not a depressing reflection on the insularity of our modern "literary scene" that the parallels between Self's "Great Apes" and Lindgren's "Karlsson on the Roof" have yet to be mentioned? Or is it a deliberate piece of hedging by Betty the Burglar over there in the Kit-Cat suit?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:24 / 12.03.02
How is it possible to argue with this? It is so clearly wrong-headed. Great Apes is a reversal of Kafka's Metamorphosis, whereas Karlsson on the Roof fits far more easily into the picaresque tradition. I am heartened to note that you are abandoning the original bases of argument - clearly you realise your position is untenable.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:26 / 12.03.02
And more to the point, who will stop Planet of Sound from oppressing the over-privileged?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:28 / 12.03.02
I find it scandalous that there's been no mention of the Ahlbergs' masterwork, The Jolly Postman, at this point.

If pretenders such as Garland and Self are being given airspace, it seems an oversight at best that 'Postman', which combines style and content in a way that the 'Meg' series has yet to approach and whose Postman figure is clearly the source for much of Self's narrator-driven work, is not being given its rightful place in these discussions.

This is without even mentioning the postmodern recuperation of the epistolary novel that the Jolly Postman pioneered...
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
14:31 / 12.03.02
First, Carlsson on the roof is not picaresque, most obviously because the picaro character - Carlsson himself - is not the narrative centre of the piece. It is rather an examination, if anything, of the sudden intrusion into an ordered society of a single wrong note, and as such perfectly comparable to Great Apes...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:37 / 12.03.02
No doubt it is comparable, but I question how appropriate the comparison is - surely the tone of Great Apes makes it more comparable to overtly satirical works? Such as Fattypuffs and Thinifers.

I fear I must bow out of the discussion at this point - about to lose computer access. But I shall return.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:49 / 12.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Flyboy:
And more to the point, who will stop Planet of Sound from oppressing the over-privileged?
Is that the sound of Flyboy expropriating someone else's pain?

Gosh, what a shock.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:34 / 12.03.02
What pain would that be, Nick? The pain that comes from you hopelessly getting the wrong end of the stick in regards to PoS' use of the phrase '3 for 2', or the pain that Self and Garland must suffer, day by day, as part of that most oppressed class of people, successful writers from wealthy backgrounds?

[ 12-03-2002: Message edited by: Flyboy ]
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
15:38 / 12.03.02
"pain". you peasant. It's French for "bread". Nick is being classy. You are expropriating another's bread, that is seizing it for your own use. You're like the Chef who invented eggs benedict, but with much less to work with.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
17:20 / 12.03.02
Haus, be serious for a second or stay the fuck out.

Flyboy:

I was refering to the pain of 'the oppressed' - the real ones - whose number includes either both or neither of us, depending on how you want to define them (or us), and on whose behalf you so readily raise the hue and cry.

I was somewhat offended by Sound going off on a rant about 'Hampstead people', especially directly after I made it clear I was one by that standard, but I suspect it was meant in fun.

You, on the other hand, are apparently content with the term and all it implies. That kind of classification is ludicrous. Would we accept any similar one? Would you be comfortable if someone talked like that about "Golder's Green People"? If I had attended a school which was noted for being largely Jewish rather than merely between Finchley and East Heath Road, would you accept discussion of the 'kind of person who goes there' or 'what kind of family lives in that area'? Or would you suspect something rather less palatable than mere social comment was going on?

I will not apologise for where I come from. My unlamented grandfather was a convicted and frequently imprisoned felon, a wife-beater, a bankrupt, a pal to the Krays and a fantasist; my grandmother abandoned my father to this man's tender mercies when the boy was five.

He's one of those 'wealthy backgrounds' (what a lovely, bland, unrevealing phrase: it makes all kinds of soft accusations without seeming to describe more than an economic level). I know quite a few others, too - Holocaust survivors, middle European and South African refugees, you know the kind of rich bastards I mean. No, of course they're not the rule. But nor are they so great an exception that you should feel remotely happy with the notion.

I'm the product of this background. My privilege, purely and simply, derives from my father's ability, by dint of his intelligence and perception, to get out of the world he inhabited as a child and keep me from it also. Which must be a common goal in every slum from Newcastle to Perth. Will you tell those people not to want that, or is the line between virtue and sin measured in the achievement of your goals?

Using the idiot-cards like 'Hampstead' or 'wealthy background' is just another way to avoid thinking, to make easily blamed or disliked groups, and to avoid dealing with individuals and the knotty problems of legitimate actions they throw up.

Do we discuss revolutions and better world so that we can advocate a society which bases assessments on where you were born or grew up or were educated? On what kind of family you are born to? Are those good yardsticks? Or are those the errors of the society we all so intensely disparage?

I have no problem with the idea that I owe the world. But I will not be reproached for what I am or where I come from. Nor should you wish to do so.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
18:04 / 12.03.02
Oh, for crying out loud...

Nick, my first post was just an amused one motivated by what I saw as slightly misplaced outrage on your part - Planet of Sound wasn't aiming his diss at you, and I'm sure Alex Garland is far too busy counting his piles and piles of lovely, lovely money to worry about Planet dissing him, let alone to need your protection. You saw this somehow, and I have no idea how, as me "expropriating someone else's pain (again)", a fairly insulting suggestion, not to mention one that's pretty familiar to me from less worthy sources than yourself.

If you want to discuss the ins and outs of wealth, privilege, class and background, or this idea of "expropriating someone else's pain" (as opposed to being genuinely bothered by the idea of human suffering, I suppose?) - I think both of those would be worthy subjects for their own threads, where a potted history of the Nick clan might not seem quite so derailing.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
19:12 / 12.03.02
Flyboy, I'm from Hampstead. I grew up there after we moved from the South West, was educated there, at the same school as Alex Garland, Will Self, and for interest, China Mieville, who wrote Perdito Street Station and stood as a socialist candidate in the last election. So when someone goes on a rant about 'Hampstead people' that means me, just as it would if you said 'blonde men' or '29-year-olds' or come to that, 'writers from wealthy backgrounds'.

So I was peeved, but not terribly. I just wanted to put a shot across Sound's bows.

You, however, brought in the issue of 'over-privileged' as a description of these guys, and if it fits them and theirs, it must, by definition, also fit me and mine. You combined it with a mention of oppression which suggested that anyone who lived in those circumstances could have no notion of such a thing. Casual assumptions for an idiot 'revolutionary' class judgement predicated on prejudice, not substantiated by individual cases, but an acceptable phantom of bourgeois iniquity and monied isolation.

And I'm fucking tired of it. It's every bit as offensive as it would be if you wandered around declaring that all fair-haired people were natural Nazis.

As to your expropriation of pain, yes, I'm sure you've been told before and I'm fascinated by your suggestion that it was by sources who are less 'worthy'.

Everyone here is bothered by the suffering of others. That's not at issue, at least for me. And you will recall that I recently tried to discuss the term 'privilege' in the Head Shop, and that the first thing that happened was that someone suggested I was only interested in doing so to escape my own discomfort at being part of the system. Newsflash: I don't have any. Responsibilities and obligations contingent on my good fortune, yes. Guilt, no.

So I'm sorry to bore you with my brief account of family history, but it was relevant to what I was seeing on the page. I'm sorry to have derailed this thread, but, as has been said before in similar situations, sometimes you have to act right there when you see it, not later.
 
 
Persephone
19:32 / 12.03.02
Hullo there, Nick, I wonder if it might be possible to look at this...

quote:Originally posted by Nick:
Casual assumptions for an idiot 'revolutionary' class judgement predicated on prejudice, not substantiated by individual cases, but an acceptable phantom of bourgeois iniquity and monied isolation.

And I'm fucking tired of it.


...sort of another way around? I hear you, how just damn sick and tired you get of this shit. And this is how I hear you:

a) as a not-white person, tired tired tired of slams direct and oblique,

b) as an American, guilty guilty guilty about living on the backs and blood of so much the rest of the world,

c) as a woman, tired

d) as a heterosexual, guilty

e) sometimes, as a hearing person, guilty...

If I can horrendously clash together my metaphors, the shoe pinches all around and sometimes it helps to put the shoe on the other foot? E.g., you're tired of being categorized one way; but when you feel that way, that's your best *connection* to the way other people feel.

I've arranged my tired and guiltys in a neat pattern above; but I'm tired, too, of sweeping generalizations about American privilege.

So I believe I understand how you feel; but also I think that you can plug into that differently, too.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
20:36 / 12.03.02
Edited because it rambled drunkenly about something else entirely.

[ 13-03-2002: Message edited by: ZoCher ]
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:01 / 13.03.02
I think I liked it better when everyone was being silly...

For the record, my "3 for 2" comment was precisely to say that Jonathon Coe books were a part of a recent 3 for 2 offer at Borders, which was the last time they impinged on my head (having an uncorrected proof of "House of Sleep" from my beautiful and talented sister, I had never seen the cover before, and so was more noticey than at other times), and thus Sound's response was presumably along the lines of "w00t! Inexpensive good books!". Not, as I believe our tennis-reporting tabloid friends would say, a Federer case.

However, familial privilege. As Nick has described, one of the happy things in our world is that we don't have to end up where our ancestors started. My parents were the first of both their families to go to University, and they both faithfully expect myself and my sister to surpass them, in whatever way we choose. Which is pressure, but also an enormous show of faith in a world where these things can happen. Possibly my perspective may be skewed by a lengthy conversation about how the Brahmin class functions in Bengal this evening, but there is a fluidity and at least a sniff of meritocracy about our particular word which is hopefully to be encouraged.

On the other hand, there is presumably little dissent to the idea that certain people,perhaps by dint of the advantages conferred on them by heredity or nationality or personal resources, are "better off" than others. Lyra has proposed that these advantages should to some extent be "levelled off" by the legislated redistribution of "unearned" wealth - beyond what is already levelled in investment tax, stamp duty and the like. Biodynamo (or possibly BioK9 - forgive an old man's poor memory) has suggested that a *universal* standard of living rather worse than that currently enjoyed by us fellows typing away at our expensive computers in countries with a largely functional telecommunications system and the personal means to purchase services from it, but rather better than that of many we share a globe with, could be maintained by globally redistributive methods. Being no econonomist, I cannot comment on these theses. I can only posit that ipso facto, the possession of these privileges makes us, on a global level "over-privileged" at least in comparison to a statistical mean. Arguably we must compare ourselves against what steps we have taken to change that world for the better.

And, lest we forget, to be born English is to be already a winner in life's lottery (bonus points for naming *that* reference). Or, indeed, one should thank the gods that one is born human and not an animal, a man and not a woman, a Greek and not a barbarian and an Athenian rather than any other Greek (likewise, although that one is both misquoted and a piece of piss).

Now, simply to feel guilty about that, or indeed to embark on a campaign of guilt-inducement against those who seem to have yet more of the winning numbers than oneself may seem to be a less than constuctive response. But, conversely, to compare such sniffiness with an accusation of Nazism is perhaps less than litotic.

Or, to quote myself for a change, which is the bone, and which the shoulder? Who is the dog, and who the owner?

Personally, I find the intrusion of autobiography into these discussions as fundamentally unlikely to be productive as the introduction of greased penis into cyber-ear that seems to crop up about as often lately. As an outrigger to which, you two seem to be developing a level of personal emnity entirely transcendent of the rights and wrongs of any particular case being argued. Have you considered meeting for a drink in some establishment neither contaminated by the bourgeois Boreas or the Trustafarian Euros?

[ 13-03-2002: Message edited by: The Haus under the Ocean ]
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:01 / 13.03.02
Persephone - of course it's possible to look at it that way round, but here at least it should be difficult to make idiot generalisations about anyone.

I'm not objecting purely on the basis of my fit of pique. Oh, sure, that's how it started, but I simply wouldn't react that strongly to something like that unless the underlying issue mattered to me. I'm pissed off at this whole kind of thinking, and at the idea that there can be a reason for it to be okay. It can't.

It's also not quite as harmless a piece of grouping and stereotyping as it might appear, although it gets rather murky at this point: I raise the issue of a Jewish school, for example, because the school we're talking about was and is sixty plus percent composed of Jewish students. Hampstead and the surrounding area has an ethnic mix which is not the regular London one, and the cant deployed against it (frequently, but not always, by the poitical right) has a deeply uncomfortable resonance to me ("these are rich layabouts and trendy lefties, and many of them are secretly foreign").

I take the point that this gives me a confluence of experience with a chunk of the rest of the world (even if in a small way), but I submit that the value of that is perhaps less than would be the value of banishing that kind of thinking - and that banishing has to begin somewhere, with someone.

Incidentally, I don't wish anyone to feel guilty about being American. I would wish Americans greater access to unbiased reporting, and I would give blood to see greater interest in the world outside the States as an equal or greater entity. But guilt? Waste of time.

Haus: as you see, the 'accusation of Nazism' is less and more than that. I'm not making a comparison, but pointing up a bleaker possibly interpretation, not of Flyboy's rhetoric, but of some of those which inform it.

Incidentally, I thought '3 for 2' was Sound, not you. In which case my initial outburst was misplaced. Fortunately for my fury, we've moved on.

It's impossible to discuss this kind of thing without resorting to biography, of course, though it need not be one's own. That's the whole point - generalisation ignores vast and vital differences. The business of human life is messy, not neat, and categories so arbitrary cannot hope to embrace it. Never mind that this one is a caricature of distinctly dubious provenance.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:01 / 13.03.02
I honestly don't think this is really about personal enmity, Haus (and should I suggest you cross the Atlantic to meet all the North Americans with whom you ever crossed swords, for pizza and a movie?): while Nick and myself have had passionately expressed differences of opinion online (with the occasional toes crossing the line into ad hominen that is pretty much inevitable in such circumstances, on both sides), that hasn't actually happened for a while, and I'd never question the assertion that he's one of the smartest, wittiest and most considerate and thoughtful posters on the board.

The idea that this is *about* Nick personally seemed to be the source of the whole aggravation for him in this thread, and I think it's a complete misreading. (Editted because Nick has since stated otherwise, which is good, but I still want to clear the following up...)

quote:Originally posted by Nick:
You, however, brought in the issue of 'over-privileged' as a description of these guys, and if it fits them and theirs, it must, by definition, also fit me and mine.


In fact it wasn't me who brought in this issue - I was quoting Planet of Sound, who said, specifically about Alex Garland: "And I loathe the lucky, lucky, lucky, good-looking, book-publishing, zeitgeisty Hampstead over-privileged fuck..." Neither of us were referring to you, Nick, and I haven’t done so thus far anywhere in this thread if you re-read what I actually posted.

Still, to move things on a little: I agree that we need to start somewhere when it comes to eliminating prejudiced generalisations. I would argue that the best thing to do would be to start by trying to eliminate prejudiced generalisations against those members of society who suffer most as a result of them.

[ 13-03-2002: Message edited by: Flyboy ]
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
09:01 / 13.03.02
Ah, I wasn't aware that this was the thread that one reacted to without reading...

Any more reascriptions, people? Or shall we skip straight to the affirmations of personal devotion that follow bitching as night does day?

Ah.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:01 / 13.03.02
I have a feeling that Alex Garland lives in Primrose Hill...
 
 
Fra Dolcino
09:01 / 13.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Flyboy:

Still, to move things on a little: I agree that we need to start somewhere when it comes to eliminating prejudiced generalisations. I would argue that the best thing to do would be to start by trying to eliminate prejudiced generalisations against those members of society who suffer most as a result of them.

[ 13-03-2002: Message edited by: Flyboy ]



Great! Can we start with lawyers?
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
09:01 / 13.03.02
quote:Originally posted by The Haus under the Ocean:

And, lest we forget, to be born English is to be already a winner in life's lottery (bonus points for naming *that* reference).


Cecil Rhodes. 3 house points please.
 
  

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