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How do you to save (Captain) America?

  
 
H3ct0r L1m4
03:35 / 06.07.01
Some time ago we were discussing the matter of Captain America's relevancy. Writer Steven Grant had this brilliant article up on the 4th of July. In depth analisys of Captain America as a character and of America as what it really means. Is the myth relevant nowadays?

http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=moto

Thoughts?

[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: Vortex09 ]
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
12:45 / 06.07.01
Did anyone notice the link to the Rob Liefeld column there?

Who would give Rob Liefeld a column NOW? I find it hard to imagine that anyone would want to hear what he has to say unless it was to use against him.

Like for example, check this out:


quote:Nearly a decade ago, talents named McFarlane, Lee, Liefeld, Keown and Portacio were making their artistic voices heard, and as their talents matured and blossomed, they ultimately changed the comic market forever. Voices such as Maduriera, Campbell and Turner followed with a similar, if not as potent, impact.

Wanker!

[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: Clontle ]
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
17:16 / 06.07.01
Who would give Liefeld a column EVER?
Not only he mispelled Madureira's name (I know, not a big deal) but he want us to think he draws better than the others cited.

I guess S. Grant was only political putting that link there.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
22:22 / 06.07.01
I think the most obnoxious thing about that column was that he truly believed that flashy art was far more important than the writing, and that writing had only become a major draw in recent times because there were no 'superstar' artists coming up. He's trapped in the early 90s, poor fella.

Also, him knocking Quitely and Morrison for being a month late with X-Men, and Quesada's poor record with Daredevil is a huge boulder for him to throw, living in the glass mansion he's been in the past decade.
When did Liefeld ever draw a comic that shipped monthly since 91? Or any of his Image cronies save for McFarlane and Larsen? Or Madureira, Campbell, or Turner? Please!
 
 
Mercury
22:22 / 06.07.01
Trying to go a bit back to the topic: you know who would I like to see writing Cap?
Alan Moore. Because 1) If he can't do it, no one can. And 2) he's already doing it. Check ABC. The First American is the biggest sattyre on Cap I have ever seen, and it's the thing all cynical writers would like to do to the Captain. But he's also writing his own vision of future Cap if we look to to Tom Strong. I mean, take away the science bit, add a bit more symbolism, and the guy's Captain America (he even fought nazis)
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
12:07 / 07.07.01
I agree, that makes a lot of sense. But do you think that if Marvel approached him, he would consider doing it?

Come to think of it, has Moore EVER worked for Marvel Comics?
 
 
Sandfarmer
12:39 / 07.07.01
Hey guys. I've not been here in forever.

I did not read the articles but I have actually been thinking about this for a while. I've ween working on a comic myself in which WWII plays a part in the backstory and it led me to thinking about Cap.

If I were writing the fucker, I'd strip him to the bones of what Steve Rogers really is. He's a man out of time. A WWII vet who should be in his 70's or 80's but still has the body of an olympic athlete. I'd explore his youth and have the modern Cap interact more with people of his true generation. Surely there are vets that he fought with still alive. Maybe even an old flame from the war years who is in the twilight of her life. These are things that would have a powerful effect on a character. Lets see Cap come to grips with the fact that his generation is almost gone yet he still lives to help play a part in the new mellinium.

Oh, and I'd totally ignore Cap as a patriotic icon. Do you really think a man would wake up each day and think, "I'm the American flag. I AM America." I think he's just a regular guy given a gift who has taken on the duty that gift deserves. I think he feels responsible to do his best for his Country and the world but I just don't see him a bigger than life super confident Superman character. I'd take him back to the sickly kid who wanted to serve his country.
 
 
Ellis
13:11 / 07.07.01
Has any writer ever written Captain America in a real epic "Dark Knight Returns"/ "Kingdom Come" style story?


Same with Spiderman, and all Marvel heroes really, none of them have been written in a truely epic larger than life way. Marvel characters are more likely to be the everyman than the ultimate.

<yes i know Rob Liefield wrote Captain America as The Dark Knight Returns, but that was total shit>
 
 
The Puck
22:24 / 07.07.01
id like to see captain Amrica in a series where he slowly loses it and starts to attack anything that he sees as "unamrican" if we assume that he still has the belif system that he had before he was froze he could wig out and start attacking any thing from "homosexuals" to "commies"

ps im quite drunk heeheheheh
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
01:54 / 08.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Puck:
id like to see captain Amrica in a series where he slowly loses it and starts to attack anything that he sees as "unamrican" if we assume that he still has the belif system that he had before he was froze he could wig out and start attacking any thing from "homosexuals" to "commies"

ps im quite drunk heeheheheh

Steve Englehart already did it. The 50's Cap turned out to be an anti-commie whack job who went round the bend and had to be taken out by The Real Cap.

If I were given Captain America, the first thing I would do is forget that he's an American Icon. I woudl throw him balls deep in pure action stories where he bounces around like Jet Li for the first six issues, with derring do and the like. Let's face it, every time someone tries to make him out to be a Big American Deal, it's not all the fun to read. Cap's best attribute as a character is that he's NOT got a ton of powers, just a little stregth boost and has trained himself to peak perfection (reader indetification and wish fulfillment for the YA audience) . Mark Waid said that Cap's super power is that he can't everbe defeated. Not that he doesn't LOSE, but that he always finds a way, and a good writer gets the reader to try and figure that out as well.

Jack Kirby did it best, just throw Cap against the most whacked out villains you can think of and use it as a action picture that people would go "Holy shit" when they read it.

Then, when you need some character stuff, think of how fascinating it would be to explore his feelings on not only being out of his own time, but that the people he considers his peers are all dying of old age...

But all this stuff about making him an icon...piffle that. Make him a fun comic for 12 year olds to read. We need those.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
18:11 / 08.07.01
Frank Miller wrote a great Captain America in 'Daredevil: Born Again' - a man out of time indeed, slowly getting more and more pissed off as he realises how corrupt the military are and fights Nuke... Has the great exchange where Daredevil asks him why he wants to get involved:

Cap: "He wears the flag."

DD: "I hadn't noticed."
 
 
Hush
05:00 / 10.07.01
When I first heard GM was going to Marvel the thing I most wanted was the structured and definitive extinction of Captain America.

The character is beyond reform, redemption or 'rebooting'

Go Grant Go!
 
 
fukphace
05:59 / 10.07.01
Personaly, I'd like for Cap to be more of a fun read. There are enough grit and gore comics out there. We need more Allreds and Larsens. Doing fun wacky super-hero stuff.
 
 
grant
18:02 / 10.07.01
Sandman: that's an *excellent* take on the character, and one I'd never thought of.

Luke Wing: how the heck have you been?
 
 
Tom Coates
20:14 / 10.07.01
I think it is time for Captain America to go back to being exactly what he's supposed to be - the symbolic representative of a symbolic country. The country hasn't quite lived up to its aspirations, but that doesn't mean that the hero shouldn't. Plots should be consistently based in the US to stop it looking like crass colonialism. It should not be pushed as a gritty series, because he'll never be believable in that sense - he's too one dimensional as an individual. Instead this is a person who knows what America stands for possibly better than America does itself. He is a standard for that country. In fact, I'd be really interested in a plot where he stood for office. Captain America for president...

Basically, what you're looking at is a man for a country to rally around - a representative of all that is good in the American Dream, tempered with a certain degree of liberalism. A superhero that really does represent the best interests of a world - who can make a speech about how the dream of America is a dream that has resonated around the world - like a fictional Utopia - and that this guy's MISSION is to bring focus to everyone's attempts to make that Utopia reality.

I'd probably attempt it in a fairly long two year plot arc of regeneration. I'd have a Cap who looks around America and feels jaded and uncomfortable with it. Decides to see the world mostly incognito, experiences the best and worst of a world and then returns to America with renewed focus - that the dream of the US is something worth aspiring too and that it is something worth fighting for, and that it is his job to remind people about what it is to be a citizen of America, what it is to be free, what it is to believe in equality etc. And after a declaration of belief in what should make a country great, I'd have him declare his intention to run for the presidency on an EXPLICITLY STATED POLITICAL AGENDA of cultural openness, ethical foreign policy and centre politics. I'd have him win the race and then immediately resign, having made his point that if you appeal to the best instincts in people, if you represent them as well as you can, and if you believe in the preservation of freedom, in education and personal development and look to the future then you can't go far wrong. With this mandate, you'd have a lot of space to take him forward. I would steer the title away from super-villains and towards corruption and crime-syndicates, but I would make sure that the morality was relatively clear - that you can't always do the right thing, but you can always TRY to do the right thing, and that that's mostly good enough...
 
 
Sandfarmer
20:38 / 10.07.01
Interesting ideas Tom. I assume that if Cap were to become a political figure, he would have to lose the secret-identity thing and reaveal his true history. I really don't think there is any reason for Cap to have a secret identity at this point anyway. He should reveal it. The personal life of Steve Rogers has never been anything special (well, back in the 70's it was written pretty well) He should go public. The war vet angle always draws votes. He'd be seen as John McCain with almost super strenght and a kick ass sheild. Who would have the balls to run against him?
 
 
the Fool
00:32 / 11.07.01
I think something offered up in Universe X might add to Cap.

Cap is not the realisation of the american dream. He is in fact the realisation of the Nazi superman ideal. Blonde, Blue eyed, the perfect physical specimen. The American Super-soldier program just an offshoot of the nazi version. If not for pearl harbour Cap would have fought against the allies.

The 'american ideal' he is meant to symbolise is in fact just an extension of fascist propoganda and aggression.

Hollow out what we call the 'American dream', what we think it is, what it has been and what it could become. Maybe the 'dream' isn't 'American' anymore.
 
 
Tom Coates
07:07 / 11.07.01
That's definitely true, of course -superman was as well, in fact all super heroes derive ultimately from that early 20th century obsession with perfecting the human body through eugenics and the like. But there's not a lot of scope in making a character an archetype for Nazism - and actually there might be some space opening up again for discussions of individual self-perfection again...
 
 
grant
13:24 / 11.07.01
Tom, you're a genius.
I would actually want to read that book.
Especially if you combine it with that world-weary, eternally-young thing Sandman mentioned as basic to the character. Cuz I think that says a lot about America. Older than it looks or acts. Maybe more tired than it's willing to let on.
 
 
moriarty
04:02 / 12.07.01
Captain America wrestling with the stigma of being a living Symbol. Depowered Cap. Fast paced action. Fun read. Cap and politics.

All this and more were touched on in Waid's two runs on Captain America. And I know Waid gets a real bad rap around these parts, but his and Garney's work on Cap was one of the great pleasures I have had in reading comics in the last five years. The storytelling was crisp, simple, iconic, and effective. This Cap was everything America is supposed to be, despite itself. My freinds scoffed that I would read something as imperialistic and filthy as Cap, but damn, Waid's Cap almost made me believe the American Dream wasn't a sham. As good as propaganda can get.

Captain America/Nazism. OK, I'll try to stay calm. I have to say, I was in self-imposed exile from posting on message boards for awhile, but this one brought me back into the fold. First off, Cap jumped into the War before America did. Captain America #1 appeared on newstands in March of 1941. Pearl Harbour was attacked that December. Steve Rogers took the super-soldier serum after watching newsreels about Nazi Atrocities. I'll admit, having the US conduct experiments on Rogers is creepy, and the blond hair doesn't help, but Steve himself would never have fought against the Aliies. Cap's appearance seems to me to be more a reaction against the look of Superman (dark hair/blond hair) than any kind of statement about the Master Race, a lesson Fawcett should have learned early on with Captain Marvel. I just think Cap, and yes, superheroes in general, were the result of an overall drive for physical "perfection" that we still experience today, and which shows no real national origin.

All that said, I'd like to know what happened in Earth X to suggest this theory.

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: moriarty ]
 
 
the Fool
05:24 / 12.07.01
I wasn't suggesting Cap become a Nazi, rather undermine his orgin story with the implication that it is true. That he is Red Skulls 'son', that everything he believed to be noble was actually corrupt. And he is the end result of the nazi dream, despite fighting against the shadow of the shawstika all his life.

I'm thinking x-filesesque nazi conspiracy in the american government trying to turn Cap into everything he despises, and everything the dark forces of the underside of the american dream hope for.

Can he rise above the purpose he was actually designed for?
 
 
e-n
07:23 / 12.07.01
Tom
<sniff>
that's beautiful man.
 
 
moriarty
11:15 / 12.07.01
Fool - Gotcha.
 
 
Sandfarmer
09:41 / 17.07.01
quote: Cuz I think that says a lot about America. Older than it looks or acts. Maybe more tired than it's willing to let on.

Perfect!
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
09:41 / 17.07.01
Christ. Is there anyway we can get Tom Coates (with some consultation by a few of the folks in this thread) a job writing Captain America? I'd love to read these comics you're all suggesting.
 
 
Jamieon
09:41 / 17.07.01
Apart from Tom's, a lot of the ideas above feel a bit dated - a bit "eighties". I've had enough of fascist superheroes and the "dark underbelly of the american dream". Deconstructed superheroes were great in their day, but we're post Flex Mentallo now kids.....

As Tom says,

quote: there might be some space opening up again for discussions of individual self-perfection again...

We can go beyond the superhero as metaphor for the sex/death urge and set the teleporter for the Legion of Legions.
 
 
Tom Coates
09:41 / 17.07.01
I suppose, in a sense, it would be like Marvel Boy only for a more conventional morality and with less foul attitude. i think it could work really well. I'd want that bloody A off his hat though. And I'd want to play him like an adult. Frankly, superheroics is almost beneath him in a way...
 
 
Sandfarmer
22:43 / 17.07.01
Yes. Cap is still Cap without the costume. Its really kind of silly that he even wears the costume since he does not work for the government anymore. (At least I don't think he does. I've not read a CA comic in a while.) I mean Marvel is never going to take him out of the suit for an extened period of time in current continuity but it might make a nice post-modern-pre-Universe X mini series.
 
 
Sandfarmer
22:45 / 17.07.01
quote:Christ. Is there anyway we can get Tom Coates (with some consultation by a few of the folks in this thread) a job writing Captain America? I'd love to read these comics you're all suggesting.

Just for kicks, I could forward this thread to Joe Q.
 
 
Dharma Bum
23:03 / 17.07.01
Personally, having just finished reading "The Great Shark Hunt: The Gonzo Papers, pt. 1", I would dearly love to see Captain America as written by Hunter S. Thompson.

Fuck straightforward action plots-- Cap SHOULD be intensely political. It should be about the gap between the American Dream and the American Reality.

It should be about the savage reptilian politicians who whored their way into power, and who run the country with total disregard for the needs of its citizens.

It should be about Cap trying to decide where his loyalties lie-- the American Government? The American People? The Generic Good Guys in general?

I would love to see Cap traveling around the globe trying desperately to come to grips with the fact that for the vast majority of the Earth, "America" is a symbol of jackbooted capitalist pigs who are a symbol of the oppression-- that in many places we stand or have stood for everything Cap claims to stand against.

Where would Cap stand on globalization? Is he a pure-free-market fuck-the-poor Ayn Randian, or is he a bleeding-heart liberal?

Yeah.
That and some big robots and car chases ought to do it.
 
 
moriarty
23:07 / 17.07.01
There was one storyline awhile back where the Government called on Cap to submit to their decisions or resign. The speech they made went along the lines of "You are not Captain Avengers. You are not Captain SHIELD. You are not Captain Solo. We gave you the shield, costume and name. They belong to us. You have 24 hours to make a decision. Follow our orders, to the letter, without question, or resign."

He resigned, of course.

I'd like to point out that every idea put forth so far has already been tried in Captain America. No, really. You probably haven't noticed because Cap usually flies under the radar of most people.

And, no, I'm not trying to burst any bubbles. Cap is big enough for many different takes.
 
 
bio k9
00:43 / 18.07.01
Guns. He needs guns. Needs them like a gay man needs dick. This is America god damnit.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:45 / 18.07.01
A rumour recently surfaced that when Captain America is relaunched under the Marvel Knights banner, John Cassady of Planetary fame will be handling the art chores. Warren Ellis pretty much confirmed it on his forum. I wonder who'll be writing it...
 
 
Sandfarmer
19:47 / 19.07.01
FYI I forwarded this thread to Joe Quesada. He said...

quote:Thanks for the kind words!
JQ

He's a busy guy.
 
 
Templar
19:49 / 19.07.01
He discovers that his parents were... Russian. This causes such intense anguish, that he splits into two personalities: red Captain America, the commy scum, and Blue Captain America, the fine upstanding hero. They then battle each other into the ground.
 
  
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