BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


anybody here mainstream-phobic?

 
 
Ria
12:37 / 21.06.01
I noticed all the mention of superhero comics in the "Lost Comics" thread and so it raised the question.

please let's not go into questioning the definition of 'mainstream' though. I don't know either.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
14:07 / 21.06.01
quote:Originally posted by Kriztalyne:
I noticed all the mention of superhero comics in the "Lost Comics" thread and so it raised the question.

please let's not go into questioning the definition of 'mainstream' though. I don't know either.



Doesn't 'mainstream' in comics just imply that it's a superhero comic? Sure, there's some things that are cool and weird in the genre, but in the context of the western comics industry, mainstream and superheroes are synonymous, yes?

I'm not really mainstream-phobic, because that's where I come from, but I'm becoming increasingly disinterested by them every year. Were it not for some of my favorite comic writers doing superhero work (Morrison, Millar, Ennis (well, not anymore), Milligan), I really doubt anything I currently purchase would be of that genre.

Which makes me think about something that I read yesterday in Warren Ellis' book compiling his Come In Alone columns (highly recommended, by the way)...he was talking about feeling very strange that all the like-minded writers he is friends with are suddenly going back on all of these revolutionary ideas that they all shared and doing mainstream big-name superhero comics, in hopes that it would get people excited about comics again... And I find myself agreeing with him, in that I think a lot of people would rather embrace those writers doing their own work rather than work-for-hire, and that their gamble is likely to not work out in the way they want...I don't think all that many people from outside comics will read New X-Men, but it's a great thing for those in the industry, but those are ever-dwindling numbers...it's all very short-sighted.
 
 
sleazenation
14:08 / 21.06.01
I don't think anyone here is mainsteam phobic as much as they are undestandably unwilling to part with cash for poorly written and some times poorly rendered comics irresective of genre.

well-executed, interesting superhero comics garner a readership, dull comics do not.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
14:10 / 21.06.01
quote:Originally posted by sleazenation:

well-executed, interesting superhero comics garner a readership, dull comics do not.


Oh, that's never been true, and you know it.
 
 
sleazenation
14:16 / 21.06.01
Its becomming more true everyday as the comic market shrinks so does its tollerance for poor comics.

Or maybe its just us- the chin-stroking comics elite who aren't affraid to try comics irrespective of genre.
 
 
Jamieon
14:16 / 21.06.01


[ 21-06-2001: Message edited by: Jamieon ]
 
 
moriarty
14:17 / 21.06.01


[ 21-06-2001: Message edited by: moriarty ]
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
14:23 / 21.06.01
quote:Originally posted by sleazenation:
Its becomming more true everyday as the comic market shrinks so does its tollerance for poor comics.

Or maybe its just us- the chin-stroking comics elite who aren't affraid to try comics irrespective of genre.



That's true, but it's a recent development, and a lot of the reason why is that the kids are all leaving, and all that's left is the "Fatbeards" and the nerds like us.

Sorry if I came off a bit strong just before...
 
 
Chubby P
14:28 / 25.06.01
I think mainstream comics are a bit like hollywood blockbusters. Sometimes you just want a no brainer to relax to instead of having a deep read that'll expand your knowledge and make you think. After reading From Hell I hit some X-Men back issues just to relax. Its like after I've spent a period watching a load of films like American Beauty, Fight Club, Das Boot, etc I'll then reach for an Arnie flick just to chill out to.

Independents are great but personnally I need a balance them with some main stream stuff.

So, the longwinded point is, no manstream-phobia here.

And another thing. I really hate badly executed mainstream comics! At least Marvel appear to be making moves in the right direction.
 
 
Ria
19:04 / 26.06.01
quote:
Or maybe its just us- the chin-stroking comics elite who aren't affraid to try comics irrespective of genre.


"irrespective of genre"? it would/does take a lot for me to take a leap to the traditional superhero category and more, perhaps, to keep on buying it.
 
 
adamswish
20:07 / 26.06.01
don't know if i'm a mainstream-phobic but have noticed I rarely buy into an ongoing series.
The majority of titles I've brought over the last few years have been short-term series (the word for these escape me at the moment).
Sometime this is not on purpose when titles like "Sandman", "Transmetropolitan" and even "the invisibles" turn into extended limited series (ah yes thats the term I was looking for)
This doesn't make me a mainstream-phobic as one of the titles was "Earth-X" (Although I didn't buy "Universe-X").
In fact "new x-men" is the first time in a long while I've dropped into an on-going title.
DOn't know what it is about getting into on-going titles but i seem to prefer some limited series instead.

[ 26-06-2001: Message edited by: adamswish ]
 
 
Chubby P
08:04 / 27.06.01
quote:Originally posted by adamswish:
DOn't know what it is about getting into on-going titles but i seem to prefer some limited series instead.


Could it be because with a limited series (or extended limited series) the story has a beginning, middle, and end? Unlike an ongoing where things are never resolved and even if they are they're probably be retconned in a few years anyway. Thats what I find anyway.
 
 
moriarty
11:33 / 27.06.01
The thing I like about limited series is that in most cases the writing and art chores will be handled by the same team throughout. And even in the event that there is a rotating art crew, usually there is some thought involved as to delegating specific story arcs to specific creators. Makes for a smoother ride, overall.
 
 
mondo a-go-go
19:30 / 27.06.01
MINI-COMICS!!!!!

that's where i'm at right now. small things you can do yerself and stick in an envelope to send to someone.

YAY MINI-COMICS!!!
 
 
Traz
05:29 / 28.06.01
Yes, one of the major reasons that mainstream comics are so unreadable is because they aren't conceived as finite stories with a limited number of story arcs. One of the prerequisites for a truly good tale is a solid, evocative ending. Comic book companies despise endings; their executives prefer titles that will go on generating revenue forever, not reach a tidy resolution after twelve issues. Thus, writers are forced to choose a means of attack when faced with an open-ended series.

Option number one is the static hero. The caped crusader repeats the same adventure over and over--Batman beats Joker, Batman sends Joker to Arkham, Joker escapes--without ever becoming any wiser. This was the preferred method for much of comic history.

Option number two is the dynamic hero. After each battle, the good guy changes just slightly: he learns from each encounter, gains new allies to call upon, changes his costume, picks up a new weapon, discovers a new café that serves great cherry cheesecake or whatever. The problem with this is that new readers have to acquaint themselves with all of the conflicts that have been fought in the past five or ten years to completely understand what's going on in the present. That's why The X-Men comic didn't sell, even after the movie came out: only the die-hards fan-boys who had been there all along would know what was going on when Cyclops or Wolverine made some passing reference to his daughter. To everyone else, it was gibberish, a colossal in-joke at their expense.

Even relatively uncomplicated comics like Strangers in Paradise tend to drag after forty issues. On Terry Moore's website, his fans are growing restless; they're sick of being jerked around and tired of waiting for Francine and Katchoo to stop agonizing and become a couple. They crave resolution. They crave a good ending.

This, then, is the future of comics: the mini-series. Titles that go on forever are either too simplistic or ridiculously complex. Take a look at your favorite comics; I think that you'll find that most of them are either self-contained (Watchmen, Marshal Law) or a finite section of an otherwise unremarkable title (Miller's run on Daredevil, Morrison's work on Doom Patrol). There are exceptions to this, of course (Cerebus springs to mind), but if the brain trust behind the comics industry actually wanted to capture the adult market, the mini-series would be their best bet.
 
 
adamswish
13:13 / 28.06.01
quote:Originally posted by Flunitrazepam:
There are exceptions to this, of course (Cerebus springs to mind), but if the brain trust behind the comics industry actually wanted to capture the adult market, the mini-series would be their best bet.


But wasn't Cerebus the first title that said it had a finite limit from the start. And (excuse me, not a reader of this title but heard a lot and seen it about in the shops) its whole structure seems to be designed with collected trade paperbacks in mind.
Which are a mainstay of the limited series aren't they.
 
 
The Knowledge
14:39 / 28.06.01
quote: Could it be because with a limited series (or extended limited series) the story has a beginning, middle, and end? Unlike an ongoing where things are never resolved and even if they are they're probably be retconned in a few years anyway. Thats what I find anyway.

Yes, but more and more writers involved with mainstream projects are having the good sense to make the title their own for the duration of their run, and tell a stand alone story. Anything by Ellis, Morrison or Millar reads like this. You don't have to give a toss about the writers that came before or after Morrison's stint on 'JLA' to enjoy his work on the title.

I think a lot of the prejudice towards the mainstream hangs upon the notion of "high" and "low" art, and refuses to accept the fact that any form can be hijacked to further the individual writer's ends.

I don't think 'Murder Me Dead', whilst very good, is "deeper" than 'Marvel Boy'.

I do accept, however, that most mainstream writers are shit.

I'm not even a big fan of Ellis.
 
 
Axel Lambert
12:03 / 29.06.01
quote:Originally posted by Benny:

Yes, but more and more writers involved with mainstream projects are having the good sense to make the title their own for the duration of their run, and tell a stand alone story. Anything by Ellis, Morrison or Millar reads like this.


Erhem. Surely, this has to do with the fact that some of their comics were started with them at the wheel from issue 1, no? For instance, to understand Millar's SWAMP THING, you'd have to have read at least Alan Moore's issues. To fully enjoy his Authority, you'd have to know Ellis' one. But you're right in the case of DOOM PATROL. I have never read issues 1-17 (or whatever) and I don't think I've missed that much. [/LIST]
 
 
The Knowledge
16:36 / 29.06.01
Thinking about it you're probably right, but, that's great, go out and read their stuff! The point I was making was in reference to people complaining about continuity; and, as we've just established, continuity, for these writers at least, doesn't seem to be a problem - so the mainstream naysayers are forced to strike off one more excuse.

In the case of most mainstream books, it's not the form, but the writing that's at fault.
 
 
mario94606
18:20 / 20.10.04
someone reccomended 100 BULLETS, AND ITS A GREAT BOOK TO READ. if you like it read it, recommend it to someone. word of mouth helps the sales. YOU LIKE THE WRITERS WORK THIS HEPLS HIM CONTINUE WRITING FOR THIS BOOK INSTEAD OF LEAVIN IT FOR A BOOK HE DOSE'NT PUT HIS HEART INTO BUT GETS A TON OF CASH FOR. LIKE INDEPENDANT LABELS THAT NEED TO SHOW SALES TO HAVE THE NEXT ISSUE COME OUT OR GET AXED FOR LOW SALES.

TELL SOMEONE YOU LIKE WHAT GOING ON IN. LET SOME ONE KNOW WHATS ON YOU MIND. IT CANT HURT.
 
 
sleazenation
19:06 / 20.10.04
Um... Mario if you have a dig round I'm sure you'll find a fair few 100 Bullets threads, but I sincerely doubt you'll do much to convince people to try a comic if your recommendation is typed in caps...
 
 
Catjerome
20:12 / 20.10.04
I find that I drift away from mainstream comics mainly because the constant advertising is so annoying! Page of comic, acne ad, page of comic, goofy video game ad, page of comic, ad for Marvel toothbrushes. It breaks up the mood and distracts me from the artwork, and it makes me one of the trade-waiters, if I'm even that invested in the story. I can't think of any indy comics with that kind of advertising peppered throughout the book, so that's definitely a plus for them - a more consistent reading experience.

Also - another yay for minicomics! Anna, let me know if you want to swap minis!
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
06:20 / 21.10.04
I tend to buy far more "alternative" comics than mainstream, though admittedly some of those "alternatives" are still superheroic in genre. A stroll through some of my more recent non-mainstream acquisitions includes:

66K MILES PER HOUR (scifi adventure/teen dramedy)
ARMAGEDDON PATROL (superpowered Vietnam soldiers)
BAD IDEAS (small press fellas jamming)
BEAR (it's like JTHM, but cute)
BLOKHEDZ (urban drama)
COLONIA (alternate history of the Americas)
THE CHASE (crime drama)
DEEP SLEEPER (philosophical & metaphysical)
DR. BLINK, SUPERHERO SHRINK (genre spoof)
FINDER (defies description, best small press book, hands down)
HSU & CHAN (bizarre and gut-busting)
JOHNNY RAYGUN (superhero)
NYC MECH (urban drama)
PIRATE CLUB (fuck if I know)
STREET ANGEL (surreal action comedy)
STYX TAXI (meaning of life-type fare)
TRUE STORY, SWEAR TO GOD (autobiographical romance)
A UNITED FRONT (varied anthology)

I also buy a good number of minis (especially on weeks when I'm running low on funds but need a fix), including (just sampling from my "to file" pile) THE MIGHTY SKULLBOY ARMY, LATE NIGHT BLOCK, BIG BAMBUDDA, THE PAIN WHEN WILL IT END, FOXYMORON, SKYSCRAPERS OF THE MIDWEST, PAPING and GO-GO GIRL, none of which I think could be confused with anything mainstream.

So I'm not exactly shy of non-mainstream; you'd be harder pressed to get me to talk about whatever the hell is happening in SUPERMAN or AVENGERS.

/+,
 
 
superdonkey
08:58 / 21.10.04
MINI-COMICS!!!!!

that's where i'm at right now. small things you can do yerself and stick in an envelope to send to someone.

YAY MINI-COMICS!!!


yay mini-comics indeed. if anyone's interested in mini-comics, there are a few good sites to find them at, but this is the one i favor: Usscatastrophe.

(i'm not actually afilliated with any of these sites, fyi)

mini comics are a very diplomatic medium and can be really fun to read, hold, and toss around the room.
 
 
Almost Normal
21:21 / 26.10.04
Hey here are a bunch of comics way outside the mainstream (hope I got that link thing right):The Comics

And, just to plug my own non-mainstream comic, there’s this too: My Comic

Hope you see something you like,
WEE
 
  
Add Your Reply