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THE ILIAD (Book Club)

 
  

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Kit-Cat Club
07:06 / 04.02.02
... or, HOLY SHIT.

Time to start this thread and distil some of the excitement that's been in the air about this, I think.

I have to say how enthralled and moved I was by this book. I actually cried at the end, & I haven't done that over a book for years. It really ... swept me along, for want of a better phrase. So, lots to say, but I'm just going to outline a few things we could chat about to get us going.

1) Achilleus is a spoilt brat. Grrr. And Agamemnon... give me strength...

2) Relationship between the Gods and the humans, and how partisan the Gods are; and also, how they play with the lives of humans.

3) Relationships among the Achaians, and also between the Achaians and some of the Trojans

4) Language (insofar as possible)

That should do as a start, but don't feel obliged to talk about those if you have something to say... I feel I should really go and read it again (feeble excuse!).
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
08:24 / 04.02.02
The capriciousness of the gods. I guess it's a pretty hackneyed idea now, but reading The Iliad, I was amazed at how clearly this idea comes across. The characters worship the gods, and trust in them to look after them - but they're unaware of the fact that up on Olympus, as long as they stay out of Zeus' way, the gods are pissing about with the mortals' lives - almost like some kind of interactive Big Brother show. I guess that's what made a big impact on me; I'd often heard the old saw about humans being the gods' playthings - but here, it's shown in action. And they just don't give a fuck - unless it's one of their offspring that's involved.

Also; I found it was the small moments of humanity that made the fate of characters like Hektor much more tragic when they finally occur. All the way through, Hektor is described as a fearsome warrior, all muscles and spearing - but when he's with his wife and child, he removes his helmet - something that's key to his identity as a warrior - because it's frightening the baby. That's amazing; it's a break from the portrait of the complete war machine, and one that I think is essential in the creation of the sadness I felt when he was killed.

So: the gods came across - to me - as pissants with superpowers; obnoxious in the way that Paris is, I guess. Whereas many of the mortals seemed more noble than the gods, in a way. The gods are meant to be the caretakers of these deferential humans - but they use them like GI Joe toys, instead. It's surprising, I guess - but puts the focus squarely on the human aspect of the battle.

Anyone else get that?

(I don't have my copy with me here at work, but will dig out some references later, I spose.)
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:50 / 04.02.02
Oh yes, exactly - and the way the gods get hurt, get annoyed, take part, feud and so on - but to them, it's a day, while to the humans, it's a lifetime... their involvement is superficial and they seem almost superficial as well: it's mortality that lends real weight and meaning to existence.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
11:00 / 04.02.02
The thing that struck me about the way the Gods interfere in the battle is, that they can only do so insofar as Fate permits them. If a character such as Achilles is doomed by Fate to die, then the Gods can do nothing.

Given the fact that the Olympian is a relatively primitive form of worship (okay, it is advanced in some ways), it would seem to me that the religious beliefs of the Greeks would retain some features of even older religious, and have the Gods be the cause of Fate, rather than be subject and bound by Fate themselves. So, what is Fate in the Iliad, and how does it relate to the Gods? Is Fate "character" as the Athenian dramatists might have known it?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:11 / 04.02.02
I dunno... I think it might be in some way; isn't there a point where Achilleus says that he could either have stayed in Phthia and died old, or come to Troy with Agamenon and fought, and died young? So his fate is based on his personal choice, which would be governed to some extent by his character. But I think that also has to do with the idea of 'honour'.

There are several references (IIRC), albeit oblique, to fate or the Fates - the spinners, who would seem to have a function similar to that of the Norns. We really need a Greek expert to sort this one, though. Haus?
 
 
Ierne
11:30 / 04.02.02
It was fascinating how the warfare was layered (human vs. human; deity vs. deity; deity vs. human). It was sort of like a multi-level chess game (not that I'm a chess expert, mind you!), with Zeus playing against himself. He manipulates the gods in order to manipulate the human leaders who manipulate their soldiers...He completely controls the game.

Todd mentions Fate, and while I wouldn't completely disagree with him I would state that the gods obey Zeus, and it is Zeus who takes Fate into consideration.

(The fates, or Moirai, were indeed very similar to the Scandinavian Norns. They spun, wove and cut the threads of life. Being far older than the Olympians, and having the power of life and death, it was in Zeus' interests not to disregard them.)

[ 04-02-2002: Message edited by: Ierne ]
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
11:40 / 04.02.02
Don't have a copy handy, but to the best of my imperfect memory:

First up, there is no simple answer to Todd's question, because the Iliad is *nbever* that simple. But no, I don't think Fate is personified in the way that Sleep, Death, Madness and other entities are, in the Iliad or on the Greek stage.

The function of Fate in the Iliad is a complex beast. First up, everybody has an individual fate, which is expressed particularly through Achilles, who becomes divine and deceased through pretty much the same process of meshing with his understanding of his fate =- the closer to killing Hector he gets, the more details are revealed about the manner of his own death. And, at the same time, all fo these individual fates are woven together into a single narrative (Helen's tapestry is quite interesting here - Helen, like Achilles, is in some ways less human than those around her especially as later I believe she says that fate has cursed herself and Hector to be aidimoi essomenoisi - worthy topics of song for future generations. It might not be entirely unhelpful to think of "Fate" as being the process of narrative).

I'm afraid my anthropology is clearly not good enough to follow it would seem to me that the religious beliefs of the Greeks would retain some features of even older religious, and have the Gods be the cause of Fate, rather than be subject and bound by Fate themselves. In fact, I'm pretty bewildered by the idea of a "primitive" form of worship. Primitive as opposed to....episcopalianism?

I'd suggest that the question you raise can probably be tackled a number of ways. But to look at Fate and the gods within the context of the Iliad...

Well, on one hand, the Gods move along the workings of fate, or at least fail to retard them. The gods get involved at various points on both sides, but cannot sway the course of battle to the point that the fate of Troy can be altered. Likewise, on a personal level, Aphrodite can save Aeneas because it is not his time. Zeus saves Sarpedon once, but does not again, because his fate is upon him.

However, Achilles has, or seems to have, a degree of mastery over his fate. He can choose to fight and die or to stay at home and live, although one could say with some justice that this is not in fact a choice at all if you are Achilles (and KKC - we may come back to this on the spoiled brat question).

And, as Achilles is below, Zeus is above. Zeus does not take part in the fighting, either between the gods or among the humans. And yet he does suggest that he is by far the stronger of the gods, and could in fact outpower all of the others put together. Just as relevantly, he wonders twice whether to deny the dictates of fate, once to save Troy and once to rescue Sarpedon. The first time he is joking, but the second he appears seriosuly to be entertaining the thought, thus implying that he alone has the power to go against the dictates of "fate". Both times Here tells him that he can do it if he wants, but the other gods will not *approve*.

In fact, there is an argument that "fate" is a shorthand for the manifest will of Zeus, and so in effect when he ponders goign against it he is entertaining a sudden whim that goes against his long-term plan. So, is it that he *can* do nothing , or that he *will* do nothing, and can by sheer power compel obedience in the other gods as well?
 
 
Persephone
11:43 / 04.02.02
Hello hello all, I woke up this morning thinking The Iliad starts today! Was all I could do not to push Husband out of the house with his lunch and his briefcase, except that he doesn't carry a briefcase...

About the gods... I think a way to think about them is not so much that they're not human, but that they're not-human. So "capricious" may not apply to the gods. I think in a way the gods themselves are limited by the way they're made. For example, they're immortal... can you imagine how that one change in your life you change you totally? They don't eat food! It reminded me of the angels in Wings of Desire or, fatuously enough, Data in Star Trek Next Generation. And it made me think how such supernatural creatures are always appearing in literature, in the case of Homer practically since the beginning of written language; and how they serve to throw into relief what it is to be human.

And about fate... my reading is not about determinism vs. free will, but about determinism *and* free will in the same space and how that's such a logical contradiction, if not an impossibility... and yet there it is.

----------------------------------------
"So they spoke to each other, and they jumped down from their chariots, and took each other's hand and pledged their friendship. Then Zeus son of Kronos took Glaukos' wits away from him: he exchanged with Diomedes son of Tydeus gold armour for bronze, a hundred oxen's worth for nine."
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
11:48 / 04.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Kit-Cat Club:
I dunno... I think it might be in some way; isn't there a point where Achilleus says that he could either have stayed in Phthia and died old, or come to Troy with Agamenon and fought, and died young?


Yes, in Book 9, talking to Phoenix. His mother alludes to the prophesy when she first appears, and warns him later that if he kills Hector he has sealed his fate and will die himself. His death is prophesied twice more - by his horse (very weird - this kind of thing doesn't happen in the Iliad) and by Hector himself, who goes so far as to name the agents and location of his death.

On the Moirai - Fate is referred to as a spinner a couple fo times in the Iliad, I think, but I feel it is a metaphor based ont he idea of the Moirai rather than a direct reference to them. Especially as this kind of Fate describes not the Fate of Troy or the Fate of the World, but the Fate of individuals, where Fate means the time and nature of their death.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:51 / 04.02.02
So - might one say that, if fate can be seen as narrative, Zeus is in effect the narrator of the 'story'?

(Er, yes, maybe 'spoiled brat' was not the best way to put it... but you know what I mean, I think).
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
11:55 / 04.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Persephone:
And about fate... my reading is not about determinism vs. free will, but about determinism *and* free will in the same space and how that's such a logical contradiction, if not an impossibility... and yet there it is.

----------------------------------------
"So they spoke to each other, and they jumped down from their chariots, and took each other's hand and pledged their friendship. Then Zeus son of Kronos took Glaukos' wits away from him: he exchanged with Diomedes son of Tydeus gold armour for bronze, a hundred oxen's worth for nine."


Well, yeah. I think the culture we're lookign at had far fewer problems wiuth the idea of that coexistence. In fact, I'm not entirely sure that a Homeric hero, or even a contemporary of "Homer", would very easily be able to understand our conception of free will at all.

What Persephone describes above is dual motivation, which happens throughout the book - gods fortify resolves, or (more commonly) plant false ideas or delusions, and this in no way makes the human unaccountable - Agamemnon comes across as spineless and pusillanimous when he tries to *blame* his behaviour on Ate (madness, deceit), rather than acknowledging its role and his responsibility.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
13:01 / 04.02.02


[ 04-02-2002: Message edited by: He said he had a horrible Haus ]
 
 
Persephone
13:08 / 04.02.02
That bit about Glaukos losing his wits is my utter favorite. If Barbelith had sigs and if I didn't hate sigs myself, I would be annoying everyone with that appendix hanging out everywhere.

Did anyone read that essay that Todd linked to in the Notes and Queries thread? Homer's Contest, by Nietzsche? The question it raised for me, and raised again by Haus above, is how different are we from the Greeks? In the Nietzsche essay, it talks about how the Greeks accepted that man is all entwined with nature and not Wordsworthian nature, either --not as we think now, being the implication. But what do we think about man and nature now that it's been a hundred years since Nietzsche? Because I *responded* to all the graphic depictions like Peneleos knocking out Ilioneus's eyeball and could exactly imagine how it would look in a movie. It may not have played in Victorian times, but I would say it's the fashion again & what all does that imply?

[ 04-02-2002: Message edited by: Persephone ]
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:11 / 04.02.02
Yes, I think that I basically agree with you, Haus, that the actions of the gods do not definitively influence a mortal's actions - after all, I felt much more sympathetic to some mortals than others despite the fact that they had equal amounts of godly attention - in fact I think the only major warrior who receives no aid from a deity is Telemonian Aias; I liked Hektor much more than Agamemnon, for example.

So Ierne's picture of a multi-layered conflict with Zeus as the controlling influence seems to be a good way to look at it, providing we take into account the personalities of each mortal/God/'player'... bearing in mind that this is something which, presumably, the gods must also be aware of as they 'lean' on mortals in various ways

Which is good, because it allows the heroes of the Iliad to actually be heroic, and I don't think they would be if they were entirely playthings of the gods. Interesting q - does their heroism rest entirely in feats of arms? It seems to me that Paris is a bit of a layabout, but he still springs into battle when Hektor has a go at him, and is referred to as heroic and godlike and so on...

[ 04-02-2002: Message edited by: Kit-Cat Club ]
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
13:21 / 04.02.02
I do have what I think may be mynswer to that, but it's very long and probably rather dull - will leave the field for now and check back later...
 
 
Ethan Hawke
13:21 / 04.02.02
I think calling Paris "heroic" and "godlike" just refer to his divine lineage. Besides, it seems like everyone in the book is referred to at least once as "godlike."

As for heroic, what does everyone think about the "heroic" description of Odysseus and (IIRC) Diomedes invading the camp of the sleeping Trojans and slaughtering several? Is this a heroic action? "Homer" seems to give Odysseus a lot of credit for this endeavour. Is this honorable, even in the terms of Greek warfare? Or is this why Odysseus, although given his "props" for being a godlike man, great warrior, etc. is seen with some suspicion by even the other Achaians (esp. Achilles)?
 
 
Ierne
13:38 / 04.02.02
Interesting q - does their heroism rest entirely in feats of arms–Kit-Cat Club

That is an interesting question. I would say not, or not in all cases.

This was originally an oral legend about a warrior/noble class, most likely sang or recited to a warrior and/or noble class.

I don't know how different or similar storytellers like Homer would be to the Celtic Bards, who recited such tales for money and/or the protection of royalty. But most definitely in the Bards' case, one must ALWAYS give royalty/leadership good face, even if they're undeserving of it, or one loses their protection and generosity.

This would be the case not just in singing about a particular noble/chieftain that is providing said money/protection, but also past heroes, chieftains and leaders. There was a set mode of characterization in which a leader was addressed and discussed, and to deviate from that would be considered highly disrespectful. Of course, once that "good face" was given, it was up to the bard to show hir skills in fleshing out the reality as subtly as possible.

I see a similar situation taking place here in the Iliad. Homer makes a point to glorify Agamemnon as king– because he's king! – while also noting his foibles elsewhere. Same with Alexander/Paris.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
13:38 / 04.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Persephone:
About the gods... I think a way to think about them is not so much that they're not human, but that they're not-human. So "capricious" may not apply to the gods. I think in a way the gods themselves are limited by the way they're made.
See, when I read the text, I'm pressed towards seeing them as being human - or, rather, as posessing a lot of human-like weakness, in contrast to some of the generic description of combatants elsewhere. The battling warriors come across as being free of human qualities (at times, not all the time - Paris is pretty much a proud cock for most of the time) for the most part, whereas there's always some kind of... flaw? peccadillo? that's used to describe the varying gods. Maybe it's just another version of the handles that're used to describe other characters (ie: "well-greaved", etc) but it seemed... different, somehow. I know that Zeus is the big cheese, immortal and stronger than anyone else (though I'm always reminded of Mr T in those "Mr T versus..." cartoons when he talks about how he throws people down to earth) but I still can't shake the image of him as a grumpy father, ready to deliver a good slapping. It's almost like a soap-opera, and the humans are (mostly, offspring excepted) characters The Sims or something.

I do like the suggestion that it's out of the ennui of being immortal that brings about the gods' fiddling with lives. There's good thoughts about the role of fate here - need to have more of a think about it, I think. I definitely agree that there's a strong case for suggesting that this is Zeus' narrative; he's the arbiter of everything, even though he is constrained by what's "expected", isn't he? (I mean, there's times when it's mentioned that if he shows particular favour to certain people - Sarpedon, say - it'll piss off the other gods. So, in essence, he has to act as he'd expect/demand the others to act, or risk their rebellion; the boss constrained by his own rules?

Actually, that interests me. How many constraints are there on the deities in The Iliad? It's often suggested that gods (in general, I spose) are meant to be all-powerful and free - but here, there's definite limits.

[ 04-02-2002: Message edited by: The Return Of Rothkoid ]
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
13:44 / 04.02.02
Oh - and just to fluff it a bit: has anyone tried out The Iliad Game?
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
14:11 / 04.02.02
Gods can be beaten up, or harmed, although generally only with the aid of other gods. They can be imprisoned and when Ares was captured there is a suggestion that he could have died if he had not been rescued.

Beyond that, each one had its own strengths and weaknesses, and specific areas. In many ways, they seem to be like the heroes - timocratic, and very much standing on their dignity. So, when Apollo is disrespected by the mistreatment of his priest, he sends plague (one of his specialties) to the Achaian camp. When a wall is built without the necessary sacrifices, the original builders of the wall of Troy take offence and later destroy it. Obviously, Athena and Here are on the Achaian side to avenge the affront of Paris' judgement, altohugh it is not mentioned.

I think part of the problem is that the ILiad takes place ina series of narratives where the engagemnet of man and god becomes less tight. Way back when, the Gods used to hang out with humans, which ended with Lycaon, but fairly close relationships of a kind never seen in the Iliad did occur - Tydeus is the obviosu one, whom Athene had a close relationship with - see also Hippolytus, Heracles and other heroes from the generation of heroes before the current one, or the one before that.

The only person in Homer with a similarly close relationsdhip is Odysseus with Athena in the Odyssey, and he is probably part of an older myth cycle. The gods are disengaging from humanity (this is largely my conjecture). As a result, the Trojan war is a bit like a football match - the supporters ofthe losign side will be depressed, and the supporters of the winning side jubilant, but that's as far as it goes. People are not beloved of gods in the same way.

So, yes, the gods are functionally immortal - they play at war, but none of them are ever more than temporarily harmed; it is indeed a game, and one which costs the lives of the Achaians and Trojans.

One one level, this makes them far less than the heroes, who contend every day in an attempt to gain immortality the only way they can - by winning glory. Gods cannot really understand hman feelings, because they have nothing to lose.

On the other hand, they are also massively more powerful than humans, and see them as too fleeting to be too emotionally involved with. Note the rather chilling moment when the gods are fighting and, after a series of fairly comic scenes, Apollo declines to fight, because it is quite simply undignified to do so over human concerns.

Which kind of ties into what is honourable and praiseworhty. To develop form Ierne's point - what aparet from fighting is treated as admirable among the Achaianas and Trojans?
 
 
Persephone
16:27 / 04.02.02
quote:Originally posted by The Return Of Rothkoid:
The battling warriors come across as being free of human qualities (at times, not all the time - Paris is pretty much a proud cock for most of the time) for the most part, whereas there's always some kind of... flaw? peccadillo? that's used to describe the varying gods.


Actually when you bring up Paris, that makes me think even more that to be human *is* to be heroic. To be human (vs. immortal) is to know suffering and death, and the men on the battlefield have it in their face. Ultimate heroism, ultimate humanity.

Whereas the gods do not face that, ever. And Paris does not "face" that in another way. That gives "godlike Paris" another meaning...

To address something else you said, I think that faced with death, men do lose their domestic qualities. Whereas you are seeing the gods still at home, so to speak. Possibly if Odysseus were at home, he'd be having some trivial argument with Penelope... it is interesting that Hector becomes more human to you when he's talking to Andromache.

On a totally other note, how cool is it that Hephaistos has cauldrons that move around where he needs them?

[ 04-02-2002: Message edited by: Persephone ]
 
 
Ierne
18:16 / 04.02.02
To be human (vs. immortal) is to know suffering and death, and the men on the battlefield have it in their face. Ultimate heroism, ultimate humanity...And Paris does not "face" that in another way. That gives "godlike Paris" another meaning... – Persephone

Two vibes I got from Paris, and how he was percieved by other warriors:

1) There were many references to his looks, his physical attractiveness and the attention he paid to his appearance. Part of this may have been due to his association with Aphrodite, but it also seemed to have been a put-down, the "pretty boy" coming into the fray. Even though he did fight and kill people, his exploits on the battlefield aren't given as much of a positive spin. His warrior skills don't seem to be so integral to his character.

2) There's a great deal of resentment towards him from both sides, because his action ( taking Helen away from Menelaos) is the direct cause of the fighting. If he hadn't done what he did, lots of people wouldn't be dying. So that negativity puts him in a different place from the other characters. He is deferred to because he's of royal blood, but sometimes the impression is given that many of the Trojans would have liked to do him in themselves.

{Please note: this is the first time I have ever read the Iliad. Hopefully I'm not saying anything painfully gauche or obvious to those of you that have studied it academically, or have read it many times before.}

[ 04-02-2002: Message edited by: Ierne ]
 
 
Persephone
19:48 / 04.02.02
Ironically, who kills Achilles? Paris.

Which isn't in this poem, I was so surprised when it ended. Where does the rest of story about Achilles come from?

I have to go home and see if I can find my childhood Iliad, it was a little flat paperback with illustrations here and there; but it was pretty racy & had the whole scene where Hera seduces Zeus, and also the temptation of Paris by Aphrodite. There was such this sad scene where it's the horses that bring Patroclus back to Achilles, when they stop the chariot at the tent they're crying; and one of them says, "Master, we bring you Patroclus," and then the other, to clarify, "We bring you the body of Patroclus." God I loved that book, I was so afraid when I started reading this grownup Iliad that it would be boring. I was so happy that the horses still talk in this version, I thought that was just made up for kids. Anyway, that version ended with Paris shooting Achilles in the ankle.

It is interesting to think about Paris, isn't it? I didn't pay him much mind as I was reading this time around, and now it occurs to me that I didn't like to look at him! Because he was not behaving properly, you know? But now I think about it, that sort of makes him one of the more standout characters in the story & almost subversive!
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
19:51 / 04.02.02
One way to look at it may be - what does Paris tell us about the Trojans? When he delivers his challenge, he is dressedin a lionskin - beautiful and striking but utterly impractical, so he has to go and change. He can fight well, and does so, but prizes other gifts as highly. Also, he is *domestic* - like Hector, he is fighting for his homeland, but specifically for his bed.

Compare Nastes and Glaucus (expensive armour they get very little use of), and Gorgythion in Book 8 (dies like a poppy) - the Trojans often have a gaudiness or an aesthetic quality about them that the Achaians generally lack...
 
 
Persephone
20:12 / 04.02.02
That guy dying like a poppy, HOLY SHIT.

Anyway, you've just given me an idea. Leaving the field...

(And I have to put dinner on.)
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
06:55 / 05.02.02
I dunno, Haus - there's that bit where Agamemnon and Menelaos are rounding up the Achaian leaders in the night, and the narrative goes into detail about what each of them puts on as he gets up - Menelaos in a lionskin, their tunics, bright sandals & so on (though perhaps what we are seeing here is greater definition of the leaders outside the battle context).
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
07:25 / 05.02.02
Sure - to what extent Trojans and Greeks are differentiated is one of the big questions.

And you are quite right - attention is paid to the Greek dress as well. You could see that episode as an arming-scene, which can take place before an aristeia (period of excellence on the field of battle), but not exclusively. The big arming scene is obviously Achilles' in Book 19, but Paris gets one in Book 3, Agamemnon in Book 11 and I seem to recall Hector gets one in at some point as well.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:49 / 05.02.02
But anyway... back to Paris - I felt that, while he was treated much like any other warrior in many respects, it was his specific connexion with Aphrodite that made him seem more effeminate than the other warriors (and I definitely did get that impression) - whereas we are pretty much just told that Achilles and the other Achaians have girls (prizes) in their tents, we see Paris lounging around in Troy in a sort of boudoir context.. some sort of contrast between sexual love and warrior-like heroism/manhood/not sure what the appropriate term here is, perhaps? (Can't be an Ares/Aphrodite contrast as they're both rooting for the Trojans...)

Because in that case we can see that Achilleus (who tells us that he loves Briseis as if she were his wife) is deflected from his pursuit of battle honours by an issue of sexual love...Agamemnon taking his battle prize is an emasculating gesture...

Head in a spin. Back in a bit.
 
 
Cavatina
07:59 / 05.02.02
I haven't finished reading yet(still in 20). Isn't the anger of Achilleus awesome? I've been interested to see if and how any character development is conveyed, and was struck by the lovely passage on p.297 when Achilleus says to his mother:

" ... oh, that quarrels should vanish from gods and men, and resentment, which drives even a man of good sense to anger! It is far sweeter to men than trickling honey, and swells to fill their hearts like smoke - "

This self-knowledge doesn't so far seem to have lessened his capacity for fury, though:

"The noise of grinding came from his teeth, and his eyes glowed like the light of a fire ... " (p. 320).

[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: Cavatina ]
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
07:59 / 05.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Persephone:
Actually when you bring up Paris, that makes me think even more that to be human *is* to be heroic. To be human (vs. immortal) is to know suffering and death, and the men on the battlefield have it in their face. Ultimate heroism, ultimate humanity.

Whereas the gods do not face that, ever. And Paris does not "face" that in another way. That gives "godlike Paris" another meaning...
Which begs the question, I guess, of whether the gods are ever truly noble or heroic in the same way that humans are? As long as they stay out of Zeus' way, the gods don't really have anything to prove, and seem to be more interested in toying with the combatants than anything else. At least, I suppose they appear this way in the relatively restive surrounds of Olympus; though as you say, the narrative would be much different if the combatants were closer to normal home-life...
 
 
Persephone
11:34 / 05.02.02
quote:Originally posted by The Return Of Rothkoid:
Which begs the question, I guess, of whether the gods are ever truly noble or heroic in the same way that humans are?


Right, that is what I mean: they are not. They don't have to be. Actually the more I think about it, the more I like it that the gods are more "human" than the humans. Because that makes you think, what do you mean by human? Flawed? Domestic? Etc.

I think that the object is not to understand the gods. As Pope said, the proper study of man is man --well, I don't wholly subscribe to that, but anyway. We invent gods to understand ourselves. Say, for example, that you don't look at the gods in the Iliad as gods but as some other aspect of man--e.g., Odysseus can't be in two places at once, and at the moment he is busy with war; but the way Zeus rules the roost, is that a picture of Odysseus at home?

Or this whole business of the gods putting thoughts into men's heads and yet men having their own ideas... that's familiar to me, and I don't believe in gods. There's things that I consciously choose & other things that I feel control me, though I feel these are also me.

Ah shit, where am I? Damn, it's going to be a long trek back to the text...
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
11:38 / 05.02.02
Although gods can act like heroes (Ares, in particular, obviously enjoys playing at being a warrior), I don't think they can be heroic.

A few thoughts on heroism.

Implicit within the idea of heroism is mortality. Achilles makes this clear when he spells out that he could have stayed at home and been fated to live a long life. Then again, Achilles is a special case, and that life would come to an end anyway.

Sarpedon points out to Glaucus that there is no way to ensure immortality just by not turning up to battles, and adds that their readiness to fight and die is why the Lycians give them pride of place at the banquetting table and the best cuts of meat.

Interestingly, this is not entirely because they are champions and protectors of their people. The Lycian interest is not served by having their best men go off and die at Troy, a fact often picked up on when allies of the Trojans die by a comment on how their family far away mourned them. They are honoured not because of what they fight for but because they fight - because it is *heroic* to do so.

So what makes a hero? Well, first up, Greek and Trojan are organised along timocratic lines - whoever has the most honour is in charge. Therefore the man with most honour is the most "noble", or the "greatest". Uncle Friedrich is very interesting on the use of adjectives in Ancient Greek.

Honour (time) is connecte to the abstract idea of "excellence" (arete), which is like but unlike the Latin "virtus", meaning "possession of the manly virtues". Honour, in terms of how you are treated, can be seen as an instantiation of your arete.

So, I would suggest that one of the central debates of the Iliad is what actually constitutes excellence, and what is honourable, and this debate begins in the first book.

Excellence in battle is clearly one measure of heroism, but by no means the only one. Elsewhere, people are accorded respect for their ability to compete in various sports, their capacity to speak in the Assmebly (Diomedes, as an excellent fighter and an excellent speaker, can be seen as something of a model of heroism), and, of course, their wealth and power.

And it's here that we hit a fundamental problem. As leader of the Achaian forces, Agamemnon has to be able to command respect. If he is deprived of one fo the manifestations of the honour he is accorded - Chryseis - his ability to command respect is reduced. So, by taking Briseis, he effectively sets up a conflict between the value of a hero with wealth and soldiers to back his claims to preeminence, and that of somebody who exemplifies the individual virtues. If it were just a question of who is hardest, bravest etc, Achilles would obviously win, but the fact that they are both kings and base their claims to honour on this as much as on personal qualities makes a difference.

Agamemnon in Book 9 makes his offer and (although Odysseus and Aias cleverly don't repeat it, IIRC) adds that Achilles should accept this as Agamemnon is the greater *king*. And this is something Achilles fundamentally cannot do - the issue here is not Briseis (and he may claim to love her as a wife, but makes it clear in Book 9 that he has never thought of marrying her), but whether Agamemnon's nobility entitles him to take her.

Note that this argument is never resolved - when Achilles "reconciles" with Agamemnon, he brushes the matter aside as no longer relevant - he is moving beyond the codes of heroism and nobility as he is moving beyond being strictly speaking human or indeed strictly speaking alive.

Add to that the fact that other characteristics apparently unconcerned with martial valour or the strength of one's armies can also be seen as worthy of honour - Paris' "gifts of Aphrodite", Achilles' ability to run fast at track meets, Patroclus' kindness and way with a cocktail shaker - and things get yet more complex. I would propose that anything self-defining is honourable when done well; in general, lying and cheating may be seen as "dishonourable", but because Odysseus has it as his schtick and does it well it is in his hands admirable.

So, heroism can be seen as the possession of a variety of personal or societal advantages and the willingness to deprive oneself of all of them through an early death, even when that death benefits nobody. By which logic, immortal entities can by definition not be heroic.


Thoughts?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:21 / 05.02.02
Yes - that makes sense of it, even the fact that several of the heroes have qualities which are not usually thought of as 'heroic' while still quite clearly being heroic. Thanks.
 
 
Persephone
12:32 / 05.02.02
But what *about* Agamemnon?

I really dig this idea that time is an instantiation of arete... that's similar to the Puritans in New England (I think), who believed that material wealth was a sign of God's grace.

Just to clarify, below do you mean "excellent" or "honorable"?

quote: I would propose that anything self-defining is honourable when done well; in general, lying and cheating may be seen as "dishonourable", but because Odysseus has it as his schtick and does it well it is in his hands admirable.

Because... back to Agamemnon, he has lots of honor; but as Achilles says, Agamemnon's honor is earned for him by other people's blood/sweat/tears. Does Agamemnon have excellence of his own?

Agamemnon = capitalist pig?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:40 / 05.02.02
On the other hand Agamemnon's death is not really that of a hero, is it - killed under his own roof rather than at war.
 
  

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