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Underground > Books, Criticism & Writing >

"Lord of the Rings": Rightwing Book, Nazi Film?

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17:59 / 31.01.02

I just read this tribute to Tolkien from Gene Wolfe, engineer, inventor, and damn fine author, in which he says this:

quote:We have -- but do not need -- a pestilent swarm of exceedingly clever persons who call themselves public servants when everything about them and us proclaims that they are in fact our masters. They make laws (and regulations and judicial decisions that have the force of laws) faster and more assiduously than any factory in the world makes chains; and they lay them on us.

It need not be so. We might have a society in which the laws were few and just, simple, permanent, and familiar to everyone -- a society in which everyone stood shoulder-to-shoulder because everyone lived by the same changeless rules, and everyone knew what those rules were. When we had it, we would also have a society in which the lack of wealth was not reason for resentment but a spur to ambition, and in which wealth was not a cause for self-indulgence but a call to service. We had it once, and some time in this third millennium we shall have it again; and if we forget to thank John Ronald Reuel Tolkien for it when we get it, we will already have begun the slow and not always unpleasant return to Mordor. Freedom, love of neighbour, and personal responsibility are steep slopes; he could not climb them for us -- we must do that ourselves. But he has shown us the road and the reward.

Overall, the essay could be read as a defense of feudalism, but he does raise some interesting points.

07:23 / 01.02.02

Sounds a bit off the money to me, Grant... 'we had it once...' - when?

Edited to clarify: yes, Tolkien may have been influenced by depictions of fellowship and clan government in the literature of the Dark Ages, but how on earth is it possible to be so rosy-spectacled as to ignore the bloodiness of clan warfare, the lawlessness of some of the later feudal societies (robber barons etc). Moreover, the closest we get to this in LOTR is the Rohirrim... the hobbits' society seems to be modelled on the kind of local gentry/yeoman farmers pattern you might have found in the Midlands in the Victorian era, but with added benevolence.

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Kit-Cat Club ]

14:52 / 01.02.02

"When": In the essay, Wolfe points to a time after the fall of Rome and before the rise of Charlemagne, I think.

"Rosy": Yeah, it is. But it does point out the kind of wistfulness you get from reading LOTR; the possibility of what, of class difference without exploitation, I suppose.

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

14:58 / 01.02.02

quote:Originally posted by grant:
"When": In the essay, Wolfe points to a time after the fall of Rome and before the rise of Charlemagne, I think.

Right. Yeah. That Utopian sixth century we hear so much nostalgia for.

Gene Wolfe, I suspect, is high right now...

All Acting Regiment

16:10 / 31.07.05

I was thinking about this recently, after talking to an Indian friend about the cultural signifiers used in the film: dress code, architecture etc. Consider this idea:

Middle Earth: Pantheistic, nature-based religion, huge mythology, many different cultures within the place as a whole, much unspoilt natural terrain, mainly male but partly female, in that there are female characters with important roles- or, India, before the British Empire.

I know it's a generalisation to describe Hinduism as a "nature-based religion", but in as much as it is very varied and exists in many different forms it seems you could in some ways compare it to the diverse beleifs and mythology of Middle Earth.

Mordor: Monotheistic religion. Heavily industrialised. Always seeking to grow. Strongly and almost 100% exclusively masculine dominated. Where Middle Earth is diverse, Mordor is very uniform, all being the same colour. Mordor has no respect for the ideas or people it finds in Middle Earth. Mordor= Victorian England?

In terms of the uniform colouring and lack of diversity: maybe this is the stranglehold and uniformity of empire and bureaucracy?

I can see this slightly stretched, but I thought you might find it interesting. I'm not claiming that this interpretaton is what Tolkein intended, mind.

02:02 / 01.08.05

Actually, I think that *is* what Tolkien intended, only at a remove -- like Conrad's speechifying about the Thames in the intro and outro to Heart of Darkness, it's a mythologizing of pre-Christian Britain. I'm pretty sure Tolkien (born in South Africa, taught literature) was into Conrad & his conception of Britain-as-colonized-Other-all-growed-up.

All Acting Regiment

20:01 / 11.04.06

Here's another snippet.

Thèoden is a powerful male monarch, but his power, his will, is being sapped by Grimer Wormtongue. Now, was Wormtongue described in the book as having dark hair? I certainly seem to remember him being described as wet and effeminate.

Now look at the trapped king's name: Thèoden. Sounds like The Odin, no? So, Odin, as in (obviously this is a flawed modern interpretation) Great White God of the anti-semites. What's grimer? A wimpy, faintly homosexual, effeminate beurocrat? Is this supposed to be Jewish, linking in with the whole mythology of Jews running banks and so on?

So are we seeing a coded reference to the white man's power needing to throw off the chains of Jewish interference? Again, I realise I'm probably stretching things here.

20:34 / 11.04.06

...

Yeah, probably.

Not in the Face

11:34 / 13.04.06

Now look at the trapped king's name: Thèoden. Sounds like The Odin, no?

Or not

Théoden:
The name Théoden means "chief, leader, king" from the Old English ðeoden. The word ðeod means "nation, people."
Bright's Old English Glossary

A lot of Tolkein's names are simply straghtforward descriptions of that character's role in society - Grima for instance. And I don't see where you get the idea that he is faintly homosexual - it is his desire of Eowyn that at least partially motivates his betrayal and he was at one point, I seem to recall, a rider of the Mark.

12:06 / 25.04.06

quote, posted by grant:
The final battle of the books, the Cleansing of the Shire, has a global technocrat being thrown from power by a mass uprising of exploited laborers.

I was dissapointed that this part of the books didn't have a larger part in the movies, as it was one of my favorite parts, and so unconventional for a fantasy story: All major conflicts are settled, everyone has gone home, and out of left field, it's a pseudo-communist revolution by a downtrodden agrarian working class agaisnt a foreign white imperialist. Although he probably didn't include it b/c it wasn't neccesary to the plot, its abscence certainly lends credence to the idea that Jackson was trying to make the film more right-wing than the books.

Kiltartan Cross

12:56 / 25.04.06

As I recall, homosexuality simply does not exist in Middle Earth, it's just not something that's part of the world. Although there's some cracking incest in the Silmarillion ("borrowed" from the Kalevala) if you want hot deviant exciting action.

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:01 / 25.04.06

As I recall, homosexuality simply does not exist in Middle Earth,

Har de har.

18:27 / 25.04.06

As I recall, homosexuality simply does not exist in Middle Earth,

I'm not sure it doesn't exist, as much as it is simply not mentioned. Sex is, in general, quite absent in Tolkien's narrative. The few "romantic" relationships mentioned in the book (Strider + Arwen; Strider + Eowin; Gimli + Galadriel; Samwise + Rosie) are all quite platonic (Aragorn + Arwen is the only exception, but only by an inch - Elven ladies do stay virgin until marriage). Tolkien was simply not interest in sex as a plot device. His religious background may have a huge participation in this.

18:55 / 25.04.06

Aragorn + Arwen is the only exception, but only by an inch

OMG how can you say that about Aragorn!

(Sorry for threadrot, couldn't help it.)

Kiltartan Cross

20:38 / 25.04.06

I'm not sure it doesn't exist, as much as it is simply not mentioned. Sex is, in general, quite absent in Tolkien's narrative. The few "romantic" relationships mentioned in the book (Strider + Arwen; Strider + Eowin; Gimli + Galadriel; Samwise + Rosie) are all quite platonic (Aragorn + Arwen is the only exception, but only by an inch - Elven ladies do stay virgin until marriage). Tolkien was simply not interest in sex as a plot device. His religious background may have a huge participation in this.
Yah, fair does. I'm sure I remember seeing it explicitly - that's your cue, Haus - defined as absent somewhere in the reams of Tolkein letters/commentary/bumf, but thinking about it it was probably a Christopher T. statement. I can't, er, back it up (ba-bing!).

Our Lady Has Left the Building

20:11 / 26.04.06

spectre Although he probably didn't include it b/c it wasn't neccesary to the plot, its abscence certainly lends credence to the idea that Jackson was trying to make the film more right-wing than the books.

Which idea was that again? Your secret 'OMG Peter Jackson is a Tory!' theory?

I'm also not that happy that it got cut, but I'm not running to theories that Jackson cut it out just because he subscribes to John Major's tosh about vicars cycling on village greens over maidens churning butter...

Less searchable M0rd4nt

21:04 / 26.04.06

The sex thing is kind of interesting. I think it's entirely fair to say that there is no sexuality, of any orientation, in LotR. There is courtly love, good wholesome yearning for the girl next door, unrequited pining for Elven queens ect chiz moan drone; there is OMG squee Sam+Frodo 4EVAH!!! but there's not much in the way of actual verifiable nookie. There is breeding, certainly, but you're left with the feeling that Sam's progeny was dropped off between the asterisks by passing Entwives.

I remember reading some dreadful thing of David Eddings' on the subject, in which he remarked that there were no hobbit 'girls' (his word, not mine); there were hobbit matrons and 'female hobbit puppies,' but no hot chixxx. This is true. There are also no human 'girls', not really, and all the elven women are decently unattainable unless you're the right sort of chap. There's not much out-and-out male sexuality on display, more a sort of sex-free sexiness, but there's even less female sexuality.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

21:25 / 26.04.06

Mordant, I think you hit the nail on the head with the idea of Courtney Love being the prevalent sexuality in LotR.

Shit I read that wrong.

But in all seriousness, the "romance" in LotR is very much par for the course for many of the works T would have read as a scholar. In many of the Arthurian legends Lancelot never jumps in bed with Guinevere (I ignore Mists of Avalon for many reasons...) but is shamed simply by his feelings for her. Many of the texts that could be considered source material for LotR contain romance and courtship, but little in the way of sexuality.

A few days ago the topic of the Shire came up in convo and someone suggested that the end of RotK was a cautionary tale about the rise of Communism...

Less searchable M0rd4nt

21:48 / 26.04.06

Um. Dude. Have you read much on the Arthurian side of things, not to mention the Icelandic literature that gets referenced so heavily throughout LotR? People shag all the time. It seems to be pretty much punctuation, a way of breaking up the fight scenes into managable chunks. They shag the right people, the wrong people, the wrong people disguised as the right people and vice versa, inside the family and outside the species, and only stop when the long-lost son of someone they shagged in the first bit of the saga suddenly turns up and sticks a sword in them. Sure, you can find nice polite sanitised versions of all this, but if you look they were put together around or not long before JRRT's time.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

22:04 / 26.04.06

In the research I have done (minimal really, tbh) into the 'adventure' stories surrounding Arthur and his knights there seems to be sex when the story requires an heir, which is true in the LotR. I suppose with a deeper reading of the language used someone better versed in old and middle english could see things I don't. I was mainly referring to the fact that Mordred was not always Arthurs illegitimate child, Gawain resisted the wiles of the Green Knight's Lady, Persival (Parsifal?) resisted the earthly temptations through many of the versions of his story.

So yeah, I have read some, but perhaps not the randy ones.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

22:26 / 26.04.06

To be fair my Arthur kick was a while back, but I don't recall Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur as being exactly staid. Granted there were earlier works, which might have had a different take on things.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

22:40 / 26.04.06

Translation could be a part of it as well, where as one person might translate that someone loved someone as meaning a courtly kiss on the cheek love, someone else could translate it as LOVED (wink wink nudge nudge say no more). My reading has mostly been just enough to hold a conversation with my better half and her historian friends when we are at the bar, so I avoid the more obscure works and stick to things I can Wiki if need be.

Back on topic though.

There is also the possibility (although slim I would gather) that his contemporaries are the ones who who tempered Tolkeins use of sexuality. Who is to say he didn't head to the pub one day with a few pages of Hobbit on Hobbit written out only to have that prude CS Lewis tell him it was rubbish. Of course, I thought the Narnia books were about incest when I was a kid ("How can they be kind and queen AND brother and sister? Ewwwww") so take the theory with a grain of salt, a lime and a shot of tequilla.

Not in the Face

09:05 / 27.04.06

Generally medievalising literature (that is literature written after the period that was in the style of, or about the period) tends to be highly romanticised - Spencer's 'Faery Queen', Mallory's 'Morte D'Arthur', Tennyson (pretty much everything) and ERR Eddison's 'the Worm Ourouborous' are all good examples. Tolkein I suspect was as much following convention as he was putting his own ideas about sex - or the lack of it - into the novel.

By contrast the original texts for Arthur, Tristan and Isolde, Gawain and Green Knight are full of sex, usually relying on metaphor and imagery than any graphic description. Lancelot, prior to rescuing the queen sneaks through the garden surrounding her, climbs the tower and cuts himself opening the bars on her window - the blood on the sheets is later used by her captive as proof of her infidelity - a double joke by the author.

Elijah I think you are right about the influence of his contemporaries. Tolkein and Lewis were part of a little club of academics who used to dissect each others work down the pub. If memory serves correct they were mostly Christian in slant and all men, so I suspect there was a certain amount of peer pressure to keep things clean

Our Lady Has Left the Building

11:41 / 27.04.06

I think it's always worth bearing in mind that the LotR books were started as a childrens story and stayed that way for a very long time, reading the various draft versions it's hard to tell when this stopped, or whether it truly ever did in Tolkien's mind, but that may have influenced his thinking in writing.

Kiltartan Cross

12:18 / 27.04.06

Grail stories and sex
Cup = Cunt
In the nicest possible, worshipful, symbolic sense of things.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

13:16 / 27.04.06

And the symbolism works to a point, and as one interpretation. The Grail which the Knights hunter for was not the Holy Grail of Christ until the 12th century. Early writings describe the grail more as a platter.

In fact, googling looking for the correct language got me this site:
Grail Stuff

Kiltartan Cross

14:07 / 27.04.06

Yes. The question of whether an appropriated symbol can be treated as retaining some of its original meaning is an interesting one, after all, it's difficult to appropriate a symbol without at least knowing its meaning! Although, I suppose, we see (for instance) Western mythological symbols like Arthur lifted wholesale into Japanese computer games, without really placing them in any kind of context, and vice-versa, so it's possible Chretien or whoever stood up one day and thought (not in so many words!) "hmm, cups are a good and well-used symbol, everyone likes those, I'll have one!"

As for Tolkein, there are parts of the Silmarillion which are lifted almost word-for-word*, and certainly plot-for-plot, from the Kalevala (as I'll never tire of pointing out. The Kalevala is great!) Not more than the plot, though; I think we can call most of Tolkein's symbolism his own. Even then... he doesn't seem all that big on the symbolism, to me. There aren't many instances of X appearing and standing for Y. Good is White and Bad is Black, that's about it. If he was equating Bad = Black = Black skin, which he does suggest in several places, that could be racist if he was trying to make a direct point about the real world. Which I rather doubt he was...

*as is part of Northern Lights, if I remember right.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

15:21 / 27.04.06

If he was equating Bad = Black = Black skin, which he does suggest in several places, that could be racist if he was trying to make a direct point about the real world. Which I rather doubt he was...

Indeed. He was creating a world to house the languages he wanted to make. I think he just took some of the most basic fantasy symbolism and wrote an excellent narrative in that framework. I don't mean to take away from his creation by saying this, of course, just to see its squishy innards.

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