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Lateshift Numero blah blah blah et un.

 
 
Saint Keggers
01:53 / 20.12.09
I'm pretty sure I haven't a chance in hades for someone to respawd to this in a timely manner.. but c'est la vie. I'm here and all signals are set to awesome... are you? are your?
 
 
iamus
16:15 / 20.12.09
I've just been reading through old lateshifts, particularly plinthshift one and two.

How's the winemaking coming along old buddy old pal?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:34 / 20.12.09
What a lovely day I've had. I hope everyone else is having a lovely day also.
 
 
electric monk
20:19 / 20.12.09
It has been a lovely day. I am done with Xmas shopping and am posting here from my Droid. Which make me feel very Jetsons. I do hope everylovely is well.

Nice to see a Shift happen. Long may it continue.
 
 
deja_vroom
09:04 / 21.12.09
I gave a sonnet to this one girl here at work. I think it was a very, uhm, passable sonnet, but it didn't work out in the end. It seems she told a friend that she wasn't even gonna read it(verily, civilization is dead)! So I think I'm headed for a bit of a Charlie Brown Christmas (without a dancing dog to cheer everybody up as the credit rolls up).

The piece went like this [the original is in English, because we work at a translation company]:

Girl With Downcast Eyes

When I once recklessly looked at the Sun
I learned that too much light can also blind.
And these my days of blindness have begun
When I looked at you, faeries’ fairest kind.

Like the Sun, you need only to exist
To give my world its movement & strife.
So tethered to your orbit I’ll persist:
Know that you now possess this one man’s life.

But when by blind chance I chance upon you
You cast down your eyes and the Sun goes cold,
I’m left bereft, my day turns into night.

O angel of light clear eyes and hair of gold,
You’re beautiful; please be merciful too:
Once in a while, send me a ray of light.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:19 / 21.12.09
I don't know if it's a comfort, DV, but it's possible that it's not a sign that our culture is dead, but only that this young lady didn't feel it was appropriate to read a love poem from a colleague, which sounds, as a double positive, like a sign of a healthy work culture!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:32 / 21.12.09
Also, it's snowing! How delightful this is, and how beautiful the snow looks. Hopefully it will not interfere with the trip to the theatre tonight, which will also be lovely.
 
 
deja_vroom
14:53 / 21.12.09
but it's possible that it's not a sign that our culture is dead, but only that this young lady didn't feel it was appropriate to read a love poem from a colleague, which sounds, as a double positive, like a sign of a healthy work culture!

It could have been that, but it wasn't. There are more facts in this story, but you don't know them, because I didn't tell them. Thanks for the thought, though!

Here it's sunny, first day of Summer!
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:09 / 21.12.09
So tethered to your orbit I’ll persist:

It sounds like you were fortunate to escape a formal reprimand, or possibly even a restraining order, Mr. Vroom.
 
 
deja_vroom
15:14 / 21.12.09
Everyday and other I thank God that I'm removed from the cultural background which would allow such a scenario to take place.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:07 / 21.12.09
Oh, I don't know - this situation notwithstanding, since there were other elements we don't know about, I think a lot of HR staff do a great job walking that very difficult line between encouraging a friendly workplace culture (and one in which relationships _can_ take place) and avoiding harassment within the workplace. It's not exactly a happy thing, but I was at least somewhat inspired, on a similar theme, by the passionate defences of women's space mounted here. I know we've gone from sonnets to women's right to freedom from fear of rape, but I just can't stop pointing people to that article. Really, everyone should read it.
 
 
deja_vroom
16:37 / 21.12.09
I know we've gone from sonnets to women's right to freedom from fear of rape...

I know! Crazy, right? As I said, I'm thankful for being removed from such cultural/psychological background. It seems awfully straining on (every)one's nerves...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:12 / 21.12.09
Well, I think that's a much easier benefit to feel if you're a man - a lot of this stuff is about pegging back men's basic feelings of entitlement to occupy women's space, and to normalise that occupation. It's very confusing, of course, if you're a guy - especially if you're a nice guy.
 
 
deja_vroom
17:43 / 21.12.09
well, my women friends don't carry mace in their purses.

Also, women and men have their personal spaces breached everyday, in a wide-ranging assortment of situations. It's part of life. I don't think breaching that space is as much of a problem as it is staying there once it's been made clear that you're not welcome. Otherwise, it'd be the extinction of the species.

Coming back to the "cultural background" approach: Judging from governmental campaigns and the proliferation of NGOs against violence against women here, it seems domestic violence is still a most alarming issue (since in most cases it also encompasses rape). The text you linked comes from an environment where, to judge from the author, rape is always to be assumed. That's not, thank God, every place in the world.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:56 / 21.12.09
I think that post, and the discussion following it, cover that quite well, DV! Of course both women and men have their personal space invaded, but men are statistically not raped nearly as often as women. To be honest, this is one of those things that I think it's very hard for dudes to get their head round - that a pretty lady might be hearing your compliment of her lovely hair as the thirtieth such compliment received that day, and might have found that a number of the people who wanted to provide that compliment might have turned a bit aggressive when they discovered that they weren't going to get anything beyond an acknowledgement that they had, indeed, just said something nice about her hair.

Of course, it's possible that nobody has to worry about non-domestic violence in your neck of the woods, DV - I don't know where you live, but it sounds lovely. However, this is one of those situations where, as chaps, you and I might not be best placed to provide an experiential perspective.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:58 / 21.12.09
(And also, of course, I don't think the species is propagated very much as a result of men hitting on women on trains or in the street. Success at that endeavour is anecdote-worthy - it's not how people reproduce. But this is all in the original article, really.)
 
 
deja_vroom
18:12 / 21.12.09
(...)might have found that a number of the people who wanted to provide that compliment might have turned a bit aggressive when they discovered that they weren't going to get anything beyond an acknowledgement that they had, indeed, just said something nice about her hair.

See my comment re: remaining within someone's space after it's been made clear you're not welcome. It's a pretty simple social skill, and I think you and me both have good reasons for being sad when some men fail at that.

Of course, it's possible that nobody has to worry about non-domestic violence in your neck of the woods, DV

I... didn't say that. It's all about emphasis, really. I'm not denying the possibility of non-domestic violence, but acknowledging that violence against women takes different forms depending on where you are, and that women's reaction to the approach of men changes in response to those changes. In a context where the threat of domestic violence looms larger than the threat of being assaulted on the street, it makes sense to find (very) few women carrying mace in their purses. It's only logical.

And also, of course, I don't think the species is propagated very much as a result of men hitting on women on trains or in the street.

Neither do I. I don't know who said that, but he probably wasn't paying attention. All I said was that the propagation of the species necessarily demands an initial breach, take it the form it takes, an encounter, a change from a position in which elements A and B have not breached each others' personal space, do not know each other, to a situation in which that breach has occurred. Pretty simple stuff.
 
 
deja_vroom
18:14 / 21.12.09
...Aand with that I'm off (gonna catch that "Tokyo" movie, hope it's any good).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:33 / 21.12.09
All I said was that the propagation of the species necessarily demands an initial breach, take it the form it takes, an encounter, a change from a position in which elements A and B have not breached each others' personal space, do not know each other, to a situation in which that breach has occurred. Pretty simple stuff.

Sure, but I don't think that means harassment needs to be romanticised. Two people speaking is not necessarily an invasion of space. There are all sorts of circumstances in which it is clear that such a thing is perfectly welcome, and quite possibly the aim of the enterprise (singles bars, OKCupid, the rest). Thus, there is likewise a difference between somebody inviting contact (as the initial article made clear), and somebody being compelled to acknowledge it. The comments to that article are really interesting for the range of views they represent...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:22 / 21.12.09
It's like the Daily Poetry thread never went away.

Comedy gold, that was.
 
 
Tsuga
00:37 / 22.12.09
The Mefi discussion on that article was sometimes an interesting read, as well.
 
 
Evil Scientist
06:48 / 22.12.09
Is it 2006 again?
 
 
deja_vroom
10:27 / 22.12.09
Sure, but I don't think that means harassment needs to be romanticised.

Likewise, I don't think mere flirting needs to be vilified, especially when one's not aware of all the details of a particular case.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:58 / 22.12.09
Not my intention! You said there were other circumstances you hadn't divulged in that particular case, and I'm taking you at your word on that one. No doubt there were good reasons to give a co-worker a sonnet, and her decision not to read it is not, as it turns out, professionalism but rather the death of civilisation. Gotcha! That doesn't mean that it's appropriate to hassle women on the street, though.

God, I miss the Daily Poetry thread. Getting to meet Billy Corgan was amazing.
 
 
deja_vroom
14:08 / 22.12.09
That doesn't mean that it's appropriate to hassle women on the street, though.

Whoever brought that up anyway, I wonder...?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:11 / 22.12.09
Dude, I love you, but you can be very defensive sometimes. It makes it hard to say ONLY NICE THINGS.

The Mefi thread is very good, definitely - a number of women speak very movingly about their experiences - experiences which are often invisible to men, I think.
 
 
deja_vroom
14:16 / 22.12.09
Your protests of love are invading my personal space and making me feel uncomfortable. JOKING!
 
 
Char Aina
19:42 / 22.12.09
I didn't realise everyone was already talking about this over here, because I don't really read the board much, and have never been a big fan of lateshifts... Apologies for my prejudice. Please do join in over there if you can be arsed.
 
 
Char Aina
19:48 / 22.12.09
All I said was that the propagation of the species necessarily demands an initial breach, take it the form it takes, an encounter, a change from a position in which elements A and B have not breached each others' personal space, do not know each other, to a situation in which that breach has occurred. Pretty simple stuff.

The article isn't about stopping that, like. It's about doing that properly so as not to freak people out, largely by respecting cues that say 'leave me alone'. If it wasn't necessary to say so, that would be lovely.
Unfortunately, going by statistics, anecdotes and all the rest of the evidence I can find without looking very hard, it is necessary.

Thread is over here...
 
 
Papess
06:57 / 23.12.09
Gah. I can't sleep. How convenient that there is a lateshift here.
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:17 / 23.12.09
It's always here, moving things slightly to the left.
 
 
Haus Of Pain
13:03 / 12.03.10
Unless someone wants to flesh this thread out - and I don't - I'm going to move for a deletion.
 
  
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