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Nick Griffin trounced on Question Time

09:18 / 23.10.09

Ha, haha, hahaha- here's an article with a video of the best bits.

So- was the Beeb right to allow him on? I think they were. As one panelist pointed out it meant people got to see him for real rather than only hear his PR bullshit.

09:25 / 23.10.09

Certainly a lot of anti-fascists disagreed with me;
"A police helicopter hovered over the BBC Television Centre in west London while the recording took place, after 25 anti-fascist demonstrators had earlier broken through police lines to get into the foyer. Up to 1,000 demonstrators protested outside as the television centre was "locked down" during an operation in which three police officers were injured."

11:00 / 23.10.09

Check out this picture of Griffin;

If it looks familiar, you're probably thinking of John Hurt as Adam Sutler (Adam Susan in the comic) leader of the fascist party Norsefire in V for Vendetta;

D'you think it's deliberate? Or is he just mimicking the iconography of fascism and accidentally fulfilling Moore's prophetic vision?

By the way, that isn't a fake, I found it here http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/oct/21/nick-griffin-bnp-question-time

Poke it with a stick

15:40 / 23.10.09

And Cassetteboy's rustled something up already.

21:06 / 31.10.09

Do BBers really think he was ripped apart? I was queasy watching the whole thing and feel that Establishment anti-fascism did a disservice to the real thing. I wrote about it here:
http://forth.ie/index.php/content/article/the_bnp_true_blue_bloods

(Not spamming the board, honest)

ONLY NICE THINGS

01:39 / 01.11.09

The frappuccino-drinking classes have whipped themselves up into a froth

I see what you did there!

11:51 / 01.11.09

Yes, well, never mind. What about the idea that the BNP merely represent an outdated vision of British identity, not imported fascism?

ONLY NICE THINGS

12:06 / 01.11.09

Well, I think it neglects to consider the relationship between the revivification of the European far right with Le Pen, the post-modern extremism of Jorg Haider, the liberal fascism of Pim Fortuyn - there's really quite a lot of, ironically, conceptual miscegenation in the European far right. The Irish perspective may be the the BNP's brand of racism is as indigenous as the imaginary people they claim to represent, but it feels a bit different over here.

But, you know, it's just blogging. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

17:50 / 01.11.09

Blogging? Nope, I'm a working hack: http://journalisted.com/jason-walsh

Anyhoo, what I find interesting is that the Establishment is proudly anti-fascist and yet they are the ones that have unleashed the issues that allow the BNP to grow.

I'm not entirely convinced the BNP is related to Le Pen etc. except insofar as the overblown fear of immigrants, in particular Muslim immigrants, is looking pretty-much Europe-wide these days.

ONLY NICE THINGS

18:55 / 01.11.09

I do apologise. I didn't realise Forth.ie was a paying gig.

It looks like you don't want to look too closely at the European angle - a Eurosceptic approach, which is perfectly valid in international politics these days (just look at David Cameron tearing up the field). Certainly, the weakest and weirdest part of question time was when the question on immigration came up from what I imagine was a BNP member, and the politicians who had been kicking Nick Griffin around started squirming to reconcile that with their own party's stated desire to get tough on immigration and play to the gallery. Not a finest hour.

So, given that you and I might be the only people here, what's the Irish angle on this? Are there political parties or movements seeking to exploit the same ressentiment over the water?

20:52 / 01.11.09

On the EU, I'll respond later.

Re Ireland, no, no political traction in anti-immigration here (yet). Sinn Féin is resolutely pro-immigrant and pro-worker and the more mainstream parties, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, are at least pro-European anyway.

Representation (seats) at national level:

Government:
- Fianna Fáil - 77
- Green party - 6
- Independent 3 (2 of whom formerly the Progressive Democrats, now defunct)

Opposition:
Fine Gael - 51
Labour 20
Sinn Féin - 4
Independents - 2

The Green party will be lucky to win a single seat at the next election, such is their unpopularity. Fianna Fáil will lose a lot too.

Ireland's recession has swung left, not right.

The Socialist Party (ex-Militant Labour) will likely win back a seat they lost at the last election. Also, the People Before Profit Alliance (Socialist Workers Party) almost won a seat and probably will next time.

The 'Immigration Control Platform' party has never even won a council seat.

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:14 / 01.11.09

Thanks - that's really interesting. I'd ask more, but you're not here to satisfy my curiosity about Irish politics, so I'll do some research on my own. Don't feel you have to respond on the EU, by the way - I hope the Cameron thing came across as a joke rather than a dig. If you think their influence is negligible, that's fine - possibly it's more that there is a particular style which arrived earlier in France and was more stylishly expressed by Haider and Fortuyn, but that it's simultaneous inspiration more than influence.

21:43 / 01.11.09

Don't mind. Ask away.

ONLY NICE THINGS

22:47 / 01.11.09

Thanks! In which case, keeping it broadly inside the bottle of the working class anger the the BNP seeks to harness, why do you think Ireland has moved left in recession, when much of Europe seems to be plumping for centre-right government? Also, I'm interested that Sinn Fein are pro-immigration. I guess this is in part because of their left-leaning politics, but in light of their support for a no vote to the Lisbon treaty, is it a question of being pro-immigration but anti-European?

And, for that matter, when you identify much of Europe as suffering from anxiety about migrants in general and Islamic migrants in particular, why isn't this hitting Ireland? Is it generally low immigration, or an association of foreign influxes with the Republic's economic boom times?

07:41 / 02.11.09

All of the Irish left (other than Labour, which isn't really left) was anti-Lisbon. Lisbon was considered a bosses charter and attack on national self-determination by the Irish left.

Ireland has seen a huge amount of immigration but it's mostly been people who are relatively similar to the Irish such as Poles, Lithuanians etc. Nigerians are viewed with suspicion by some people so it's not as if racism is unimaginable.

I can't tell you exactly why things are the way they are but I have a few thoughts:

- Ireland is underpopulated and obviously so
- The Irish experience of inward migration has been positive
- Ireland itself was a 'second world' country until about 1996
- Irish people are moderately pro-EU (even most anti-Lisbon voters)

07:59 / 06.11.09

Those thoughts seem quite likely reasons to me. One thing though, I'm sure you meant 'Irish immigration has been largely people who are relatively ethnically similar to the Irish', not to nitpick but just sayin'

I was following the Lisbon referendum vaguely and heard an interesting R4 piece on it, bemoaning the dirty tactics of both the Yes and No sides and the unhappy position of the unemployed, facing a bleak looking future. It sounded like those people were worried for their children's prospects rather than blaming foreigners. In fact my woolly intuition is that people in Ireland are more likely to blame bosses than immigrants, perceiving a class divide more than a race divide.

Oh and to answer your question "Do BBers really think he was ripped apart?" obvs. I would have preferred a more thorough crushing, but at least nobody was saying 'Good point Nick, at last someone's standing up for the poor Englishman!'

12:43 / 06.11.09

Other possibilities I would like assessed for plausibility by someone who has actually been to Ireland
-as emigrants Irish people have experienced the pointy end of bigotry in the past and so may be more understanding of immigrants as a result
-they don't need to hate immigrants because they have the English to hate instead

13:39 / 06.11.09

Not mad on the entire concept of ethnicity but that's too long a debate to get into here.

-as emigrants Irish people have experienced the pointy end of bigotry in the past and so may be more understanding of immigrants as a result

Maybe. It's certainly something I use to criticise fellow Irish people when they do whinge about immigrants.

-they don't need to hate immigrants because they have the English to hate instead

No, the Irish don't hate the English at all. The English government isn't much liked but that's entirely different. Brits are actually the largest group of foreigners in Ireland according to CSO figures: http://cso.ie

Prior to 2004 most immigrants to Ireland were people from developed countries like Britain, Sweden and Germany seeking a (mythical) unspoiled land. Thankfully the Poles etc. are more sensible and don't view the place as some kind of ecological theme park.

Regrettable Juvenilia

16:02 / 09.11.09

I entirely agree. Johnny Giles and I had our differences but I always had the greatest of respect for him as a man and as a professional footballer, and I can say with confidence that he felt the same sentiments for me, even if he disagreed with some of my decisions as a manager.

12:53 / 12.11.09

Oh and to answer your question "Do BBers really think he was ripped apart?" obvs. I would have preferred a more thorough crushing, but at least nobody was saying 'Good point Nick, at last someone's standing up for the poor Englishman!'

Now now Quantum, he was merely *misquoted*. Throughout his entire career, apparently. I was quite disappointed no allegation of persecution by english-hating invisible extra-terrestrials was forthcoming.

23:59 / 16.11.09

ONT:

"the liberal fascism of Pim Fortuyn"

When one looks at the current state of Dutch politics, the debate has moved a lot more to the right since the days of Fortuyn, who, in retrospect can be given credit for (re-)introducing the topic of immigration in Dutch politics. Also, he addressed (in his own, admittedly, culturally charged way) the problems that arose from years of neglecting the increasing poverty rate, lack of education, and religious intolerance that had become more prevalent among second or third generation immigrants by the successive Dutch parliaments that were in power in the nineties.

Now, I do not like the current tone of the Dutch political debate concerning (muslim) immigrants/islam/ at all. Fortuyn's dim-witted heir Geert Wilders has put forth so many hurtful and downright racist comments that it shames me that many of my countrymen take the man so seriously.

Perhaps it is because the debate is becoming so increasingly xenophobic, stupid and racist that I now find myself in the position of having nostalgia for the man whose utterances I once found so alarming.

But, if I were given the option of only choosing between someone as eloquent, educated, and reasonably debatable as Pim Fortuyn, and the mewling, islam-bashing truly fascist-leaning Geert Wilders, I would choose Fortuyn any day.

19:07 / 04.03.10

Mind you I've never seen a film where he's actually bothered me. I quite like his screen presence.

19:44 / 04.03.10

Right then

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