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Underground > Temple >

I am that I'm not?

harmonic series

04:46 / 13.05.09

So... I'm watching "The Holy Mountain" (directed by Alejandro Jodorowsky) and reading Jung's "Psyche & Symbol" and they remind me that I have a very well defined ego, which may not be all that useful when practicing magic. Actually, it is certainly a hindrance. My sense of self ties me to the temporal world, it causes me to doubt the spiritual and it is focused on pleasure and pain rather than enlightenment. I'm wondering how one can effectively break down the ego in daily life (i.e. not move to the desert and starve oneself while only wearing a burlap sack) AND how much ego does one need to function properly?

11:25 / 13.05.09

I thought it was the id that was focused on pleasure and pain and whatnot. Isn't it the ego that takes the id drives and constructs more of a long-term plan of action about them?

Do you really need to go so far as destroying the part of you that you're identifying as the ego (which sounds more like the id/ego combo)? If you're finding that your drive for material gratification is getting in the way of your studies into the spiritual then surely forcing yourself to become more aware of those drives and learning to control them would be a better idea.

I personally think that doubting the spiritual is not necessarily a bad thing when you're doing magic (although one of the few remaining practitioners on site might want to chime in there). Open minded is good, but unquestioning open mindedness could be just as detrimental.

14:12 / 13.05.09

I have struggled with this issue, especially in light of the "lust for results" prohibition in Chaos Magick. The solution as I see it is contained in the essence of chaos magick, specifically assuming various belief systems and identities in a rather random fashion. Actually doing this work is both fun and challenges the concrete "self", which I think you mean by ego. The idea of self becomes kind of like the clothes you wear as opposed to your essence.

harmonic series

04:51 / 14.05.09

(In Alice and Wonderland, Alice says, "I knew who I was when I woke up this morning, but I'm sure I must have changed several times since then.")

Ah, the id. Yes, Freud believed that the id was the source of all base desires (probably one could relate it to Malkuth...) but of course, the id heavily influences the ego. But really, these are completely unprovable theories- aren't they?

Actually doing this work is both fun and challenges the concrete "self", which I think you mean by ego. This statement more accurately reflects my vision of ego- the expression of the self.

I like the idea of purposefully adopting personae for different rituals. Should one choose based on the pantheon? Can gender be changed? But we still need a core self.

So I guess my revised question is, how do you separate your core self from your adopted one?

Also, in relation to this- I've been thinking a lot about "glamour" as, in the fashion and image sense, it really is about the creation of a spell. Shiny things (diamonds, sequins) to distract- fake colored hair, plastic surgery, synthetic materials... an effective facade! But how does that image wash off? By grounding yourself with people who know you- writings you keep, a mantra that can be chanted?

Also, I feel it must be important, in order to protect oneself, to have a well defined ego before trying any astral projection. Has anyone found this to be true?

17:09 / 16.05.09

I find myself (which one? you ask. Search me. Or me's) asking whether I need to postulate a 'core self.' The issues raised by my previous sentence illustrate the usefulness of an habitual self-image for everyday purposes such as getting a life, communicating with people and staying sane, but if I start assuming a 'core self' I can rapidly descend into transcendentalism, somewhere I don't wish to go.

Instead, riffing on a theme from Alan Watts, I suggest that we can no more identify ourselves than our teeth can bite themselves, our eyes can see themelves (without mirrors, smartarse) or our hand can grip itself. Self does not constitute a reflexive understanding, and therefore nothing gleaned from our understanding can be said about it. It remains the subject, not the object, of discussion.

Removal of our various misapprehensions of the self constitutes a major task of enlightenment in most traditions. Techniques such as vipassana meditation or other 'here-and-now' practices seem helpful in pulling the wool back from our eyes.

17:13 / 16.05.09

Now magical work, in my experience, tends me in the opposite direction. I take full advantage of my presence in a time-bound dualistic experience of the world to make it more to my liking or to learn to get on with it more skilfully. Selfs emerge more or less according to context, giving the lie to theories of personality that assert a *permanent* or *real* personality or self.

07:04 / 18.05.09

A sure way to shed the parts that are not really part of your own being is meditation. Just sit, with eyes closed or half open and for a while watch the thoughts, sensations and feelings as they come, change and go away again. Sooner or later you might realize, that there is only one constant unchanging factor, the watching awareness. And it is apart from the changing factors, so you might realize that the thoughts, sensations and feelings aren´t your true being at all.
And I confess that this is not based on my experiences, since I rarely meditate. But if you still want to give this a try you can read about Paramahansa Yogananda, Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta Maharaj. Those three make the most sense to me, where self realization is concerned.

And would you please explain, why you would choose magic to find enlightenment? To me, that looks to be heading in the wrong direction. To become aware of that ultimate consciousness the nondual worldviews (Buddhism, Taoism, Advaita, Yoga, for example) seem to be more practical.

Magic seems to be more about self improvement. Wasn´t Crowley for example in the end a mystic with his hga and the great work?

17:12 / 18.05.09

Indeed, mistoffelees, magicians call the acquisition of the knowledge and conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel and its consequences 'The Great Work of Magick.' Crowley himself did so, and regarded such invocations as intrinsically magical acts.

Enlightenment does not proceed by 'self-improvement' (= masturbation, according to St. Tyler Durden

), but through a process of *transformation* for which what we normally think of as ourself has only a partial role. The rest depends on that which seems entirely other. At this pont, unfortunately, language breaks down irretrievably, but you indicate with such as Maharshi the sort of direction which has served many a seeker after enlightenment. But if you want to see how HGA work applies to this task (for those who believe in HGA's) I recommend Alan Chapman's book 'Advanced Magick for Beginners' and the website The Baptist's Head, to which he contributes and which has loads of relevant stuff first hand.

17:17 / 18.05.09

In case I failed to make it clear mistoffelees, I agree totally with your suggestion that the non-dual constitutes the most effective path. My own magical work has demonstrated time and again the contingency of the world of duality, like a continual exercise in seeing through the illusion. That's why we do magic on the path to enlightenment, HGA or no HGA.

00:21 / 19.05.09

From a Tantric point of view, magick (visualisation and invocation of diety) assists in clearing the dead wood of attachment, which, to my opinion, leads to non-dual awareness, which leads to further magick. I oppose the idea that simply understanding one's conditioning and egocentric leanings is the end game....rather the beginning.

nyarlathotep's shoe horn

18:00 / 24.05.09

Never underestimate the value of daydreaming.