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His Dark Materials: SPOILERS, and then some

 
  

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Regrettable Juvenilia
15:10 / 05.12.01
Wow.

So, last week I finished The Amber Spyglass, the third and final book of Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials. Deva summed it up pretty nicely: I too felt "bereft" because there's no more of it to read... And also because the ending packs quite an emotional punch.

There's so much I want to talk about this trilogy - because I think it's not only brilliantly written, but also packed full of brilliant ideas, and I won't hesitate for a moment to call it Important - that I almost don't know where to start. I should point out that I do want to discuss a lot of the plot points from the end of the book or thereabout so that people who haven't read any of them should please, please avoid this thread like the plague... don't even look at the bit you can see on the 'Today's Active Topics' page, okay?

Okay. For starters...

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S


Am I alone in wishing that, having lost two fingers and three parents between them, risked life and limb, and literally been to hell and back to help get rid of the Authority and Metatron, and then partly fixed the universe by discovering that they fancy each other rotten, Will and Lyra had told Xaphania to get stuffed with this "never see each other again" lark?

"So you've got rid of the malevolent god figure who told us what to do all the time and caused human misery... only to tell us what to do and cause human misery? You used us discoverng our love in order to save your precious Dust and now you're splitting us up? Well, sod that, we'll find some other way to stop Spectres - we've disobeyed your highly morally ambiguous commands and ideas about the greater good thus far in favour of looking out for the people we care about, and it's worked out every time. No, don't come any close, we've got this knife that can cut anything, remember? Which, incidentally, no way are we destroying, 'cos Will lost two bloody fingers for that..."

I dunno. Part of me understands why it has to end like it does. But another part of me thinks it's very odd that the side of the 'rebel angels', which has been portrayed very ambiguously thus far, suddenly becomes the voice of indisputable reason and authority at the end - or is that the point? Is Pullman saying, rather depressingly, that after the revolution, a new Authority will inevitably take the old one's place?

Your thoughts on this and anything else in these books would be most welcome...
 
 
Cat Chant
11:45 / 06.12.01
Oooh, interesting. I hadn't been struck by that at all, shamefully.

I'm not putting spoiler space in, because I'm hoping your clear warnings in the thread title/first post will do...

I wonder whether some useful thinking around this might come out of the distinction between the 'kingdom' of heaven and the 'republic' of heaven - the 'anarchy' of heaven seems to be unthinkable within the set-up of the trilogy.

You could take in a couple of directions (at least). Firstly, perhaps, the idea that renunciation and sacrifice will still operate in the new world order, but in terms of a localized struggle (the obligation for each to stay in hir own world) rather than a transcendental "escape" to a domain of freedom (whether the Christain heaven or Lord A's Utopia).

On the other hand, I have a lot of the same misgivings as you. The outcome of the 'subtle knife' plot seemed to be a sort of all-encompassing containment gesture, tying up all the trilogy's loose ends by a focus on the knife as technology rather than metaphor - and thus, perhaps, robbing the metaphorical level of some of its complexity by insisting on the knife's *functions* rather than its meanings, and subordinating the openings the knife had made to a single scheme of interpretation. While, of course, literally closing all the openings the knife had made. It felt a bit like an attempt to bar the possibilities the book had created - as if Pullman wanted his readers not to participate any further in the universe(s) he'd made ("No, you can't go through into another world. I know you thought you could while you were reading the books, but the books are finished now.")

I'm sure there's lots more I'll want to say... shall go away and have a think.
 
 
invisible_al
12:54 / 06.12.01
I don't know about the way the knife was handled, its a weapon, its purpose was to cut and injure. Using it to cut holes in the universe never really struck me as a bright idea in the first place.

The dismissal of the 'republic' of heaven's chances did strike me as a tad abrubt though, no it will never succeed as they'll die in 20 years anyway. It does close off the wonderful possibilities Pullman presented, the small glimpses of the worlds he created.

The point of the ending in my head was it was yet another sacrifice by these two to save the world, someone always has to sacrifice greatly so that many might live. Central tentet of the mythology Pullman is working with.

Of course he could just enjoy torturing his readers, which was my first thought.

Oh one thing I've remembered, doesn't one of the rebel angels agree that there is a possibility that Will could learn to travel like they do, in spirit as it were. But this could be just a slim hope for romantics like myself to cling to.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:00 / 06.12.01
quote:Originally posted by invisible_al:
I don't know about the way the knife was handled, its a weapon, its purpose was to cut and injure. Using it to cut holes in the universe never really struck me as a bright idea in the first place.


But the whole point is that it's a subtle knife
- cutting holes in the universe is what it is for (as well as separating the soul from the flesh, etc)
 
 
Cat Chant
13:52 / 06.12.01
quote:Originally posted by invisible_al:
The point of the ending in my head was it was yet another sacrifice by these two to save the world, someone always has to sacrifice greatly so that many might live. Central tentet of the mythology Pullman is working with.


Ooh, yes, I think that's what I meant about the switch from the 'kingdom' to the 'republic'. Formally, a sacrifice is still required for the good of the many: but this is a more worldly, political (for want of a better word) sacrifice - a republican sacrifice - as opposed to the transcendent sacrifice of Our Lord (a 'kingly' sacrifice).

Though I admit this doesn't make it much easier for Lyra and Will.

I loved the way they just killed the Authority unknowingly and almost by accident, by the way - I would have expected a great big set-piece heroic battle there, but once again it was more grounded and on a more human scale than that.
 
 
No star here laces
15:08 / 06.12.01
I dunno, bunch of points here.

Firstly on the knife: myself, I saw it's metaphorical level being not so much about technology, but about avoidance and shortcuts.

The knife effectively allows the wielder to change their worldspace and put themselves at an advantage to all others in that worldspace. But the point of the spectres is that no advantage gained is ever free - I feel this is a comment on the libertarian view of capitalism. We can't all get rich. We can't have the advantages of the knife without condemning someone else to be eaten by the spectres.

Similarly, one's daemon - the inspirational creative force in Pullman's trinity of being (body, soul, daemon) is destroyed and poisoned by trying to live in a world (and therefore a life) that is not your own. The message being that not only are these shortcuts harmful to the world, they are also harmful to the user because they deny an essential part of their being.

But to me the other key thing not yet mentioned in this thread is the Paradise Lost factor. Pullman is specifically aiming to produce an antidote to Paradise Lost. Milton made Adam and Eve's temptation a final one - there was no going back. Pullman, the anti-Milton made his ambiguous - Will and Lyra had fallen, but had the choice whether to become 'pure' again by being apart, or to perpetuate their fall by being together. Milton's choice was an absolutist one - moral right was determined by decree. But Will and Lyra's morals are consequentialist and utilitarian - despite the happiness they 'deserve' they cannot stay together as the consequences of this are unacceptable. Their love is not just for one another but for the whole of creation, in other words.

God, this book is so vast and beautiful in its philosophical scope that I don't even know where to begin in talking about it.

I consider this one of the very few perfect works of fiction I've ever read. I wouldn't seek to change anything about these books, and am unashamedly dogmatic about 'em...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
22:01 / 28.02.02
So, did anyone else in the UK see the documentary on Philip Pullman that was on BBC2 tonight? Pretty good, I thought, although I could have done with it being a couple of hours longer, and that time being entirely composed of the man himself chatting amiably away about life, literature and the meaning of it all… It really ignited my passion for His Dark Materials again, and I’m a little gutted my copies of all three parts of the trilogy are currently on loan to a friend.

Must say I was impressed by the baldness and boldness with which he told the class he was visiting what he thinks – teachers have to tell you to make a plan when you write a story because “it’s in the National Curriculum and otherwise they’ll be put in jail” (privately expressing his horror at such an idea), but actually you don’t need a plan at all; the Church has been responsible for all kinds of atrocities. I had to laugh at the guy trying to ‘defend’ the book’s harsh treatment of organised Christianity by saying “I doubt children who read it would pick up on that” –you’d never get Pullman himself underestimating children’s intelligence like that.

It’s interesting that what he does say himself is that HDM isn’t so much anti-religion as more generally anti-authority… That’s what I got off the trilogy, too – that there’s this immense political and radical charge to it, even though it doesn’t stem from what we think of as political ideas – just some fairly simple and, to this reader, obvious, convictions about humanity, freedom, etc… There’s definitely a strong parallel with some of the strands in – yes! – The Invisibles, the idea of the big, forcible Revolution being an ambiguous thing (somehow necessary yet also doomed to failure and morally flawed), and that the real process of building utopia isn’t setting up a physical kingdom where you make the rules, but practicing simple kindness and compassion to other people.

Now, I have reservations about this idea when it’s used as an excuse to only take an interest in the welfare of those people in one’s immediate social circle, but I don’t think that’s what’s going on here – you look at something like the image of the Authority’s “prison camp” for the dead – bits of which look like nothing so much as refugee detention camps – and you realise that HDM is quite firmly rooted in the idea that beneath an apparently civilised world, there are incalcuable numbers of people being oppressed, out of sight and out of mind… God, the more I think about these books, the more impressed I get.

And, despite what some have said, I feel it never lapses into cant or dogma (because I don’t think Pullman’s a big fan of either), never becomes overly polemical or didactic. As they mentioned in the documentary, the books seem to value the art of storytelling for its own sake very highly, much more so than many ‘adult’ novels. Pullman just happens to believe that the best stories have something worth saying contained in them.

(Although I still want to grill him on what bits of the ending 'mean'...)

They better not screw the films up…
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:49 / 01.03.02
I have a horrid feeling they will find it very hard to find actors of the right age for Will and Lyra who are capable of taking it on...

I've just read a couple of Pullman's other books, the historical Sally Lockhart ones (The Ruby in the Smoke and The Shadow in the North) and they deal with some pretty heavyweight issues too - though not as radical as HDM. The Shadow in the North in particular has some very traumatic episodes, for something which is ostensibly a children's/YA novel (and also some steampunky overtones, I think)... but they seem to be dealing with issues such as feminism and the Cold War as well as referencing lots of Victorian fiction and history. Really extremely complex and as you say, Fly, ripping yarns to boot...
 
 
No star here laces
08:20 / 01.03.02
Oh horror. Please don't let them make films of these. There is no fucking way they can ever get the depth of the book across in a movie. Plus they'll have to pussyfoot round the sex, which will fuck it up too.

Let's go bomb the location.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:39 / 01.03.02
Quite - well, either that or raise the ages of Will and Lyra to fifteen/sixteen-ish (like they did with Lolita...)

I agree... I can't imagine how you'd make a film of the books, even in a trilogy format like LOTR (and since it's the same people, I imagine that's what they'd do) - thing is, LOTR is very grounded in a 'real' physical landscape, which makes it do-able... but how the fuck would they do the mulefa, or the angels, or Iorek, or anything?

But all that's happened is that the rights have been bought, I think, so no need to go and blow anything up yet.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:19 / 01.03.02
Back to the "Amber Spyglass" ending- above and beyond the metaphysics/politics of it all, I remember hearing (before I'd finished the trilogy) an interview with Pullman on Radio 4, in which he said, on being compared with CS Lewis, that he hated the comparison. Lewis was peddling a lie- the kid (is it Andrew? it's a long time since I read them) in "The Magician's Nephew"- his mother's sick, & dying. he crosses over to magical worlds, gets a magical apple, and saves her. Mr Pullman was saying how he despised this kind of narrative- there are no miracle cures. Bad shit will ALWAYS happen, whether you save the world or not. And I think, having done the whole "big happy(ish) ending" in "...Spyglass", a reminder was needed that- yup- there ARE no completely happy endings. Not even in kids' books. Life goes on- for ill as well as for good. Everyone grows up- and that sucks.
(Although, sad as the end may have been, it was the part with the kid on the ice who's had his daemon cut from him which made me cry, and the part where Lyla sends Pantalaemon up the tower and is cut off from him that had me rushing forwards, trying to get past it because it hurt.)
 
 
Pirate Ven Will Teach You To Lambada (The Forbidden Dance)
21:13 / 19.01.03
Having only finished "The Amber Spyglass" roughly a year and a half, two years ago (I have no sense of time), and having more recently been getting the impulse to reread the series (I blame the radio program for sparking that wonderful nostalgia), it's been on my mind a bit the past few days.

The ending... I don't know, it always seemed rushed to me somehow.
As if Pullman was getting nearer and nearer the deadline, then just said, "Fuck this." and ended it all.
Still, I wouldn't change much.
Just either let Asriel's war have meant something, or have Lyra and Will's journey have meant something.
(More emphasis on the latter.)
But not both, because, as was said, there aren't a whole lot of completely happy endings.
Still... It would have been nice if Lyra and/or Will had just told the fallen angel to fuck off.

This thread has really made me want to reread all three now, as I'm sure I missed so much, especially the first couple.
 
 
Pirate Ven Will Teach You To Lambada (The Forbidden Dance)
18:37 / 20.01.03
Afterthought Time:

(I don't think a spoiler warning is necessary if you've gotten this far down the thread.)

Just thought of this (god I'm slow...), but, given the basic premise of the books, wouldn't there be a Lyra and Will copy somewhere that stay (and one who dies, of course...)?
An Asriel who doesn't fall into a bottomless pit?
Hm.
But of course they'd all die eventually anyway, for venturing out of their own worlds.
Yeah, I'm just a romantic.
 
 
straylight
00:44 / 05.02.03
Flyboy, I see what you mean about the ending, but I can't help but think that if Will and Lyra had gotten to stay together it would have felt like a letdown. Not that I wasn't saddened by their parting, but for those amazing books to wrap up with a happy coupling would have seemed - well, I hesitate to say "too easy" given how much trauma they'd already been through, but too obvious from a narrative perspective, I guess. Though I have to admit it's been ages since I finished The Amber Spyglass and I really should be re-reading them all before I start spouting off here. Not to mention that your (intriguingly apt) Invisibles comparison reminds me that I need to re-read that entire series start to finish as soon as humanly possible.

On a random note: one of my favorite things about Pullman is so very small, but I love it all the same: at a signing at one libary conference or another, some overexcited librarian started to tell him what her daemon would be. He listened, and then said, kindly but firmly, "But you don't get to decide what your daemon is. Someone else has to see it in you."

Also, I Was a Rat! is, on a much smaller scale, utterly brilliant. I tend to get in a lot of arguments with people who think children's books are "easy" or who say things like, "Oh, but it's meant for children." Pullman alone is proof of what idiotic statements those are.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:47 / 05.02.03
Woo-hoo! Glad to see this thread resurrected, because I recently got my copies of all three back - have been re-reading bits of The Amber Spyglass again in awe (still don't get the "goes off with the third one" school of thought about HDM, these people are all wrong and may have something wrong with them).

straylight: reading that ending again, I do see completely why the two of them can't be together. I think I was just mildly traumatised at the time... (I found that from the moment Will loses a couple of fingers onwards, reading HDM was like experiencing some kind of emotional/physical crisis... genuine, sweaty-palmed urgency; pumping adrenaline... argh!)

Something I either failed to notice at the time or forgot about and was reminded this time round - the "marzipan as sex" metaphor. This is *surely* supposed to be a direct parralel and rejoinder to the Turkish Delight in CS Lewis' The Magician's Nephew, right? Because in that book, it's all about exotic chocolate = sensual pleasure = SIN... and this is about Pullman not only saying there's no such thing as sin, and sex is great, it's also about him saying that the body and the senses are there for our enjoyment and that this is a deep and magical thing. He really knows his Blake, that man...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:08 / 05.02.03
If you haven't read Pullman's 'Sally Lockhart' series of books: 'Ruby in the Smoke' et al, then you may want to take a look. They don't quite have the... depth of HDM, or the fantastical element/quantum physics/magicky stuff, but are just as well written and as damned well gripping as his later stuff.

(not quite spoilers, more vague thematic hints)

Victorian London, Seances, Opium Dens, sinister master criminals, music halls, east end thugs, immigration, and the legal status of women in the 19th century.

I'm on the 3rd book now, and it puts me in exactly the same place I was when reading HDM, where all I'm really interested in doing at the moemnt is going home and reading what happens next.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
23:51 / 07.05.03
An old story which I missed: Philip Pullman has written a short story about Lyra's Oxford, which is going to be brought out in October with a lot of fancy packaging (I wonder why). BUT the most important thing is this:

the formal continuation of the series, The Book of Dust

I don't quite know whether to be excited by this prospect (presumably it will depict the beginnings of the building of the Republic of Heaven?) or horrified. Some things are just best left alone...
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
02:07 / 08.05.03
Hmm. I'll invariably end up getting it, though probably from Amazon.co.uk (or from a lovely person there who'd like to buy it for me so that it matches the box set I've got without having to pay vastly exorbitant shipping rates), because I suck, but... I think there's a real risk of trainwreck looming ahead...
 
 
ephemerat
15:44 / 18.06.03
the formal continuation of the series, The Book of Dust

That is quite a terrifying thought. The separation of Will and Lyra represented a perfect bitter-sweet real ending for me and nothing can convince me that I might not come across Will on a Midsummer's Day at mid-day, on a certain bench in the Botanic Garden sitting alone.

Perhaps I'd like to find out what happens with Lyra beginning construction of the Republic of Heaven and I'd like to find out more of the underlying concerns that Pullman built into the series but not at the possible destruction or degradation of that image.

Reading this thread has now forced me to borrow The Ruby in the Smoke from my housemate's book collection. Need. More. Pullman.
 
 
lolita nation
15:50 / 18.06.03
I've never read this. But is the title of the second book an allusion to the Donne poem, the Ecstasy? That kinda makes me want to read it.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
16:12 / 18.06.03
The 'subtle knot' part? The themes of the books certainly echo that. Before my father read these, when I mentioned the title to him he said 'Oh, a subtle knife used for separating the soul from the body?' or words to that effect, which is also relevant (though not precisely what Pullman uses it to mean... or is it, actually, in the end? On reflection perhaps it is...).
 
 
DaveBCooper
13:36 / 19.06.03
Just finished this the other week, and REALLY enjoyed it, but... the falling in love bit really soured it for me. Just seemed too convenient and standard-ending.
And I don't need the proposed follow-ups, really... hmm.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:29 / 19.06.03
It's not just "falling in love", though - that makes it sound like some kind of sappy cliche. It's sexual awakening as the beginning of wisdom and a grand mystical experience, rather than a loss of innocence or a fall from grace. It's Pullman's retort to CS Lewis for keeping Susan out of Heaven because she discovered lipstick and boys. Marzipan, not Turkish Delight!
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:44 / 19.06.03
Reading this thread has now forced me to borrow The Ruby in the Smoke from my housemate's book collection. Need. More. Pullman.

I think I've said it before on this thread, but 'Ruby in the Smoke' and the other Sally Lockhart books are also really good - you've got to read them in order though, I thought that the last one, 'Tiger in the Well' had almost as much impact as the ending of 'Amber Spyglass'.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:29 / 19.06.03
It's sexual awakening as the beginning of wisdom and a grand mystical experience, rather than a loss of innocence or a fall from grace.

And it's also exactly where the books fell apart, for me, and for just that reason. Pullman has brought this enormous rhetorical force against a blatant straw man. Does anyone really believe that spirituality and sensuality cannot co-exist, that sex and the sacred have no overlap? Only the most looney religious fundamentalists... and, apprently, Philip Pullman.

Is this what Pullman thinks religious faith is—that it's so tenuous and weak that the believer must keep all pleasures of the flesh at bay lest s/he be overwhelmed? That it's automatically trumped by sexual awakening?

I guess there's still some life in the old cliché that the believer understands the psychology of doubt in a way that the atheist can never understand the psychology of faith. Pullman is railing at a worldview that he misunderstands and misrepresents.

And cut poor old Jack Lewis some slack: he understood the role of ecstasy and sensuality in faith—don't forget, Dionysus himself is one of Aslan's chief attendants, and the Narnia books are full of images of unnecessary mortifications of the flesh being swept aside by the healthy sensuality of Aslan.

Susan's error—her sin, if you will—was less in her emerging sexuality than in her abandoning of the faith she had as a child, in believing (as Pullman does) that faith was a thing for children, to be discarded when one becomes a grown-up. The preponderance of grown-up characters who are in fact assumed into Narnia in the eschaton puts the lie to this notion: Aslan didn't turn his back on Susan—just the opposite.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
22:21 / 19.06.03
Does anyone really believe that spirituality and sensuality cannot co-exist, that sex and the sacred have no overlap? Only the most looney religious fundamentalists... and, apprently, Philip Pullman.

I smell a storm coming, but all I'll say for now is: the overlap of sex and the sacred is what's going on in the very scenes we're discussing in The Amber Spyglass - this is why I mentioned Blake above, because I think the two have similar attitudes towards the sensuality of the body being actually the same thing as the spirituality of the soul...

And also: in my experience of certain wings of the English charismatic church at least (who are not a relatively staid or stuffy denomination), having difficulty reconciling the sexual and the sacred in a way which is not prescriptive was in no way a characteristic solely of "looney... fundamentalists".

I do have time for the idea that Pullman's view/presentation of Christianity is problematic and involves a straw man, I just don't think it's necessarily here. And while Lewis' relationship to sex and sensuality isn't entirely negative, I don't see how you can deny that Susan isn't punished *at least in part* for the lipstick and nylons and boys. Also, where do you get Pullman thinking that faith is just for children from? Depends how you define 'faith', I suppose...
 
 
Jack Fear
22:53 / 19.06.03
I smell a storm coming...

I should bloody well hope so. I adored the first two books, but The Amber Spyglass went, IMHO, so catastrophically off the rails that I'm astonishd at the free ride it's been getting here. I've been biting my tongue for well on a year now, because I didn't want to be Big Nasty Jack pooping on everyone's party as per usual, but now, goddammit, I can no longer be silent!

Admittedly, I'd have to re-read the book in order to argue it more specifically: but all my books are packed away in boxes in preparation for moving house next month, so it make take me a while...

Re Susan: The lipstick and the nylons and the boys are a symptom of the larger reaching towards quote-unquote "adulthood," the rejection of Narnia a "kid's stuff" (and those tendencies were always there in Susan). Lewis was using her as an example of an all-too-common story, a person who leaves their faith because of peer pressure and the drive to appear "sophisticated."

So faith in God is not so much for "children" per se as the naive, the superstitious, the ignorant, the "innocent." Unless ye become as little children, et cetera et cetera. The strong and the wise have no need for God—indeed, it is their right and duty to kill Him.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:10 / 20.06.03
Lewis was using her as an example of an all-too-common story, a person who leaves their faith because of peer pressure and the drive to appear "sophisticated."

An all too common story in sense that it is all too commonly told and heard in the Church. "They're just doing it to be trendy...", etc. Most of the ex-Christians* I've spoken to abandonned or modified their faith(s) for more deep-seated, complicated reasons, but I'm aware enough of the stereotype, which I guess is where I take issue with Lewis. Also, we're going round in circles: yes, Lewis is using Susan's sexuality as "a symptom of the larger reaching towards quote-unquote "adulthood"" - Pullman positions sexuality a far more centrally - as something worthy of awe in itself.

The third book is definitely the one that divides people - now, if only I could remember who else is in the "it's the best one!" camp so I can round them up. Although I'd have a hard time choosing between first and third, actually.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:16 / 20.06.03
Most of the ex-Christians* I've spoken to abandoned or modified their faith(s) for more deep-seated, complicated reasons...

...and for every story like that, I can produce somebody who's told me "I stopped believing in God when I grew up and started thinking for myself," or "I gave up on God: about the same time I gave up on the Easter Bunny." Your mileage may vary and all that.

We may be, as you say, talking in circles.

It seems to me that we may have an underlying difference of interpretation of Pullman's worldview: do you take his worldview to be essentially gnostic—that is, assuming the existence of the Divine, who can be experienced directly through knowledge—or atheistic? In other words, is the work merely anti-Church, or anti-God?

From your remarks, you seem to read him as the former, whereas I tend to see him as the latter: my interpretation is colored, perhaps, from interviews I've read with Pullman where he is outspoken about his own atheism in a way that I found smug and off-putting—in the soundbite version, anyway...

When did you realise that Christianity didn’t convince you? And what was it that gave the game away?

It was the usual questioning that takes place in adolescence. It began to seem impossible to reconcile the creation story with the scientific account. It became increasingly implausible that life continued after the body died. The claims of some religions – the assumption of the Virgin Mary into heaven, the infallibility of the Pope – seemed to me such howling nonsense…

(The rest of that interview is very very good, by the way, and the full conversation reveals that Pullman's thinking is far more multi-faceted and systematic than the soundbite suggests: but although it leaves me feeling slightly more charitable toward the man the work, I'm also exasperated with some of the unexamined assumptions from which Pullman is operating: the man's got some huge blind spots.)

The biggest problem I have with Pullman's view on religion, specifically his rejection thereof—as presented in the books, anyway (more on that in a second)—though it's apparent from the interview that these is that it seems to be based on this neurotic need to understand everything, an unwillingness to surrender and accept a little mystery. This fellow argues it better than I can.

In light of this I find it curious that the books should take such cheap shots, such an obvious straw man approach, when Pullman's own attitudes are far more interesting and complex, and far more full of possibilities.

In any case, I thought that The Amber Spyglass had deeper problems than all that—and they were strcutural flaws, rather than ideological: ultimately it was defeated by its own ambitions—there was simply too much. After the superbly controlled world-building of the first two books, introducing new concepts and playing through their changes, gradually and incrementally widening the scope and the cast of characters, the last book introduced at fistfuls of new concepts willy-nilly—at least four alien species, a host of alternate worlds, dozens of new characters and ideas—and didn't work them through as I would've liked. The pacing was fucked, and a lot of moments that should have been climactic (the death of The Authority, for instance) fell terribly flat.

Am spent now.
 
 
Psycho Doughboy
11:14 / 21.06.03
the formal continuation of the series, The Book of Dust

I'm a bookseller, and I've found a little about this. It's not going to be a direct continuation as such, more of an expansion, containing stories, essays, histories and artifacts about and relating to other characters in the HDM universe. As far as I know it wont contain anything about Will or Lyra. As for Lyras Oxford, that'll be a short story about Lyra (No Will) pluss maps and a postcard of Lyras Oxford, packaged as an artifact from Lyras world.

I've got to come back to this post later 'cos theres so much to say about these wonderfull books, but cirrently I'm at work, selling vast quantities of the new Harry Potter. One thing taht seriously bugs me though, is that the new HDM books are bound to get nowhere near as much as fuss made about them as Potter books when they arrive.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
20:46 / 21.06.03
Thanks for that - very interesting... and might not be too awful, by the sounds of it, but not too essential either. Rather like Tales of Earthsea...

It won't have as much fuss made about it, no, but is likely to get a fair amount of attention in the press, especially the broadsheets - the Guardian lurves Pullman.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
05:15 / 30.08.04
holy hell...i just read the 3 books for the first time this week.

"bereft" is right. To be honest I was bereft at the end of the first book...it was just so comfortable.

My thoughts about the books aren't quite all there at the moment, but i have one plot question...what happened to the Mary Malone tempting Lyra thing? I don't think it ever happened, right? Did I miss something? Play the serpent and all that?

As for the falling in love thing...well, they kind of have to, right? To fulfill the Adam and Eve parallel? And it's obvious from the first book that Dust is related to sexual awakening and the lost of traditional innocence.

Anyway, would love to hear some discussion resurrected on this, since I'm such a late-comer to the books...

I'm in awe...and really really sad. I was honestly welling up when Lyra and Will were sitting in the Botanic Garden....
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
05:26 / 30.08.04
Sorry, read the interview posted above, and feel totally stupid for missing this...it was such a subtle temptation...

"So, your inversion of Paradise Lost is quite different in that, whatever Lord Asriel stands for, what emerges at the end is not in any way the triumph of self-will or self-interest. It’s really quite Stoical…

But of course the Satan figure is Mary Malone, not Lord Asriel, and the temptation is wholly beneficent. She tells her story about how she fell in love, which gives Lyra the clue as to how to express what she’s now beginning to feel about Will, and when it happens they both understand what’s going on and are tempted and they (so to speak) fall – but it’s a fall into grace, towards wisdom, not something that leads to sin, death, misery, hell – and Christianity."
 
 
DavidXBrunt
12:55 / 30.08.04
Just to say that there are some rather lovely adaptations of these books available from the B.B.C.'s audio range. Get them in the Waterstones sale and you'll get the set for £26.

Just about the perfect adaptation, really. Great stuff. Now if only the soundtrack were available.
 
 
Seth
21:03 / 12.03.05
I’ve just finished The Amber Spyglass. A good engaging story which was almost completely ruined – for me – by thoughtless anti-Christian preaching.

Pullman’s on record in interview that his thoughts extend to all authoritarian systems, but the text doesn’t reflect this: it singles out one specific religion and strips it of love, sensuality, art, wisdom and (most tellingly) Christ. All disconfirming examples, all breadth and levels and types and denominations of Christianity are ignored. The church is depicted as dull, ignorant, fanatical, murderous, and bland: an abomination, ruled by a senile and aged demiurge. Pullman sets up some good and currently very popular concepts within a broadly Gnostic story, and then sledgehammers it into a mess of demonising the enemy. Piss poor.

Hmmmm… the way out of the prison camp afterlife is to recount the story of your life to the harpies, and we’re warned in the latter half of the book that it’d better be a full and interesting tale. When you reconcile that with Pullman’s painstakingly established notion that within working rules of his universe Christianity is always a barrier to living a whole and happy life, it’s not a step too far to imagine exactly who will come to populate his vision of hell.

I liked Lee Scoresby, though. His last stand was the best moment of all the books for me. Just a decent, down-to-earth bloke doing what he thought was right, hating that he had to kill and knowing that he was about to die. That spoke to me more than the rest of it put together, which toppled under weight of cheap-shot God-botherer bashing.

I’m off to read Song of Songs…
 
  

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