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I still don't understand "The Crying Game" (contains spoilers)

 
 
Peach Pie
15:55 / 22.01.09


I rewatched the Crying Game last night. I've heard several friends say it's about the consequences of love, and the growth of characters to adapt to love. I saw little evidence of this. The female lead had to lose a true love; the male lead ended up with years in prison, after which he would never be able to live happily with the woman he was giving up his life to serve time for.

Did I miss something?
 
 
Jack Fear
18:11 / 22.01.09
You seem to be missing that the "female lead" is, er, not, exactly—and that it's this biological fact, even more than Fergus's role in the murder of Jody, that is the biggest obstacle to be overcome.
 
 
Benny the Ball
02:13 / 23.01.09
I think this is the barbelith post equivalent of the friends episode when phoebe doesn't watch 'it's a wonderful life' to the end, and thinks it's a downer of a movie...ie not that funny...
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
04:05 / 23.01.09
Heck, I've been unsure that is an actual real thread.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:07 / 23.01.09
We probably need some sort of subject expert to go into the intricacies of this one. Is there anyone here who knows all there is to know about The Crying Game?
 
 
Jack Fear
09:59 / 23.01.09
You could ask the Moon; and if he knows, maybe he'll explain.
 
 
Quantum
13:15 / 23.01.09
You could ask Boy George except he's in the clink serving 15 months for handcuffing a male escort to his bed and chasing him down the street with a chain.
 
 
Quantum
13:15 / 23.01.09
(see how I got the news quote to rhyme there? I should go into poetry, it's a crying shame)
 
 
Peach Pie
11:20 / 24.01.09
You seem to be missing that the "female lead" is, er, not, exactly—and that it's this biological fact, even more than Fergus's role in the murder of Jody, that is the biggest obstacle to be overcome.

Er...Thanks....

Do you think Fergus is in love? Do you think they have any real future together?

Dil is a female in my eyes, because she's female in her mind.
 
 
Char Aina
13:46 / 24.01.09
I re-watched the Crying Game last night. I've heard several friends say it's about the consequences of love, and the growth of characters to adapt to love.

The film is all about consequences, they just aren't positive consequences. Fergus going to jail for Dil is a consequence of his love for her.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:14 / 24.01.09
Do you think Fergus is in love? Do you think they have any real future together?

I think he is if he lets himself be; I think they do if Fergus allows it. And that's the challenge.
 
 
Peach Pie
15:37 / 25.01.09
The film is all about consequences, they just aren't positive consequences. Fergus going to jail for Dil is a consequence of his love for her.


Yes, quite possibly. I still feel sad days after watching it, without knowing quite why.

I think he is if he lets himself be; I think they do if Fergus allows it. And that's the challenge.

One of the things I admired about Dil was she didn't beg him to like her after the big reveal. She only agreed to change anything about herself very reluctantly.

At the end of Neil Jordan's commentary, he comments that the prison ending is probably about the most positive that could be expected, where she can visit her fantasy "knight in shining armor", and he can be visited by a "beautiful vision" who brings him food and cigarettes!

I was upset that Fergus wasn't more accepting of her gender, as it seemed like they'd been through greater challenges and prevailed. BUt to quote the bartender, "Who knows the mysteries of the human heart?"
 
 
Lugue
22:34 / 25.01.09
At the end of Neil Jordan's commentary, he comments that the prison ending is probably about the most positive that could be expected, where she can visit her fantasy "knight in shining armor", and he can be visited by a "beautiful vision" who brings him food and cigarettes!

It's a bit of a sexist set-up, though, isn't it? I don't remember much of Dil in terms of values, of actions (as opposed to emotions and reactions - I think the distinction matters). In fact, I may be wrong, but the first moment where she is seen, is as a performer, isn't it? As a beautiful, alluring woman. This is complicated by the gender-fucking reveal, but the first image of this woman as woman-performing, woman-appealing is ultimately reinforced; this is Dil's success, this is Dil's sucessfully performed function; radical, genderfucking, liminar, yes, but ultimately - if only to an extent - competent female object of desire.

Throughout, the male protagonist (Fergus, is it?) is consistently represented as investigative, as active, as decisive. By the end he is punnished (heroically so?, I don't remember); she supports, she compensates, as love interest. And ultimately, his whole drama as far as allowing himself to love (refering to Jack's post) is the one of a (white) male subject projected onto a rather passive (half-black) transgender body, an image, an interest - not a peer. I don't see that much of finally liberating about "The Crying Game".

On a side note, I thought that sequence where she had to cut her hair and pass as male was bizarrely violent (on purpose, I felt; I'm not accusing, I felt it was nicely done).

I saw the movie years ago though, so there may be a lot I remember incorrectly, or not at all; and I'm sorry that my writing isn't very clear and structured, I'm not used to English by now.
 
 
Peach Pie
16:06 / 26.01.09
It's a bit of a sexist set-up, though, isn't it? I don't remember much of Dil in terms of values, of actions (as opposed to emotions and reactions - I think the distinction matters).

Yes, rather. I liked the way the character of Jody subverted the stereotypical stoic soldier. He giggled at the terrorist's aversion to taking him to the john. He was n't embarrassed to express his emotions and feelings. And yet, you end with this almost fairy tale re-structuring of the relationship between the sexes.

In fact, I may be wrong, but the first moment where she is seen, is as a performer, isn't it? As a beautiful, alluring woman.

Almost... first time in a photograph, second time in a hairdressers' window.

Throughout, the male protagonist (Fergus, is it?) is consistently represented as investigative, as active, as decisive. By the end he is punnished (heroically so?, I don't remember); she supports, she compensates, as love interest. And ultimately, his whole drama as far as allowing himself to love (refering to Jack's post) is the one of a (white) male subject projected onto a rather passive (half-black) transgender body, an image, an interest - not a peer. I don't see that much of finally liberating about "The Crying Game".

Yes, the punishment is a heroic one, and the drama is ultimately within the confines of himself. That's why I find his reaction to Dil's gender slightly depressing. It feels as if he's mistaking his emotional bubble for love.
 
 
Lugue
20:48 / 31.01.09
I liked the way the character of Jody subverted the stereotypical stoic soldier. He giggled at the terrorist's aversion to taking him to the john. He was n't embarrassed to express his emotions and feelings.

Sure, but an alternative model of masculinity lived out through a black chubby body need to go fuck itself and die for Angus' white hero drama to unfold.

Re: first appearance: Oh. So image, image, performance? I think there's something on the gaze to bring to that, but it may be a tremendously pretentious way of phrasing some very simple things, so I'll set it aside. Thank you for the correction.

It feels as if he's mistaking his emotional bubble for love.

This, I don't get. Or rather, I get that you may be phrasing that it all comes down to Angus' drama above anything genuinely interpersonal, but, well, I'm not sure that excludes love. It may just make for an imcomplete love story.

Is it the final fairy tale re-structuring that you mentioned what bothers you, then? Because I understand and agree on the issues with this, but looking back at the first post, I have a hard time understanding what your immediate position was.
 
 
Peach Pie
17:55 / 15.02.09
Hmmm....Do you remember 'into the woods' by sondheim.... There's a perfect fairytale conclusion to the first half, then everything starts to go wrong in the second. That was obviously sondheim's way of giving his characters the chance to authenticate their relationships. But CG first had the fairytale fall apart, then patched it back together in a way which seemed artificial. Am I still contradicting myself?
 
 
elene
20:55 / 15.02.09
It's been a long time, but, for what it's worth, I never thought the film was about love; rather, it's about being bound to ideals and your nature. For Fergus, the armed struggle is the real world, and being a labourer in London is an alternative reality to which Jody magically gives him a key. Jude symbolises the one world and Dil the other. Both are deadly dangerous for Fergus, for each would hold him in thrall to their desires. They represent ideals, and it's in Fergus's nature to be ruled by such things. Why on earth does the frog agree to carry the scorpion over the river?

The first part of the film is obviously based on the short story "Guests of the Nation," by Frank O'Connor. Neil Jordan would have read this story in school, in Ireland, as I did. Bearing that in mind, Jody's being black is quite irrelevant, other than in that it makes Forest Whitaker available.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
04:12 / 20.02.09
I think he is if he lets himself be

What are the chances of him doing that if he's in prison though?
 
 
Lugue
11:37 / 20.02.09
Peach: Hmmm....Do you remember 'into the woods' by sondheim.... There's a perfect fairytale conclusion to the first half, then everything starts to go wrong in the second. That was obviously sondheim's way of giving his characters the chance to authenticate their relationships. But CG first had the fairytale fall apart, then patched it back together in a way which seemed artificial. Am I still contradicting myself?

I don't know that you're contradicting yourself, it's just not clear to me specifically. I don't know anything about a Sondheim, no. But you shouldn't worry too much.


elene: It's been a long time, but, for what it's worth, I never thought the film was about love; rather, it's about being bound to ideals and your nature.

Surely, in the final union of the two, the point would be the power of love to surpass and resolve contradictions and distances in personal ideals and nature?


The first part of the film is obviously based on the short story "Guests of the Nation," by Frank O'Connor. Neil Jordan would have read this story in school, in Ireland, as I did. Bearing that in mind, Jody's being black is quite irrelevant, other than in that it makes Forest Whitaker available.

I don't understand this. Does a reading on him being black depend strictly on whatever source text Jordan was putting into play? I wouldn't defend there's a racist design, conscious engineering: I think it's just an unfortunate final organization of race and of individuals. I don't care about intention, I didn't mention it; the effect stands for me from my viewing position. Coincidences can be coincidences without being harmless.
 
 
elene
20:40 / 21.02.09
Luna, at the end, Dil has Fegus where he can't get away, and he's there because he feels responsible for her, having killed her lover. If that's the sort of union you mean, well, OK. But as to Jodi's colour being a meaningful factor in the story: it's not. A white soldier would do as well, as is clear from the parallels with Guests of the Nation. Nor would he need to be chubby. It's how he reacts to his captivity and his captors that matters. Fergus, the white hero - ha! He's just a sacrificial lamb, taking the blame for everyone else's actions.
 
 
Lugue
01:48 / 28.02.09
The movie isn't, in its internal logic, racist; the story itself, isn’t one on or of racism. This is clear. It just works within unfortunate cultural formulas. I don’t think there’s anything deliberate to the casting; it’s just an unfortunate coincidence, if you will, that this doomed hearty accepting figure, a figure, the figure, of empathy and sympathy (in fact, practically divinized in the characters’ imaginations – the good consciousness himself; good old Jody, am I misremembering?) is played out through a “black chubby body”.

But it’s a convenient, acceptable enough coincidence: I want you to reverse the terms and imagine the probability of production and viability of a movie where a white man dies and is in effect near-to substituted by a black man in a relationship – or approximation thereof, or complication thereof – to a biracial woman, and, more specifically, one that is physically further distant from usual models of representation for a main character. If you rate it high, then I just don’t know how to get my position across to you.

I don't, didn't, mean to suggest that The Crying Game is an hyper-conservative text that simply mimics conventional strucutres of racial or gender relations in an entirely untransformed way (I may have in stating things too simplistically, in terms like "union" and "hero" which, unqualified, don't fit), nor that it means to. It doesn't, and I appreciate it for it; I think it's playing in more complex ground than usual.

What I do feel is that it's very much marked by them: that ultimately, a white male body and experience are primary, and a biracial woman ends up in an odd fatal/tragic attraction object position. That whatever manoveurs it has towards a different and more plural play and understanding of these issues it undercut by the ways in which, unintentionally I believe, it frames and finally reestructures them in very conventional terms.

I get the feeling there’s something condescending to this “First-name, allow me to explain” construction of yours; I hope I’m wrong, but if I’m not, please, don’t.
 
  
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