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Diana Wynne-Jones rocks harder than J.K. Rowling.

 
 
Mordant Carnival
20:45 / 19.11.01
Discuss.

[ 20-11-2001: Message edited by: Kit-Cat Club ]
 
 
Cat Chant
09:28 / 20.11.01
Yes, she does. QED.
 
 
grant
09:28 / 20.11.01
Gimme titles. I got a Potter-mad kid here who needs diverting.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:28 / 20.11.01
Charmed Life
The Lives of Christopher Chant
Archer's Goon
The Ogre Downstairs
The Magicians of Caprona
Howl's Moving Castle
Power of Three
The Homeward Bounders
The Time of the Ghost
Witch Week
The Dark Lord of Derkholm
A Tale of Time City

And many others, but those are my best ones (though I haven't read that whole Crown of Dalemark set yet, am saving it for a very rainy day).

Of course she rocks harder than J. K. Rowling...
doesn't everyone know that?

[ 20-11-2001: Message edited by: Kit-Cat Club ]
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
09:28 / 20.11.01
Yeah, but Philip Pullman and Susan Cooper could take the pair of 'em, tag-team style...

[ 20-11-2001: Message edited by: Black John Bonnie the Stoat ]
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:25 / 20.11.01
Oh yeah?

Coom on...

(ahem: just trying to kickstart a healthy debate)
 
 
grant
13:41 / 20.11.01
Mmmm. Susan Cooper. I'll have to look her up some more....
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:42 / 20.11.01
Did anyone else ever read Seaward?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:39 / 20.11.01
At the risk of over-discussing:

Susan Cooper's 'Dark Is Rising' was great. The other books in the cycle were not as great, and her note at the beginning of 'The Grey King' that she had not invented him was, er alarming.

I did like 'Silver on the Tree', though. The whole cycle is not recommended night time readings for those of a nervous disposition, however: I did get nightmares. Probably still would.
 
 
Ria
17:05 / 20.11.01
funny. I just finished her Tough Guide to Fantasyland as research. I reccomend it to anybody aiming to write genre fantasy especially if like me you don't feel like slogging through the kinds of books you plan to deconstruct.

I really like her Fire and Hemlock, one of the best unknown fantasies ever. that would make a fine movie.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:38 / 21.11.01
Actually I thought that The Grey King and Greenwitch were just as effective as the other two - perhaps because there's less about the Old Ones etc in them, and they seem more primal (rather like Alan Garner's The Owl Service, which is terrifying). Over Sea, Under Stone is the weakest for my money...

It's a shame that the paperbacks available at the moment have such bad jacket illustrations.
 
 
Cat Chant
07:38 / 21.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Nick:
At the risk of over-discussing:

Susan Cooper's 'Dark Is Rising' was great. The other books in the cycle were not as great


What, the ones with female characters in?
 
 
Ria
17:47 / 21.11.01
Kit-Cat Club, thanx for mentioning Alan Garner. Red Shift did things with writing and by extension with thinking about life that I had not known of before.

The Owl Service did not have a comparable effect but reading his essay "Inner Time" in his book The Voice that Thunders and the anthology Explorations of the Marvellous sure did.
 
 
Mordant Carnival
18:03 / 22.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Mordant Carnival:
Discuss.

[ 20-11-2001: Message edited by: Kit-Cat Club ]


How come??? Not getting territorial or anything but whahappen?
 
 
Mordant Carnival
18:08 / 22.11.01
Mmmm, it's a tough contest between Susan Cooper and Diana Wynne-Jones, but I'd have to go with DWJ. She's just more consistantly inventive. She's both good at riffing off mythology (Eight Days Of Luke) as well as coming up with her very own completely out-there ideas (The Ogre Downstairs).
 
 
Cat Chant
20:29 / 22.11.01
Oh, God, not a tough contest at all. DWJ by *miles*. I know I think everyone's a cryptofascist, but I *do* get worried about the idea of a race of superior beings who can play with the heads of those not so privileged by birth, and that puts me off the Dark is Rising books. The Chrestomanci books do, it is true, have wizards/witches and non-witches whose powers are present or not from birth, but the politics around the division of the population into two groups are just more interestingly (and progressively, for want of a better word) done, for my money - partly because in Susan Cooper, the non-Old-Ones are mostly kept in complete ignorance of the way their fate is being decided. At least Chrestomanci has some sort of democratic government remit and transparency.
 
 
Mordant Carnival
09:13 / 23.11.01
Good point. And in the DWJverse you're made to feel that magic brings a shedload of responsibilities, as well as power; nobody really gets a free lunch. Also, in Charmed Life, it's revealed that a person's magic can actually be stolen by another.

Damn... now I want to go and read all those books again...
 
 
Mordant Carnival
09:23 / 23.11.01
quote:Originally posted by grant:
Gimme titles. I got a Potter-mad kid here who needs diverting.


How old's the little dude/dudette? If we're talking eight or nine then Howl's Moving Castle might be a bit beyond them- it's more of a 12-14yo sort of thing. Ditto The Time of the Ghost.

If we are talking 8-9, you might want to give the kid The Ogre Downstairs. Everyone likes that one. 'Sgot a magic chemistry set in it, and stuff. Or maybe Charmed Life, or Archer's Goon.

Fortunately a lot of DWJ's books have been reissued recently to piggyback the Potter phenomenon, so you shouldn't have any trouble finding them.
 
 
mondo a-go-go
09:23 / 23.11.01
rather good susan cooper site here.

i just read the boggart which i'd never come across before. i'd have to say without a doubt that brennan would love it. the dark is rising books should prolly wait till he's about 10 or 11. as should alan garner's weirdstone of brisingamen (now, that gave me nightmares, nick) and moon of gomrath.

but (slight sidetrack here, and please don't let this derail the thread), you should definitely get him some moomin books too.
 
 
Mordant Carnival
17:01 / 23.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Kooky is a bad scamp:
you should definitely get him some moomin books too.


Big up tha Finnland massive!!!
 
 
Cat Chant
09:56 / 24.11.01
Potter-mad kid should also read Dogsbody. Why is everyone ignoring Dogsbody? Girl meets dog (who turns out to be stellar entity banished from realm due to stitch-up by another star) against the turbulent backdrop of the Irish Troubles. Classic kidfic.

(I hope the above summary in itself proves that DWJ rocks harder than JKR.)
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
06:55 / 26.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Mordant Carnival:


How come??? Not getting territorial or anything but whahappen?



Typo in the title. Nothing sinister, I promise...
 
 
Cat Chant
11:51 / 26.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Mordant Carnival:
Good point. And in the DWJverse you're made to feel that magic brings a shedload of responsibilities, as well as power; nobody really gets a free lunch.


I think that's part of the main thing that makes me love DWJ's fantasy so much. I have some serious reservations about the transcendentalized hero-figure of much fantasy - the theme of the hero who is in some (usually naturalized through inborn magical powers or some quasi-genetic quirk) way inherently special, has powers that other men know not of, etc. As people have pointed out to me before, this hero-figure does key into very powerful fantasies (particularly in children, who are monumentally misunderstood, misrepresented and powerless in society and thus perhaps seek to manage these feelings through fantasies of super-powers), and isn't entirely to be discarded.

However, I still feel that the Romantic/fascist focus on the individual hero is politically *extremely* problematic. Trotsky, apparently, condemned individual acts of terrorism on the ground that they contributed to the disempowerment of the proletariat, by fostering the belief that a 'special individual' would come and 'rescue' them and hence obscuring the need for collective action, and action which is sensitive to particular socio-cultural-material-historical circumstances, rather than yer standard "quest narrative" (New Mini Looks For Centre Of Power. Blows It Up. The End.)

Ahem. Anyway, so what I like about DWJ - particularly in comparison to the transcendentalized workings of power and good/evil in JKR - is the way that an individual's particular abilities are contextualized not in terms of some transcendent battle between good and evil, but in terms of a fully realized social world and a world of inter-human relationships. Christopher Chant is, it's true, a rare and powerful nine-lived enchanter (from birth) - but 'The Lives of Christopher Chant' is not about Christopher's heroic, super-powered victory over the forces of evil, but about the way he comes to terms with his abilities and the social constraints placed upon him by them. He is not called to find the magic sword and conquer the Evil Emperor of Doom, but to take up his place as a Government official, negotiating the power dynamic between magical and non-magical citizens. His magic scar does not throb when the Evil One is near. And so forth. DWJ's books seem to me to focus on negotiation, rather than transcendentalization, and I like that.

Hmmm. What do you lot think?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:03 / 26.11.01
I think that reading works well, Deva. You can see it in The Magicians of Caprona, where Angelica and Tonino come to terms with their powers within the familial and civic context. And in Archer's Goon, Howard is actually trying to act against the 'forces of evil', and then it turns out that... well, you know how it turns out.

I had completely forgotten about Dogsbody.
 
 
grant
17:09 / 26.11.01
Moomintrolls, The Boggart, and The Ogre Downstairs, then.

Y'all rock.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:54 / 27.11.01
This is my favourite thread ever because I love Diana Wynne Jones. Fire and Hemlock is a lovely book and while I love Hexwood and all of the Christopher Chant's and Charmed Lives and Spellcoats and I could go on.... Fire and Hemlock is the book that I nicked from the school library on my last day there because it was out of print and I couldn't stand not owning it anymore.

Susan Cooper's OK but she lacks the complexity of Diana WJ in my opinion... ha.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:49 / 02.12.01
If I'd known Moomins were allowed in this discussion, I'd have brought them in earlier... they rock harder than Diana Wynne-Jones, JK Rowling and Susan Cooper all put together. (I bet they could even take Alan Garner, if they put their minds to it.)
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
19:48 / 03.07.07
23-27 Oct [] _BLACK MARIA_ 'ballet+film+electronic music' by Green Box Productions at the Lilian-Baylis Theatre, Sadler's Wells, Islington, London EC1R. Based on the novel by Diana Wynne Jones, who is `supposed to be there after the matinee on the 24th to answer questions, argue with the composer and sign books, and again in the evening. (I think it is all going swimmingly. That is to say, my agent and the Rod Hall Agency are currently in acerbic argument with Green Box about rights. Also the company claim that the book is out of print and HarperCollins say it isn't. And the choreographer wants me to obtain 20 copies for the cast whether the book exists or not. As I say, all go).'

from the latest Ansible.
 
 
Quantum
20:27 / 03.07.07
! wheee!
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:49 / 05.07.07
I'm totally going to see Black Maria on the 24th. Quantum, are you going to be there?
 
 
Dusto
17:33 / 03.10.07
I haven't read the whole thread, but here's my question:

Where does one begin with Diana Wynn Jones? Particularly one who likes Philip Pullman, Susan Cooper, and Garth Nix?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:43 / 03.10.07
Fire and Hemlock, probably, although it does involve one of her recurrent themes - teenaged girls falling in love with older men, who reciprocate. There's a bit of an ick factor. Alternatively, Charmed Life, which is very good fun and introduces one of her best characters, Christopher Chance.

On reflection, why not read the whole thread? It's only 29 posts, although admittedly many of them were of questionable vrtue, but at least lergely brief. Kit-Cat makes some good recommendations, and Cat Chant's lengthy post is useful and interesting, I think.
 
  
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