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DC Comics, broken?

 
  

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My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
12:47 / 06.01.09
hmm. but I was thinking just the opposite, at least with regard to the big events - Final Crisis is a whole bunch of new comics (FC Submit, FC Rogue's Revenge, FC blah blah) whereas Secret Invasion crossover stuff happened (mostly) within comics that were already coming out on their own - New/Mighty Avengers/Initiative, Black Panther, etc.

re: FC, it's cool to see all those red covers together at one end of the shelves, making you wonder what's up, whereas I don't give a shit how the Runaways or whoever end up dealing with the Skrull invasion. on the other hand, it does seem like it might generate interest with someone who wanted to read all the invasion shit and then ends up sticking with Black Panther's comic after the invasion is over. maybe?
 
 
Mario
18:57 / 06.01.09
FC is less like Secret Invasion, and more like Annihilation. Mostly self-contained, with only a couple of ongoings directly related.

It's Apples & Oranges, really. The only thing they have in common is hype.

That being said, the sales charts don't support the "come for the event, stay for the series" idea, for either firm. Sales spike, and then drift back down.

The problem both companies face is that they are fighting for shares of a shrinking pie. And with issue prices increase, that pie is going to shrink faster.

Marvel's approach (so far successful) appears to be to entice new readers with fairly controversial stuff. DC, on the other hand, looks to be trying to bring old readers back to the fold.
 
 
iamus
19:38 / 06.01.09
Grant Morrison is a big seller, so I can understand him having so many key titles, but he's good for little more than cool moments that fill the pages of Wizard (oh, Talia actually has Batman's baby, and a mysterious unidentified fuckwit seeks out Batman - clever!) and seems to have little direction - so he suits the DCU to a tee at the moment.

You've honestly read The Invisibles, The Filth, Flex Mentallo, New X-Men, We3, Seven Soldiers and All-Star Superman and believe that to be the case?

The man by no means shits rainbows but that's ludicrously reductionist.
 
 
Simplist
20:27 / 06.01.09
I'm probably in the distinct minority here in that for the most part I actually enjoy line-wide crossovers much more than individual characters' ongoing titles, which I usually find to be tedious and poorly written exercises in treading narrative water. The big crossovers aren't necessarily any better written, but hey, they're big, bombastic, and star everyone (even the lamest of characters can be fun as part of some ludicrous ensemble). The scale is usually bigger than the biggest action films. They weave in and out of so many sub-narratives that taken as a whole they tend to be disheveled and scattered and on the verge of flying apart into utter nonsensicality, just like real life, man.

Mega-crossovers also address superhero comics' main weakness, the near-fatal insubstantiality of the 22-page monthly installment. Monthly comics aren't even bite-sized, they're 1/4 of an already unsatisfying bite. Even the wordy ones are a ten minute read at most, and given that "monthly" is often an overly generous characterization of their publication frequency, the narrative momentum just isn't there in a way that works for me. With one main book and numerous supporting titles, though, the overall story is much meatier, well-rounded (when the tie-ins actually tie in, that is), and most importantly, appearing in your field of vision often enough that you don't forget it's even going on.

Monthly books can be good, of course, but they have to be sufficiently well written to measure up to at least the minimum standards we expect from a mid-range novel. Crossovers, otoh, are just big dumb fun, so the expectations (mine, at least) can be much lower.
 
 
PatrickMM
20:09 / 07.01.09
I think 52 was the most successful comic in fostering the health of the DCU as a whole. It turned a lot of B and C list characters into viable stars, and made me love the DCU as a whole a lot more. I also think the weekly structure worked perfectly in that case, though it apparently didn't do so well in Trinity and Countdown. The premise of Trinity seems totally flawed, we've got way too many Batman and Superman stories as it is. DC would be smart to just do a weekly comic about general events in the universe, tying into some stories, but also doing its own thing, and focusing more on supporting characters, with only occasional guest shots from the big JLA characters. If they make it clear that what happens here counts, and will factor into the overall development of the universe, it could probably sell some copies.
 
 
Spaniel
14:56 / 08.01.09
Agreed, Iamus. I can see what the nice Lady is getting at, but I disagree pretty strongly. Sadly I think the Lady and I come from different planets in terms of our taste in the funnies
 
 
Spaniel
15:20 / 08.01.09
Not always, though
 
 
Benny the Ball
15:10 / 21.01.09
I picked up a few books this week, looking at some of the Faces of Evil (with Final Crisis still not passed the finishing line, another cross over? - although to be fair this seems more like a theme rather than an actual cross over) comics. Prometheus was pretty well put together, if a little over gory (hands cut off, someone cut in half by a closing portal, someone burned alive, a couple more deaths off panel). I also looked at Solomon Grundy - which just didn't work for me.

I was reading some other boards re: Geoff Johns and Final Crisis, and it seems that a lot of readers out there either come down on the "Geoff Johns can do no wrong, FC sucks, GM is a weirdo" side, or "FC isn't as bad as all that". I don't want to bang on about Mr Johns, I just don't seem to like most of his work - an opinion, simply, of taste. I enjoyed reading his turn on Booster Gold, but those books of his that I've picked up randomly, or at the behest of comic book store owners or other readers, just haven't worked for me. Is there a problem in letting one or a few creators have so much control over so many books? The DCU is fast becoming the Geoff Johns idea of the DCU, with Marvel the Bendis Universe, so does this isolate readers?
 
 
perceval
19:24 / 12.02.09
I tend to be more into individual characters, creators, and books (My favorite run on a recent comic had been Paul Dini's Detective). That said, I'm not liking Marvel because everything is dragged into Joey Q's "vision", which seems to be to take the "hero" out of the superhero. At DC, horrible stuff happens, but the heroes are still heroes, not just folks who aren't quite as rotten as the villains. Say what you will about Morrison, Johns, etc, but they understand that basic concept.

Joey Q could stand to watch a copy of the film version of Iron Man to see what it's all about. Shame that Hollywood gets it more than the people producing Marvel's comics, these days. Or, he could just watch The Dark Knight. Sure, it was a grim, gritty, and bleak film, but it was about maintaining ideals and hope in the face of the darkness and madness of the world. It all comes down to one line: "What were you trying to prove? That, deep down, everyone is as ugly as you? You're alone!" The Joker loses, not because Batman beats him up, but because he was wrong about humanity.

Judging from what he's done to Marvel's "heroes", Joey Q agrees with the Joker.
 
 
rabideyemovement
05:38 / 23.02.09
I strongly favor DC comics over Marvel, but I can see how inaccessible they often are for new readers. For instance to understand Final Crisis, you'd need a rich knowledge of the history of the DCUniverse and all the Crises whence came before. Marvel's Civil War and Secret Invasion took the opportunity to revamp 2nd-tier characters and reintroduce forgotten ones. They picked up plenty of new readers there because they chose a relevant philosophical topic: the political divide. What young person couldn't relate. DC should take a cue from Marvel's successes and try crossover events that resonate with the public. For example, Lex Luthor's presidency... That was a distinct golden era for DC comics history.
 
 
PatrickMM
00:44 / 24.02.09
Only in comics is there this kind of self loathing belief that stories that are extremely complex and challenging are somehow bad and killing the medium. Nobody in TV is saying that The Wire should tone down those interlocking plots and complex developments and do something people can relate to. Final Crisis may not have been perfect, but it was hugely ambitious, challenging and groundbreaking. Yes, it required some DCU background to understand, but I think if you've read Grant's Seven Soldiers and 52, it's perfectly understandable. You don't need 50 years of continuity background to get the story, but you do have to read deeply and do a little bit of work to connect the dots.

Is the general public actually reading Marvel events like Secret Invasion or Civil War? They might get some media coverage, but ultimately isn't the topical premise just a cover for another spin on the same old kind of stories. Final Crisis offered something you could not get anywhere else, it's not a blockbuster movie on paper, it's a comic book through and through, doing what only a comic book can do.
 
 
rabideyemovement
04:03 / 24.02.09
Hmmm... I do agree. Marvel's stories are entertaining, and maybe more human? but DC wins for wit. The treatment the New Gods got in FC could only take a genius to pull off. Compare that to Marvel's weak revival of the Eternals, and that proves your point. But I'd still like to see DC explore their sociopolitical realm a bit more than they show. Marvel's heroes have a history of persecution (Spider-Man, X-Men, Captain America, Civil War) while DC's heroes have always been treated like royalty (save for Checkmate). I think it would be really interesting to see how their own heroes would handle a shift in laws that turned them from gods to criminals overnight.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
14:00 / 24.02.09
Been a while since I've read either, but wouldn't Kingdom Come or Miller's Dark Knight stuff be examples of DC heroes being subject to law?
 
 
grant
16:23 / 24.02.09
Those are both Elseworlds, if that matters. (Well, Dark Knight kind of invented Elseworlds, but still.)

Batman's deal is that he's an unofficial arm of the police department - the Bat Signal, Commissioner Gordon, all that jazz. It goes back to the earliest days of the character.

And I don't know when the earliest issue came out in which Superman visits the White House, but it had to have been early on - he was part of the war effort in WWII. So was Wonder Woman. And, for that matter, the original Seven Soldiers, yeah?

So they've had at least some kind of governmental connection from within 10 years of their origins. They're patriots, at least ostensibly.

Swamp Thing is probably the biggest DC name who is regularly at odds with the law, but he's not exactly a hero.

And here we are at Alan Moore. Right.
 
 
perceval
20:25 / 26.02.09
For the last 25 years, DC has had an older readership than Marvel, because it has produced the more mature series, for the most part. Your average "Hulk smash!" fan isn't going to get into Watchmen, for example, until they're ready for something a bit more challenging. I know one huge Marvel fan right now who is reading Watchmen for the first time, and he's blown away by it. I've suggested Batman Year 1, next. Not that Marvel has never attempted to do what DC has done so well over the last quarter century.

In some ways, it goes back to DC's pulp/detective roots. The emphasis has always been on the mystery that needs solved, and the reader trying to figure out what's going on before the characters do. Marvel's more like a Michael Bay movie (Bad Boys, Armageddon, Transformers), big on the action, lots of visual eye candy, popcorn movies, while DC's more Peter Weir (Witness, Dead Poet's Society, The Truman Show), big blockbusters, but more mature and thoughtful, layered, and character driven.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:41 / 26.02.09
Yes. Captain Nazi is thoughtful, mature, layered and character-driven.
Oy.
 
 
perceval
02:22 / 27.02.09
Wasn't Captain Nazi a Fawcett character that DC inherited when they got the Captain Marvel characters? Nevertheless, WWII comics weren't produced during the last 25 years, the period where DC has produced more mature material than Marvel, and developed an older readership.

I'm just pointing out that DC's roots are in the detective genre, though obviously geared more to younger readers in the 1930s. DC, after all, is short for "Detective Comics".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:17 / 27.02.09
Captain Nazi appeared in, among other recent places, "Villains United", and was a player in Infinite Crisis. Do you mean, then, that only characters created by the DC editorial in the 1930s (when DC comics was actually called "National Allied Comics") have in the last years had this depth and layered quality that Marvel lacks?

Watchmen, by the way, was based on the Charlton comics characters, and not DC-created characters. Just sayin'.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:26 / 27.02.09
Point being, is there an argument for this beyond Watchmen? A coherent one, that is?
 
 
perceval
19:15 / 27.02.09
Sure. There's Miller's Dark Knight Returns and Batman: Year One; Perez's Wonder Woman; Moore's Swamp Thing and The Killing Joke; Gaiman's Black Orchid and Sandman; Morrison's Arkham Asylum; Brubaker's Catwoman; Waid's Kingdom Come; Dini's Detective Comics; just off the top of my head. While I'm not that big on Morrison's Batman, it has plenty of supporters.

Brubaker's current work at Marvel is a really good writer doing the best he can under those editorial mandates, which seem to be to make the heroes just marginally not as bad as people than the villains. Bad things happen to DC's heroes, but they are still HEROES. Can't say the same about Iron Man in recent years, or the current Mutant Mafia Don version of Cyclops ordering murders of everybody. Spider-Man, meanwhile, sells his marriage to the Devil. While humanizing heroes is a good thing, IMO, it IS possible to humanize them and still make them heroes, people you don't WANT to see taken down. Stan & Jack managed that for years.

The closest thing Marvel has had to Watchmen was Squadron Supreme, published during the same period. It was good, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't on Watchmen's level, IMO. Peter David did some great stuff with the Hulk, taking him beyond "Hulk smash!" but all that is long gone.

Marvel and DC just have different target audiences, with DC going for the older reader.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:41 / 27.02.09
Fair enough - but most of your examples above I read in my teens, and that was about the right age. Some of then are jejune, or just a bit useless. What I am looking for is substantiation. What do you have to support your claim that DC has older readers than Marvel? Where are the numbers?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:47 / 27.02.09
Then, of course, there was Justice League: Extreme, and indeed Resurrection Man, Justice League Task Force, the Secret, Manhunter, Max Lord, Wonder Woman killing Max Lord, Superboy pulling people's arms off, other Superboy being a mind-controlled tool of Lex Luthor, Alexander Luthor's criminal empire, Jean Loring murdering Sue Dibney and burning the corpse to cover her tracks, Hal Jordan attempting to destroy the entire universe, Jason Todd killing the arse out of people, Captain Atom's regular dips into dubious military operations...
 
 
Slim
02:50 / 03.03.09
Say what you will about the brilliance of Watchmen- and it is brilliant- I just read the first two issues of the Marvels mini that came out in the 1990s and think that it has more humanity in it than anything DC has ever put out. The vast majority of DC's titles I've read have struck me as utterly cartoonish, unreal superheroes in an unreal world. Marvel, on the other hand, has heroes like Spider-Man and Daredevil that come off as both human and superhuman. I'd much rather read a comic about the insanely-powerful Silver Surfer and his soul-searching struggle for peace, both inner and outer, than one about the insanely-powerful Superman who has all the personality of a block of wood.

DC may have more adult and possibly more intelligent comics like All-Star Superman, Dark Knight Returns, Hellblazer and the Vertigo line, etc. but these comics are the exceptions, not the norm. What it comes down to for me is that Marvel characters, their failures and successes, are simply more appealing than those of DC. This is nothing but a preference on my part...but so is the opinion that DC heroes are more heroic than those of Marvel.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:26 / 03.03.09
I think Watchmen is arguably something of a black swan - it's such a remarkable and unusual piece of work that trying to identify trends off it is going to be a challenge.
 
  

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