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Bible probably not true, says George Bush

 
 
Proinsias
19:13 / 10.12.08
Link

Bush sounding a little more reasonable than I recall hearing before.
I think I would have liked him more if he had mentioned this earlier.

Has he ever aired any views like this before? I was under the impression he was a bit of a fundamentalist but I can't think of any instances I've heard that actually confirm this.
 
 
Mistoffelees
19:29 / 10.12.08
There are people who know how to read and use their brain. And then there are people who believe the bible is literally true. It´s that simple.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:40 / 10.12.08
It's a bit more complicated than that.

As for George Bush's religion - well, it's difficult. The official line is that he is born again, having had a private audience with Billy Graham. Of course if your previous life is scattered with spotty accounts of cocaine use, alcoholism and other badness that your family's money can't quite efface totally, being born again is not a bad idea at all.

However, although he belongs to a church - the United Methodist Church, which he joined after leaving his family's Episcopalian church - he does not go to church. His relationship with God is an almost totally personal one, and so presumably is which parts of the Bible or of Holy Writ more generally he believes, which is revealed to him, again presumably, by divine agency. This isn't as batshit mental as you'd thnk - or at least as uncommon - the low church and the evangelical elements of the Methodist church in the US are pretty big on Jesus being your _personal_ saviour, and the logic can be extended to the idea that you don't need a priest telling you what God wants when God can tell you himself.
 
 
Proinsias
19:48 / 10.12.08
I'm not sure it's that simple.

Mixing money, power and religion makes deciphering beliefs and motivations rather tough.
 
 
Mistoffelees
19:50 / 10.12.08
Sure it´s simple. The Song of Songs is part of the bible and also poetry. Poetry is not to be taken literally and so only parts of the bible could be taken literally, but not the whole book.
 
 
Proinsias
19:51 / 10.12.08
sorry x-post.

Cheers Haus, sounds a lot less batshit mental than what I thought he followed. I think I assumed from the general tolerance of fundamentalist Christianity that he was a subscriber.
 
 
Proinsias
19:54 / 10.12.08
and again

Sure it´s simple. The Song of Songs is part of the bible and also poetry. Poetry is not to be taken literally and so only parts of the bible could be taken literally, but not the whole book.

I see what you're saying but, if saying you take a book literally is going to swing you an election it surely doesn't follow that you can't read or use your brain if you claim to take it literally. Maybe questionable morals but not stupid.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:08 / 10.12.08
There are plenty of people who do not believe that the Bible is literally true who also do not know how to read and use their brain, at least by the standards being applied here. As I say, it's a bit more complicated than that.

Further, the belief in the literal truth of the Bible that you are disproving, Mistoffeles, is a straw man. I think you'll have trouble finding anyone who states that the Bible has no allegory, poetry or metaphor in it. Have you spent much time talking to people who believe the Bible to be true, literally or otherwise? Has anyone told you that the Song of Songs is a word-for-word historical account?
 
 
Mistoffelees
20:31 / 10.12.08
I see what you're saying but, if saying you take a book literally is going to swing you an election it surely doesn't follow that you can't read or use your brain if you claim to take it literally. Maybe questionable morals but not stupid.

How does that clash with what I said? Just because he says he believes it, doesn´t mean, he actually does.
 
 
Mistoffelees
20:34 / 10.12.08
Further, the belief in the literal truth of the Bible that you are disproving, Mistoffeles, is a straw man. I think you'll have trouble finding anyone who states that the Bible has no allegory, poetry or metaphor in it. Have you spent much time talking to people who believe the Bible to be true, literally or otherwise? HAs anyone told you that the Song of Songs is a word-for-word historical account?

How is anything of that relevant concerning whether or not the bible is literally true? It doesn´t matter what these people say or believe. Whatever they may say or believe, doesn´t change that poetry doesn´t equal literal truth.
 
 
dark horse
21:13 / 10.12.08
right on man STRONG TRUTH
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:16 / 10.12.08
Conveniently, the appropriate response is "Jesus Christ".
 
 
Tsuga
21:28 / 10.12.08
I'll bet you're happy about that endorsement, Mist.

It's a bit more complicated than that.
Would you stop saying that? I like things simple. Good. Bad. Pretty. Ugly. Black. White. Ebony. Ivory (don't go throwing in "harmony").
Slightly more seriously- I think that there are people who take the bible totally literally, but in order to avoid the inherent contradictions in doing that, simply ignore the parts that they don't want to acknowledge. Which makes them liars, or hypocrites, deluded, or combinations of those, but there ya go.
From all I've heard, George Bush is a very sincere and deeply devoted Christian, and while he may not take everything in the bible literally, he adheres to the very conservative version of Christianity espoused by most of the fundamentalist evangelicals here, which basically holds the truths of the bible over all else. Again, the truths one adheres to can be cherry-picked, and almost always are.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:25 / 10.12.08
"Take the Bible totally literally" is quite different from "Believe the Bible is a literally factual account at all times". I doubt that anyone would claim that the Song of Songs was historical or literally true, even if they believed that the book of Kings was. This is what I mean - Mistoffeles is setting up an imaginary group to write off.

There may well be people who believe the Bible is in some vague way "true" or "literally true", but who have not read it, or who have not spent much time thinking about what that means.

However, in doctrinal terms you are looking at two basic doctrines. Biblical Inerrability is the belief that the Bible is right about everything. This is the kind of thinking that adds up the ages of everyone in Genesis and uses that to work out how old the planet is, and which then leads to issues like evolution, the fossil record and other such fuckery. To a believer in inerrability, if the Bible says the best cure for a hangover is Juniper berries and yak dung, then so it is. Biblical Infallibility is the belief that the Bible is never wrong when it makes a statement about faith and how to worship, but that it is not necessarily always right about natural history, geography and things of that nature. So, the Bible is like the Pope - it is the authority on practice of faith and matters of faith, but if it, or the Pope, says that Wales is off the coast of Maine you don't have to accept that. Neither of these doctrines would refuse to acknowledge the poetic nature of the Song of Songs, although they might have different opinions about the nature of the narrator.

Not sure where you get that Bush is a sincere Christian - I'd hesitate to take on trust that Bush is a sincere anything. He is certainly in contact with and has made political alliances with the conservative Christian right, who are largely although not inevitably Biblical inerrantists. However, his own evangelical protestantism may be as phony a blue-water positioning from the discreet and chilly Episcopalianism of his father as his Texas rancher schtick is from his father's patrician GOP grandeeism.
 
 
Tsuga
00:02 / 11.12.08
You may well be right about his sincerity. As I said, "from all I've heard" he is sincere. Many of those sources seemed very credible. It may well be an act, I don't know.
You say:
There may well be people who believe the Bile is in some vague way "true" or "literally true", but who have not read it, or who have not spent much time thinking about what that means.
That's about all I was saying about literalism. When you talk about biblical infallibility or inerrability, I think that's going to be much farther than the vast majority of Christians ever delve into the tenets of their respective faiths. You make a valid point, I'm just saying I wasn't really talking about that. I'm not making much of a point here. I don't think most Christians have read Song of Songs. I'm not sure what Mistletoffelees is getting at, but I may not be paying attention.
All of my knowledge of Catholicism as a child was the Baltimore Catechism, what the nuns told me at school, and what the priests talked about at church that I actually listened to. At my church, they didn't get into such things beyond "the pope is infallible, which means he can't be wrong". At my high school, I actually had a really good class with a great priest, one of critical analysis of the Old Testament, where we actually looked at the scriptures in context, something I'd never done before. It actually had me interested. That class got me to learn more about my religion, but if I had not taken it and still had faith, my faith might be similar to that of the rest of my family, just accepting and unreflective. Maybe not, I don't know. But I think there are alot more people with faith like my family than there are those who really study their faith.
 
 
Mistoffelees
10:06 / 11.12.08
Where did I say the bible can´t be literally true to a certain extent? Maybe what happened to Adam, Job and Noah really happened. Maybe 90 % of the Bible´s content is literally true. I just pointed out that the book as a whole cannot be literally true for obvious reasons.
 
 
museum in time, tiger in space
13:33 / 11.12.08
Neither of these doctrines would refuse to acknowledge the poetic nature of the Song of Songs, although they might have different opinions about the nature of the narrator.

I don't really know much about this at all, but isn't one of the standard criticisms of biblical inerrancy (apart from all the, you know, scientific stuff) the way it sort of flattens and homogenises what is in many ways a collection of very different texts? I noticed, for example, that this Wikipedia article says:

Inerrancy as a doctrine itself provides no clear hermeneutic for discovering how the literal communications found in prose can be distinguished from the symbolic and metaphorical elements of poetry.
 
 
grant
16:38 / 11.12.08
The Song of Songs actually isn't the best example of the problem, since it declares at the outset that it's a song, and it's clear within the text that its literal, factual content is practically beside the point.

The problem is with things like the Book of Revelation, which is explicitly a dream experienced by John of Patmos in which the world more or less comes to an end. The role of dreams in the Bible is tricky, because they're generally revelations of some true, upcoming event, but told in symbolic language.

In the Old Testament, Joseph's big feat is interpreting the Pharaoh's dreams that warned of famine, and Daniel's parallel feat was interpreting a dream of the King of Babylon. These are explicitly symbolic, and the feat of interpreting these symbols (fat cows for Joseph, a funny statue for Daniel) leads to prosperous new beginnings for the Israelites.

So in something like Revelation, we get a dream without an interpretation. There are a few sub-interpretations within it (yes, symbols are used to represent other symbols), but overall, it leaves it up to the reader to interpret. When Revelation discusses a "lamb-like beast" or a woman riding a creature with 10 heads, it's really up to the reader to decide if this is literally a thing that is small and woolly and a lady on a giant deformed dinosaur, or a wicked person with Christ-like characteristics and a powerful religious organization controlling some kind of bureaucracy with 10 parts, or if it's a kind of allegory for elements of human consciousness or some other kind of thing.

There are similar problems in other books, when it's hard to tell how personal or historical a specific parable is meant to be taken, or how meaningful a description of a prophet's vision of flying wheels is meant to be - a symbol? A literal apparition? A literary device?

And then, once you start spotting literary devices in what seem like histories....
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
20:00 / 11.12.08
Mist said only parts of the bible could be taken literally, but not the whole book then Haus said I think you'll have trouble finding anyone who states that the Bible has no allegory, poetry or metaphor in it, which is a bit of an assumption because the initial point was There are people who know how to read and use their brain. And then there are people who believe the bible is literally true. It's that simple. Well if you can't read and don't realise that the bible contains allegory, poetry or metaphor (or don't know what those words mean) then you end up with people who may believe the bible is literally true. You can't assume that there isn't anyone who thinks the bible isn't true in the entire world so his point isn't completely unfounded. The argument isn't theological, it's about experience of humanity and the assumption that everyone who follows the bible can or has read it is as big as the assumption that was initially made by Mist.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:29 / 11.12.08
I would be interested if Mist's experience of humanity includes many people who cannot read and who believe the Bible to be literally true.
 
 
Tsuga
21:31 / 11.12.08
Sweet Jesus, mine does. Well, not many, but not as few as you'd think.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:04 / 11.12.08
Who cannot read? Who are totally illiterate?
 
 
Tsuga
22:17 / 11.12.08
For reals. They do exist, you know, even in industrialized nations, especially where there's poverty (which I know, you know). I live in the rural Appalachians, and I really do know a number of people who are totally illiterate.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
22:31 / 11.12.08
Types of people I have never met thus limiting my human experience and possibly making me doubt their existence if I believed that primary sources were the only sources of experience: people who voted for George W Bush, people with MS, anyone who is a nuclear scientist, anyone who owns a pet snake. I still take it as read that all of these people exist somewhere in the same way that I believe that guns are weapons although I have never seen one used in that way. Does that make me naive? If someone says to me that they believe that there are some people in the world who cannot read and that a proportion of those people believe that the bible is literally true my response is that yes, there probably are some people who think that. I couldn't guess at or confirm numbers or locate them geographically but I couldn't do that with anyone with a pet snake. The idea that our experience of humanity is based purely (or even mainly in the internet age) on people we have met is peculiar to me. Most of the people I have met have been pro-choice and anti-capital punishment but I don't even believe that's representative of the majority of people in the country. So who cares if Mist has met these mythical people? It's not insane to suggest that there are some even if there are 4 of them in the world.

It's not that I necessarily think that Mist's approach to this thread was the right one (the initial 'and' was poor but an easy mistake to make), his first statement was torturously lacking in explanation but your argument isn't hitting the spot for me either especially that last bit.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:36 / 11.12.08
Except that Mist divides the world into those who can read and use their brain, and those who believe the Bible is literally true. My experience of humanity, both personal and mediated, suggests that the world does not divide neatly into these sections, in part because Biblical Literalism is fuzzier and more complex than Mist's idea of it and in part because there are people who believe that in some sense the Bible is literally true who are also able to read.
 
 
Tsuga
22:44 / 11.12.08
By the way, I feel maybe I should point out (not that it's too very relevant to the discussion), out of the people I know who cannot read, three I can think of are real, hardcore, fire-and-brimstone-go-to-church-every-Sunday-grind-the-dust-of-prayer-into-their-repentant-knees types. Of the others, I know most would call themselves "believers", without really going to church or acting very afraid of hell.

edit:kriss-kross there
 
 
Proinsias
23:29 / 16.12.08
It seems that he just keep his views rather quite.

CNN
 
  
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