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New UK sex-work legislation proposals

 
  

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Papess
13:58 / 22.11.08
Thank you for clarifying, Life Critic. I completely misread that as you were in favour of moralizing.

I am in agreement with you. Excellent point about worst case scenarios. Where did you read that passage you quoted?

Controlling it, definitely. Criminalising it, less so.

Control? Perhaps in the way of standards that actually address the real needs of the industry. As it is now, even where sex work isn't criminal there are controls in place that aren't serving the public or the worker.
 
 
Char Aina
13:59 / 22.11.08
Making specific abuses illegal I get. It's making paying for sexual services and being paid for sexual services illegal I don't get.

Do you think there are solid reasons to outlaw paying for or being paid for sexual services?
 
 
Char Aina
14:01 / 22.11.08
Where did you read that passage you quoted?

Offline, unfortunately. I was reading the early drafts of an article that has yet to see online distribution. I can give you the heads up when it does if you like.
 
 
Char Aina
14:18 / 22.11.08
I just heard Jacqui smith on Women's Hour(on radio four) saying that there is no public support for a wholesale ban on paying for sex.

I wonder what that's based on?
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
14:39 / 22.11.08
New Labour generally use focus groups and studies from think tanks to identify public opinion.
 
 
Char Aina
15:12 / 22.11.08
So, do you think there are solid reasons to outlaw paying for or being paid for sexual services?
 
 
Papess
15:34 / 22.11.08
How do you outline promiscuity in law? How do you outline promiscuity 100 years ago- sex when not attempting to conceive a child?

Perhaps sex would have been confined to marriage by law. I don't know for certain how that would be done. Frankly I don't care or subscribe to it. But, I do believe if there really was a will to protect people 100 years ago from sexually transmitted diseases, legislators would have found a way to do so. Nothing would have stopped them.

When someone is paid to have sex every single day with strangers they're more likely to pick up sexually transmitted infections and transmit them to other people.

So, are sexually transmitted infections and diseases transferred through money? Do you actually think a sex worker does business "every single day"? Why wouldn't you consider that a promiscuous isn't just as likely if not more likely, to transmit infection to their partners?

Also, in the case of syphilis, perhaps sailors should have been the ones to bear the cross here, as it's spread is said to have been due to sailors having sex with prostitutes. To protect the public why not create legislation that quarantines sailors, or make it illegal to have sex with sailors, rather than sex workers? Perhaps legislate both if we really want to be completely certain.

However, it is so much easier to blame women - the sex workers, rather than protect them also by informing them of regarding choices in their clientele. Which, would have protected the local population from the transmittal but still allowing for sex workers to continue to stay in business. But health issues weren't the intention in the first place, or else it would have been handled in much more effective manner. Health concerns are used as whitewash to cover up the actual repressive nature of the laws put in place against sex workers.

Basically, if there is an honest will there, and not some hidden agenda, then there is a creation of a way to make it happen. Especially, regarding legislation.

That's still the case now but it's less liable to happen and certainly less likely to kill.

True. Thus the legislation should reflect that, but it doesn't. Why is that? Why is it so "outdated" from the initial mandate that you have suggested if we are mostly beyond the issues of health concerns? Probably because it was never the main concern and is just a scare tactic.

People who work in porn are required to have regular tests for a reason in 2008, to lower the risk of infection among actors.

Right! There is a good example of an industry regulating itself. Why isn't the same thing happening for prostitution?

So I think you're wrong, it wasn't just about morality and if you think it was you need to sit down and think about what is possible now that wasn't in 1908...\

You can think whatever you want about me, but please refrain from telling me what I need to do. I prefer to stand, thank you.

I think if there was a necessity to protect the people from syphilis and other transmitted diseases a 100 years ago then making a promiscuity criminal would have been an obligation, rather than using sex workers as a scapegoats for the indiscretions of the ruling classes.

Just curious, but has there ever been legislation on concubines? That would be interesting to dig up and analyze. Or does legislation regarding sex work only refer to straight up monetary transactions?

[sarcasm] Filthy, naughty, legal tenders.[/sarcasm]

I can give you the heads up when it does if you like.

Please do. That would be awesome, Life Critic.

New Labour generally use focus groups and studies from think tanks to identify public opinion.

I get the feeling there aren't any actual career sex workers in their focus groups and think tanks.
 
 
Char Aina
15:55 / 22.11.08
Yeah. I'd like to hear some specifics.
In my experience a lot more people than none seem to think paying for sex should be illegal, and Smith's claim for a lack of public support seems at odds with that.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
10:18 / 23.11.08
Actually after writing one page of response I've gone ahead and deleted it because I don't care that you were sex worker. I just don't care anymore.
 
 
Char Aina
17:26 / 23.11.08
Do you think there are solid reasons to outlaw paying for or being paid for sexual services? Or is that not something you wish to discuss?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:21 / 23.11.08
He's said it three times. That makes you a bad person.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:38 / 23.11.08
Regarding reasons for, specifically, making it illegal to have sex for money with a person who has been trafficked, or who is being coerced into having sex for money - isn't the clue rather in the question, there? If one is not able to ascertain to the satisfaction of a court that the person you are having sex with for money is not having that money taken away from them by a third party who has in some way limited their freedom or their ability to enjoy the fruits of their labours, then, if it turns out that that is in fact the case, one will be prosecuted. If a person is not being trafficked or pimped, then you don't get charged as if they were. So, the incentive is to be very confident that the person you are about to have sex with is not in such an exploitative relationship.

Where I think the problem comes in is that there isn't a good, robust mechanism at present for establishing that the person you are buying sex from is definitely not being trafficked. If you want to put this sort of thing in place, rather than deciding on making the sex trade blanket illegal or blanket legal, I think you also need something like the HSE or the social services, to go to premises, examine the setup, and provide some sort of certification that a particular establishment or a particular practitioner is not being exploited - effectively, a stamp saying that sex with this person is not going to lead to potential prosecution.

In that context, it's the controlled part of controlled for another's gain that is key. I would imagine that these licensed premises would probably operate something akin to a chambers model - a group of professionals sharing some administrative and property costs.

Of course, running that kind of certification process would cost money, which is where the ability to tax earnings becomes significant, either directly through income taxes or through licensing fees for the certification process.

Would the presence of a certification process - a mechanism to make sex work not just legal but legitimate, in effect, where licensed - make it easier, conceptually, to pursue and prosecute those who are exploiting trafficked or desperate people?
 
 
Papess
02:59 / 24.11.08
"Where I think the problem comes in is that there isn't a good, robust mechanism at present for establishing that the person you are buying sex from is definitely not being trafficked."

Yes Haus, that is one of the major problems, and exactly what others have pointed out about the proposal. Another would be succinctly defining what is meant by "being trafficked" or living off the avails of prostitution. It is an important point because, as I have stated earlier, it could incriminate a sex worker's family, friends, and legitimate business partners.

"If you want to put this sort of thing in place, rather than deciding on making the sex trade blanket illegal or blanket legal, I think you also need something like the HSE or the social services, to go to premises, examine the setup, and provide some sort of certification that a particular establishment or a particular practitioner is not being exploited - effectively, a stamp saying that sex with this person is not going to lead to potential prosecution.

In that context, it's the controlled part of controlled for another's gain that is key. I would imagine that these licensed premises would probably operate something akin to a chambers model - a group of professionals sharing some administrative and property costs."


Reasonable model. It has been done before and is still being done in various parts of the world. Although, not currently used specifically as verification of independence. Also, how would an agency register, or would working with an agency not be an option at all?

"Of course, running that kind of certification process would cost money, which is where the ability to tax earnings becomes significant, either directly through income taxes or through licensing fees for the certification process."

Funding through licensing seems less problematic. Possibly using an existing bureau to administrate. Not that I have anything against paying taxes, but it involves a whole other set of issues. Licensing is used in the erotic dancing aspect of the sex work industry in some of the cities in Canada. The licensing is mostly used to verify citizenship and age of majority. Tthere is a yearly renewal fee of, on average, $250.

There are some more complicated details that would need to be worked out in order to authenticate a sex worker as an independent. There is so much room for fraud, for the likelihood that a sex worker would end up just being coerced into getting a license. However, at least there would be some way to regulate the industry.

Which, leads me to an obvious question: This model has been developed by sex workers and used in similar situations. Then why isn't this model being proposed and developed to create the protection that the government claims to want to provide? The model is a no-brainer, really.

The obvious answer is: It's a catch 22. In order to develop this kind of model the government has to:

a) Accept and legitimize an industry that it's historically denounced, and...

b) Establish an administrative process that accepts the avails of prostitution in return for licensing fees.

Although, if it were to be instated, it wouldn't be the first instance of hypocrisy in government. (Which somehow makes the entire situation even more hypocritical) However, there are also other issues. There are definite moral issues (or perhaps better said as, "issue of moralizing") that prevent legislators from taking any real action to create better working conditions for sex workers. As much as people may want to believe the government is working from a logical position and not some moralizing, religious or political position, it is evident, by the decades, even centuries of ill-considered legislation that this is not the case.
 
 
Char Aina
15:42 / 26.11.08
I read an article today from last weeks Comment is Free, by Laura Agustín.

Some imagine migration involving the sale of sex as fundamentally different, because they view sex as intrinsic to the self and ruined by money. Others view sex as yet another human activity engaged in for all kinds of reasons. What is not realistic is to insist that all migrants who sell sex be either completely forced or completely free.

...


It shouldn't be so difficult to maintain two ideas at the same time: some people prefer selling sex to their other options, no matter where they were born, while some other people find it unbearable.



The whole thing.


And a very much anti-sex work post from Rebecca Mott, a one-time coerced worker:

When anyone defence prostitution as a service, they are defencing men’s right to treat a whole class of women and girls to treated as a dustbin for their pure hatred of all women and girls.

So, if say that it is say it just a service - then don’t have the nerve to call yourself a feminist.
 
 
Char Aina
16:52 / 26.11.08
Yet more opinion, this time from Catherine Stephens;

So it is with the laws being proposed by the Home Office today. Well-intentioned they may be, but they are entirely out of touch with the reality of working in the sex industry, and they would know this if they had chosen to listen to sex workers themselves.

This seems to come up again and again; nobody talks to sex workers about sex work. Clearly I'm overstating, but it seems odd how often it is an issue. If the aim is the welfare of the worker, as is so often claimed, then why do so few folks listen to them?
 
 
Papess
19:55 / 06.12.08
This seems to come up again and again; nobody talks to sex workers about sex work.

Personally, I have an extensive résumé in various aspects of sex work spanning over 20 years. I have also been on the board of directors of a very significant sex workers' non-profit organization in Canada. In any other industry, this would be favourable credentials and a person with that kind of experience and endurance in the industry would carry a a bit of clout. I have dear friends in the business with Masters and PhDs (not in sex work, mind you) and they are not consulted or listened to either. I guess I should not be too surprised when I am not not taken seriously either.

Clearly I'm overstating, but it seems odd how often it is an issue. If the aim is the welfare of the worker, as is so often claimed, then why do so few folks listen to them?

Why do so few folks listen? Gosh, I wonder about that everyday. Maybe people have personal issues. Maybe that in combination with fear of women having such tremendous sexual power and being able to harness that power commercially all for herself. Then to add to that the power to create and control reasonable industry standards that would that empower the female sex worker further...well, that is all too much!

Meh, I don't know. It's probably just personal issues and religious guilt.
 
 
Char Aina
19:25 / 08.12.08
It's certainly not for want of folk to be listened to. Some reading on the subject:

Why Feminists Should Rethink On sex Workers' Rights [PDF]

Deconstructing Sex Work In Order to Construct Feminism
 
 
Ruobhe
14:06 / 20.03.09
Greetings, sharing a BBC article which caught my attention:

Journalistic analisys of the legalization of prostitution.
 
  

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