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The Hyborian Age

 
 
moriarty
13:28 / 07.11.01
"And as of mythic kings our words must speak
Of Conan now, who roves where dreamers seek."
REH by R.H. Barlow.

Judging by the response to the Heroic Fiction collaboration thread and its counterpart in the Conversation, I'm guessing that at least a few of you have a passing knowledge of the works of REH. Me, I'm an absolute freak for the stuff. I've spent years hunting down paperbacks in used bookstores to complete the full run of REH's Conan work, dutifully ignoring the hack work of De Camp and co.

With the previously mentioned threads goading me on, I took another look at the books I have. It turns out that the editors took even more liberties than I thought. Instead of having 21 pure, uncut REH Conan tales, I seem to have only 8. In order to get anymore, I would have to purchase the original magazines which they first appeared in. In the case of four of the stories, I would have to get my hands on the original manuscripts. Damn your eyes, De Camp!

So, make me feel better. Join me in contemplation of our favourite barbarian.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
14:17 / 07.11.01
"Hi my name's Lothar, and I'm an REH Fan."

Moriarty, you may be aware of this but just in case, in the U.K. last year were two editions of (almost) original Howard Conan tales.

they are part of the 'Fantasy Masterworks' series by Millennium publishing and are called
"The Conan Chronicles Part 1: The People of the Black Coast"
and
"The Conan Chronicles Part 2: The Hour of the Dragon"
both edited/collected by Stephen Jones.

There are some typos in the first edition (maybe corrected by now) and some of the stories came from slightly edited sources but Jones has really done his best to honor Howard and has printed them as written when possible. It's the closest and best thing a Howard fan can get until the U.S. copyright is straightened out. Hopefully Wandering Star press will be allowed to do a true Howard collection.

until then you can mail order the Stephen Jones collections through Amazon UK.
 
 
moriarty
02:54 / 11.11.01
Thanks, Lothar. I knew I could count on you. My sword is by your side.

In recent REH news, I not only found a copy of The Blade of Conan to go with my The Spell of Conan (both paperbacks that contain essays from the Conan newsletter, Amra), but, I found this, An REH Purist's Manifesto.

It's nice to know that I'm not alone.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
06:26 / 15.11.01
REH everyone's favorite redneck, oedipal freak, weirdo.

I've got People of the Black Coast and it's alright but I do have a problem with the racism in it. I know that it's infair to judge old writers by our standards today but even so comparing him to Lovecraft (who is often labeled a racist, whereas I feel that although there is racism present in his books that is a product of the time rather than a specific bigotry) REH comes across as horribly racist, much mor so than could be passed off as a product of his time.

Thoughts? Opinions?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
19:17 / 15.11.01
I disaggree with the statement that REH was more racist than acceptable for his time.

Other than the tendency to put pidgin english into the mouths of his black characters he didn't engage in any outright 'demonizing'.

Especially when you read more than just the Conan stories. In a few of the Soloman Kane stories he has strong and sympathetic black protagonists (albeit with bad english) as well as in his more modern day adventure stories.

The only one that made me wince was one that I can't remember the name of right now but it dealt with a slave rebellion during the time preceding the Civil War because so many of the main white characters were violently bigoted. But then, the story wouldn't have worked if they weren't.

I forget whether it was Glenn Lord or another REH editor over the years who said something along the lines of "If Howard was a racist, he was a pretty mild one for his times."

Read more of his stories (especially since some of his non-series stuff is light years ahead of the Conan stories), his published letters to Lovecraft and other contemporaries before making up your mind based on one story. Even then we may never know.

The Robert E. Howard United Press Association as well as The Savage World of Conan has lots of essays on Howard and his writings. Including essays on his potential bigotry.

Also, it was only L. Sprague de Camp that accused REH of being Oedipal. There are at least 3 or 4 other theories as to why REH may have killed himself. Not the least of which being a potential bipolar disorder.

Crom, but I'm a big geek.

[ 15-11-2001: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Mr Tricks
09:20 / 16.11.01
you geek!!!

Now here... BITE!!!



 
 
moriarty
09:20 / 16.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
The only one that made me wince was one that I can't remember the name of right now but it dealt with a slave rebellion during the time preceding the Civil War because so many of the main white characters were violently bigoted. But then, the story wouldn't have worked if they weren't.


Black Canaan?

Yes, Howard was racist. And it showed in his work. But keep in mind that both Howard and Lovecraft grew more tolerant and less ignorant as they aged. Their views could be seen as a reflection of the changing values of the early 20th century. Near the end Howard was placing more people of different races in prominent, heroic roles in his stories although they still had the glimmer of that post Civil War, Texan ignorance. More than anything, though, Howard had an appreciation for those people who were rugged individualists, regardless of race, and he was quite disdainful of "civilization."

[ 16-11-2001: Message edited by: moriarty ]
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
09:20 / 16.11.01
As I have said, I understand the time and how it would be unfair to judge him by our standards so I compared him to Lovecraft (who I have often heard accused of racism above and beyond what was background normal for his time) and I found REH very racist indeed far more so than Lovecraft.

I have not just read one REH story I've read half the Conan stories (chronologicly I think they were the ones written earlier in his career). Now old fashioned though I may be I think a white person all but enslaving a group of black people to use to help collect wealth for him as a protagonist in a story is racist. I could be wrong but the bit that kind of got my stomach churning was some dialogue btween Conan and the pirate queen, suggesting that they had to look out for each other as they were the only two members of the master race surrounded by black people who happened to be there at the time.

Luthar are you sure you're not reading heavily edited versions?

Oedipus? Left his wife for his mother and topped himself when she died. Could be a coincidence I suppose.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
12:21 / 16.11.01
quote:Originally posted by The Redcap's back.:

Luthar are you sure you're not reading heavily edited versions?


Positive. I've worked hard to get the least edited versions that I can. I'm not saying he didn't have some racist tendencies (I agree with Moriarty's statements above) just that they aren't as prevalent as you make them out to be.

As I said, don't base an author's personal philosophy on one story (or even a bunch of them). Conan was meant to be a dastardly anti-hero (by Howard's own words...I'll try and track down the quote later). He wasn't what Howard thought was the pinnacle of nobility or right action.

If you're really interested, read up more on his life in the sources listed above. You might find a new sympathy for his life and potential causes of his suicide.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
12:23 / 16.11.01
quote:Originally posted by PATricky:
you geek!!!

Now here... BITE!!!




I'll have you know I don't bite the heads off of chickens. I like chickens.

I only bite the heads off of live Catfish

Their whiskers tickle going down.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
12:32 / 16.11.01
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one but to be fair I don't have the books on me (I'm at work, they frown upon bringing in heroic fiction to use as refrence works in online discussions...bastards.) and you seem to know a fair but about Howard.

I must admit I will get the second half of the collection eventually (because I'm anal and I want to read the Destroyer and the Westernesque story where he's protecting the homesteaders from the picts, I'll be rooting for the picts). I'll tut my way through what I perceive as the racism.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
13:23 / 16.11.01
quote:Originally posted by The Redcap's back.:

I must admit I will get the second half of the collection eventually (because I'm anal and I want to read the Destroyer and the Westernesque story where he's protecting the homesteaders from the picts, I'll be rooting for the picts). I'll tut my way through what I perceive as the racism.


That's actually a good example of how it's a bit too easy to label something based on a few stories. In "Beyond the Black River" the Picts are seen as savages and the homesteaders are seen (not entirely - especially by Conan even though he works for the Aquilonian colonialists) as the 'good guys'. But then the entire Bran Mak Morn series of stories are from the Picts point of view post-Hyborian age during the Roman occupation. And even though they are doomed to failure they are some of the most heroic, passionate, and noble of Howard's characters.

In his real life (documented in many letters) Howard loved and was fascinated by the Picts historically as well as mythically and Bran is quite the heroic as well as tragic character.

But just by reading 'Beyond the Black River' or 'Wolves beyond the Border' you would think that Howard thought them an inferior race.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
14:08 / 16.11.01
quote:Originally posted by moriarty:


Black Canaan?


Yup. That was the story.

What did you think of Black Canaan?
 
 
moriarty
16:07 / 16.11.01
quote:Originally posted by The Redcap's back.:
Oedipus? Left his wife for his mother and topped himself when she died. Could be a coincidence I suppose.


Never married.

It seems that we're all on the same page, if not the same paragraph. No one's denying that Howard was a little touched. And if the racism in Howard's stories bother you, by all means, don't keep digging around until you find one that's more acceptable.

I really wanted to avoid the Lovecraft/Howard comparison because it's an arguement that is grounded mainly in interpretation, but to me Lovecraft's racsim seemed to be less explicit, but no less offensive. Many of the deformed, inbred races of Lovecraft's fiction could be seen as substitutes for those races he loathed in real life. So while there may not be as many overt bouts of racism in Lovecraft's work, he went a lot further in dehumanizing the targets of his hatred.

Insofar as racism in the Hyborian Age goes, I'd say the dividing line is more between the Hyborians themselves, and those on the outskirts of Hyboria. It's interesting that the greatest adventurer of the Hyborian Age was not a Hyborian himself.

From Beyond the Black River.

"Barbarism is the natural state of mankind. Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always ultimately triumph."

In this he was especially at odds with Lovecraft, who took the opposite stance, as seen in their correspondence. Lovecraft's terror stemmed from a fear and disgust with the other, a mindless, foreign barbarism that would sweep all rational thought from clean, civilized minds. There was no grey area. With Howard, his main character straddled the worlds of both primitivism and civilization, and Howard obviously favoured the primitivism. Again, that's not to say the Howard wasn't racist, just that his racism differs greatly from Lovecraft's, and that of the two I find Howard's to be less dehumanizing.

I'm glad you brought this up, Redcap.

Lothar, I haven't read Black Canaan, just heard about it. I relinquish the Iron Crown of REH Geekiness to you.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
19:36 / 16.11.01
Excellent post Moriarty. Your eloquence in communicating the difference between HPL and REH makes you much more deserving of the crown than me.

I'll just have to wander lands never before seen and forge my own kingdom.

Oh shit. I was raised in civilization. My soul's not nailed to my spine like a barbarian's is.

'A Witch Shall be Born' was a damn fine story wasn't it?
<no, that wasn't really a non sequitor>

[ 16-11-2001: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Mr Tricks
22:40 / 16.11.01
CATFISH!?!?!? Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
 
 
moriarty
04:29 / 17.11.01
Ahem.

"The predecessors of the Sumerians in Howards Hyborian Age were (according to Howard's essay 'The Hyborian Age') a mixture of the Hyrkanians and Shemites."

...and he wore the Crown upon a troubled brow.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
13:34 / 17.11.01
Touche.

I'm the King geek on Barb then. I even have an original copy of GURPS Conan by Steve Jackson Games.

Long live the King.

I think there's a 12 step program for me somewhere.

But you should check out that Savage Conan website I posted above...the forum there has the EMPERORS of Howard geekdom.
 
 
moriarty
09:10 / 18.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
I even have an original copy of GURPS Conan by Steve Jackson Games.


You're not alone. And you never will be.

Have you ever seen the Conan supplements for D and D?

And do you think Redcap or anyone reading this has just written off everything I've said previous to this post?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:44 / 19.11.01
quote:Originally posted by moriarty:


You're not alone. And you never will be.

Have you ever seen the Conan supplements for D and D?

And do you think Redcap or anyone reading this has just written off everything I've said previous to this post?


Nah. We're all some sort of geek underneath our cool rebel exteriors.

I don't own any of the D&D Conan stuff but I do remember it coming out way back when.

Was any of it any good?

I also liked the solo Conan modules that SJG put out.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
23:35 / 19.11.01
So, in response to one of the points in Moriarty's original post let's talk a bit about the characters and the stories, not just the author.

What is it about Heroic fiction that entertains and inspires whether it be pulp stuff or more modern (David Gemmell's writing for example)?

How many people like both 'fairy' fantasy (a dergatory term used by major heroic fiction fans to label most post-Tolkein 'epic fantasy') and Heroic fantasy?

and finally, while Conan is REH's most popular creation, is he your favorite?

Why do I suddenly feel that Moriarty and I are the only ones going to be engaging in this discussion?
 
 
grant
13:40 / 20.11.01
It seems like tolkien was more interested in groups (and individual spokespersons for groups) interacting, while howard was more into individuals standing out against groups.

That might be the difference between the genres.
 
 
grant
15:20 / 01.02.02
From today's UFO Roundup:

quote:1932: SLOUCHING TOWARDS VALHALLA
Rio Grande City, Texas is a small town on the USA-Mexico border, about 180 miles (300 kilometers) south of San Antonio and 60 miles (100 kilometers) west of Brownsville. Nowadays it's famous for citrus fruits, duty-free shops and maquiladoras. Yet Rio Grande City is famous for something else, as well.

It's the birthplace of Conan of Cimmeria, the fictional hero of author Robert E. Howard (1906-1936). As to how the brawling, black-haired, blue-eyed Cimmerian came into existence...well, that in itself is an interesting paranormal tale.

In 1931, following a sickly childhood and a succession of briefly-held, low-paying jobs, Robert Ervin Howard was finally starting to come into his own as a writer. He was regularly selling his short fiction to the pulp magazines in New York City and, at age twenty-five, was making almost as much money annually as the banker in his hometown of Cross Plains, Texas.

"The year 1932 proved eventful for Robert Howard, both as a writer and a man. It was in 1932 that he wrote and sold his first Conan story, "The Phoenix on the Sword," which is rated as one of the better stories in the series."

"The new year began inauspiciously. After months of high-speed production, Robert found himself unable to write anything of value. This unsettling drainage of creativity often befalls writers of fiction and results in depression or sheer panic. Looking back on this experience a year later
(in 1933--J.T.), he wrote, '...for months I had been absolutely barren of ideas, completely unable to work up anything sellable.'"

"He decided to take a vacation, and in February 1932 he set forth by bus for San Antonio."

"In San Antonio, he shopped for knives and swords for his collection. He fell in with an East Indian
(a Hindu--J.T.) who had spent most of his life in China. From him Howard learned of the 'ghastly tortures of the Orient.' The man also mentioned that he had seen scores of Chinese Communists beheaded in the open streets."

(Editor's Comment: Apparently Bob's Hindu friend was in Shanghai in April 1927 when Chiang Kaishek's Kuomintang Party broke with their one-time allies, the Chinese Communist Party, and, with the aid of the Triad societies, massacred the Chinese Reds. The big question, of course, is...what brought this fellow to Texas?)

"This Howard reported to (his friend and fellow author Howard Phillips) Lovecraft, adding, 'The mere thought of such a spectacle slightly nauseated me.'"

"From San Antonio, (Robert E.) Howard traveled southward to the Rio Grande Valley, where he experimented with Mexican food and wandered up the valley as far as Rio Grande City...While Howard was enjoying 'tortillas...and Spanish wine' along the Border, the most memorable fictional idea of his life began to form."

One day in February 1932, while taking an after-lunch siesta in Rio Grande City, "Howard dreamed he was sitting by a campfire out on the prairie when out of the darkness stepped a barbarian wearing (black) chain-mail armor and a horned helmet."

By Robert's own account, the entity said, "I am Conan, a Cimmerian. I wish to tell you of my adventures."

Upon awakening, "Howard decided to write a series of prehistoric adventure fantasies, not unlike (his 1929) Kull stories, for such a setting would eliminate the need for accurate historical research."

Unknown to Robert, however, a similar "contact" had already taken place three years earlier, in 1929, in Bucuresti (Bucharest), Romania.

"Awakened from a sound sleep in his apartment," journalist Corneliu "Codreanu was confronted by a glowing entity in knightly armor that identified itself as 'St. Michael the Archangel.'"

The self-styled "archangel" ordered Codreanu to go to Jassy, the site of the Romanian Army's last stand in World War One, and raise a new military force to save the nation. Thus was born the Legion of St. Michael the Archangel, also known as the Iron Guard, which played a key role in the Holocaust during World War Two.

(Editor's Comment: The experiences of REH and Codreanu, along with Antonio Rivera's nighttime visit from a quadruped alien in Barcelona in 1930, certainly qualify this period as "the Era of Strange Contacts.")

"Since Howard was not good at inventing names, he often based personal and place names on historical figures and localities. He liked to assume that ancient and medieval names were derived from those of his imagined prehistoric realms, postulating that the records of the prehistoric civilization had been destroyed by invasion or natural catastrophe, surviving only in myths and legends. He wrote, 'If some cataclysm of nature were to destroy that civilization, remnants of what knowledge and stories of its greatness might well evolve into the fantastic fables that have descended to us.'"

Howard repeatedly hinted at just such a natural catastrophe in prehistory in many of his stories. Consider this passage from the Conan tale A Witch Shall Be Born:

"So thought many," answered the woman who called herself Sakome. "They carried me into the desert to die, damn them. I, a mewling, puling babe whose life was so young it was scarecely the flicker of a candle. And do you know why they bore me forth to die?"

"I--I have heard the story--" faltered Taramis.

Salome laughed fiercely and slapped her bosom. The low-necked tunic left the upper parts of her firm breasts, and between them there shone a curious mark--a crescent, red as blood."

"The mark of the witch!" cried Taramis, recoiling.

"Aye!" Salome's laughter was dagger-edged with hate. "The curse of the kings of Khauran! Aye, they tell the tale in the market places, with wagging beards and rolling eyes, the pious fools! They tell how the first queen of our line had traffic with a foul fiend of darkness and bore him a daughter who lives in foul legendry to this day. And thereafter, in each century, a girl baby was born into the Askhaurian dynasty, with a scarlet half-moon between her breasts, that signified her destiny."

"'Every century a witch shall be born.' So ran the ancient curse. Some were slain at birth, as they sought to slay me. Some walked the earth as witches, proud daughters of Khauran, with the moon of hell burning upon their ivory bosoms. Each was named Salome. I, too, am Salome. It was always Salome, the witch. It will always be Salome, the witch, even when the mountains of ice have roared down from the pole and ground the civilizations to ruin, and a new world has risen from the ashes and dust--even then there shall be Salomes to walk the earth, to trap men's hearts by their sorcery, to dance before the kings of the world, and see the heads of the wise men fall at their pleasure."

Howard wrote an essay entitled "The Hyborian Age" and sent it off to H.P. Lovecraft in Providence, R.I. Lovecraft, "who did not approve of Howard's system of nomenclature, passed the article on to a fan-magazine publishers with a letter:"

"Dear Wollheim,

"Here is something which Two-Gun Bob (HPL's nickname for Howard--J.T.) says he wants forwarded to you for The Phantagraph, and which I hope you'll be able to use. This is really great stuff--Howard has the most magnificent sense of the drama of 'History' of anyone I know...The only flaw in this stuff is R.E.H.'s incurable tendency to devise names too closely resembling actual names of ancient history--names which, for us, have a very different set of associations."

(Editor's Comment: "For us"...right! You and six Oxford dons, HPL!)

"In many cases he does this designedly--on the theory that the familiar names descend from the fabulous realms he describes--but such a design is invalidated by the fact that we clearly know the etymology of many of the historic terms, hence cannot accept the pedigree he suggests. E. Hoffman Price and I have both argued with Two-Gun on this point, but we make no headway whatsoever. The only thing to do is to accept the nomenclature as he gives it, wink at the weak spots, and be damned thankful that we can get such vivid artificial legendry."

But was it "artificial?" The incredible wealth of detail about Hyborian nations, kingdoms, cultures and customs in the Conan stories written exclusively by REH is in a class by itself. Such detail is missing from Howard's earlier Kull stories. There are the usual palace intrigues, plenty of violence, sporadic references to "barbarian" Atlantis and the "elder" mainland kingdoms like Valusia and Commoria, but the depth of detail is not there. It's as if the Kull and Conan stories were written by two different people.

And what are we to make of Howard's stubborn refusal to alter the characters' names, as Lovecraft suggested?

"Howard plunged into the new series. A steady stream of Conan stories began to pour out of his typewriter. In all, Howard completed twenty-one Conan stories, of which seventeen were published in Weird Tales during the remaining four years of his literary career," which ended with his apparent suicide in June 1936.

"Howard made no attempt to tell Conan's history in chronological order. In some stories, he appears as a youth; in others, as a middle-aged man."

In their biography of REH, L. Sprague de Camp, Catherine Crook de Camp and Jane Whittington Griffin, listed the published Conan stories in the sequence of their appearance, showing the white heat in which the Texan author was churning out the saga. Here they are, in order of their appearance:

The Phoenix on the Sword December 1932
The Scarlet Citadel January 1933
The Tower of the Elephant March 1933
Black Colossus June 1933
The Slithering Shadow September 1933
The Pool of the Black One October 1933
Rogues in the House January 1934
Shadows in the Moonlight April 1934
Queen of the Black Coast May 1934
The Devil in Iron August 1934
The People of the Black Circle September 1934
Jewels of Gwahlur March 1935
Beyond the Black River May 1935
Shadows in Zamboula November 1935
The Hour of the Dragon January 1936
Red Nails July 1936

When you consider that The People of the Black Circle, The Hour of the Dragon and Red Nails were full-sized novels serialized over three and four-month periods in Weird Tales, REH completed a staggering amount of fiction during his brief "Conan" period.

"For many months he was so involved with Conan that he sometimes worked the night through. He wrote, 'For weeks I did nothing but write the adventures of Conan. The character took complete possession of my mind and crowded out everything else in the way of story-writing. When I deliberately tried to write something else, I couldn't do it."

(Editor's Comment: It all sounds a bit like automatic writing, doesn't it?)

Three other Conan stories were completed but did not sell. These included The God in the Bowl, The Vale of Lost Women and The Black Stranger. Howard had just begun writing for the Western pulp magazines when his life came to a sudden and tragic end.

Howard had some familiarity with Theosophy. In 1919, his father, Dr. Isaac Mordecai Howard, brought home a copy of Madame Blavatsky's Isis Unveiled, and both his son and wife devoured it. Having some familiarity with the concept of "world-ages," Howard might have discussed it with his mysterious Hindu friend during that February 1932 trip to Rio Grande City. "Racial memory," another pet idea of REH, might have come up in the conversation, as well.

Some of us would like to know more about the mysterious Hindu who befriended Robert E. Howard during his vacation trip to southern Texas. But that is a mystery that remains buried in Rio Grande City.

While researching this article, your editor wondered if there was any sort of paranormal link to Rio Grande City. I did some extra reading and came up with a "possible."

Further up the Rio Grande Valley is an ancient stone ruin in Boquilla Pass, not far from Panther Junction and Hot Springs, Texas. It sits overlooking a millenia-old Native American trail leading north from Mexico. When I saw an old photo of the "stone fort," I had to blink twice. I had seen a structure like this before--in the Andes. The Incas called it a tampu.

What it's doing in the Rio Grande Valley is anybody's guess.

(See Dark Valley Destiny: The Life of Robert E. Howard by L. Sprague de Camp, Catherine Crook de Camp and Jane Whittington Griffin, Bluesky Books Inc., New York, N.Y., 1983, pages 262 to 267; The Mighty Barbarians, edited by Hans Stefan Santesson, Lancer Books, Inc., New York, N.Y., 1969, pages 171 and 172; Fortean Times No. 132 for March 2000, page 50; and Texas: A Guide to the Lone Star State, Hastings House, New York, N.Y., revised edition 1969, page 606.)
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
16:54 / 04.02.02
REH, medium and prophet of the Hyborian Age!

Grant, you find the weirdest and wildest articles out there.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
07:16 / 08.02.02
Originally posted by Moriarty

"Have you ever seen the Conan supplements for D and D?

And do you think Redcap or anyone reading this has just written off everything I've said previous to this post?"

No because if I had the money when I was 12 I would have bought the supplement as well, and if I saw it today I might still.

Just finished reading the Hour of the Dragon collection, so as far as I know I've now read all of Howard's Conan stories.

Originally posted by Lothar

"That's actually a good example of how it's a bit too easy to label something based on a few stories. In "Beyond the Black River" the Picts are seen as savages and the homesteaders are seen (not entirely - especially by Conan even though he works for the Aquilonian colonialists) as the 'good guys'. But then the entire Bran Mak Morn series of stories are from the Picts point of view post-Hyborian age during the Roman occupation. And even though they are doomed to failure they are some of the most heroic, passionate, and noble of Howard's characters.

In his real life (documented in many letters) Howard loved and was fascinated by the Picts historically as well as mythically and Bran is quite the heroic as well as tragic character."

But again in beyond the Black River, although the Picts are white, they are considered to be as bad as non-whites and their is the sentiment that you wouldn't even leave your worst enemy to die at the hands of someone with a darker skin colour than you.

Also the picts in his stories have very little to do with historical picts and come across as thinly veiled native Americans. That said his prejudices do seem to calm a bit as he gets older.

Originally posted by Moriarty

"Many of the deformed, inbred races of Lovecraft's fiction could be seen as substitutes for those races he loathed in real life."

I'm not particularly trying to defend Lovecraft, I'm not that big a fan of his but I'm begining to worry about statements like the above (there was a lot of it going about in discussions about LOTR as well). Whatever Lovecraft meant by these races for the reader to make the connection between supernatural denziens to real life race worries me somewhat.

When you compare both writers to someone like Doyle who was writing even earlier, although racist Doyle doesn't come anywhere as close to Howard, this was what made me thing Howard was over and above norms for his day and age.

Still I think we're missing the main point who'd win a fight between Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser against Conan?

Is their a story about how he actually came to be the King?

Also has anyone seen the TV series? And is their any news of the film? Apparently the geezers who did the Matrix have the rightd for it.

[ 08-02-2002: Message edited by: The resistable rise of Reidcourchie ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
13:25 / 08.02.02
quote:Originally posted by The resistable rise of Reidcourchie:


But again in beyond the Black River, although the Picts are white, they are considered to be as bad as non-whites and their is the sentiment that you wouldn't even leave your worst enemy to die at the hands of someone with a darker skin colour than you.

Also the picts in his stories have very little to do with historical picts and come across as thinly veiled native Americans. That said his prejudices do seem to calm a bit as he gets older.


If you reread my quote I completely agree about their villification in Beyond the Black River. My point was his very different treatment of them in the Bran Mak Morn stories set during the Roman occupation of the British isles.

quote:
When you compare both writers to someone like Doyle who was writing even earlier, although racist Doyle doesn't come anywhere as close to Howard, this was what made me thing Howard was over and above norms for his day and age.


I think that the venues of the respective stories also comes into play and what these writers knew would sell to their audiences and editors.

Howard was no shining beacon of racial equality by any means and you may be right in that he's the biggest bigot of the pulp era. While the *stories* have very strong racist elements, the *man* exhibited different sensibilities in his letters to friends and correspondents. Because of that I find it hard to label him as horrible as you do. Maybe he was just unconcsious of how much racial hate was in him and it poured out in his stories. Maybe he just didn't realize that the stereotypes (ones that definitely sold in the pulps) were as hateful as they were.

quote:
Still I think we're missing the main point who'd win a fight between Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser against Conan?


Depends on whether they drug Conan's wine first.

quote:
Is their a story about how he actually came to be the King?


not by REH. In the Lancer/Ace series 'The Black Stranger' was renamed 'The Treasure of Tranicos' by de Camp who also rewrote a good amount of it. At the end of 'Tranicos' Prospero and Trocero come to take Conan back to Aquilonia to depose the King.

then comes 'Wolves beyond the Border' and 'The Phoenix on the Sword'.

I seem to remember a de Camp novel or story that dealt with the actual usurping but I never read it (a pox on de Camp pastiches) and I don't remember the name off the top of my head.

quote:
Also has anyone seen the TV series?


I thought it sucked. Conan with sidekicks in a Hercules type of world.

quote:
And is their any news of the film? Apparently the geezers who did the Matrix have the rightd for it.



Check out the Savage World of Conan website that I linked to in an above post. They have all the rumors, news, and opinions that you could hope for. They are the true Howard geeks.

So, other than the racist elements, how do you like the stories?
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
13:54 / 08.02.02
I made the mistake of reading them all back to back rather than doing what I usually do with a collection of short stories and dipping in and out of them between novels. I enjoyed it particularly the pict one and the one where there's that settlement founded by an aristocrat on the run froma Nytharlohotep type geezer and then some pirates turn up (yes I know I can't remember the name of it). By the time I got to Hour of the Dragon I was over Conaned.

Genrally I can't pin down his writing style, he doesn't seem to have one, though that may be because the stories went in fictional chronological order, rather than in order they where written. It's formulaic but then what pulp isn't. Got me in a pulpy mood at the moment.

Slaine would kick his arse though.
 
 
moriarty
13:58 / 08.02.02
Big ass spoilers concerning the Conan The King movie here. Of course, there's no way to know if any of this will actually happen in the movie since this is based on a look at the first draft, so they aren't really spoilers.

And damn that guy for stealing my name.

Reid, I agree that the "Lovecraft's hidden racism" smacks of the same thing that was happenign with LOTR, but unlike Tolkien, Lovecraft was very vocal in his xenophobia (though Tolkien could've been too, for all I know. Never liked that guy).

Since the only three pulp writers I'm familiar with are Lovecraft, Howard and Gibson (of the Shadow fame), it's hard for me to compare and contrast racist tendencies, which is something you seem fixated on. What it comes right down to is that so far everyone on this thread has agreed to Howard's racist tendencies. Yet we're still debating the point. Why?

Finally, I have to disagree with both of you concerning the supposed racism of Beyond the Black River. If anything, I think it plays with the idea of racial superiority.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
14:45 / 08.02.02
quote:Originally posted by moriarty:

Finally, I have to disagree with both of you concerning the supposed racism of Beyond the Black River. If anything, I think it plays with the idea of racial superiority.


The whole 'Barbarism will ultimately triumph line'? Yeah, you've got a point, especially since in his essay The Hyborian Age he has the picts eventually winning and wiping over the Hyborian kingdoms, effectively ending the age.

I forgot about that.
 
 
grant
12:04 / 21.02.02
from the latest UFO Roundup:

quote:MORE ON ROBERT E. HOWARD

Rick Lambert writes, "I enjoyed the article about Robert E. Howard and the inspiration for his Conan stories. But did you know that L. Sprague de Camp only quoted a small part of REH's letter? The whole section is much more revealing."
"Here's what REH wrote to his friend and fellow author Clark Ashton Smith in the letter of December 14, 1933: 'While I don't go so far as to believe that stories are inspired by actually existing spirits or powers (though I am rather opposed to flatly denying anything--REH) I have sometimes wondered if it were possible that unrecognized forces of the past or present--or even the future--work through the thought and actions of living men.'"
"'This occurred to me when I was writing the first stories of the Conan series especially. I know that for months I had been absolutely barren of ideas, completely unable to work up anything sellable. Then the man Conan seemed to grow up in my mind without much labor on my part and immediately a stream of stories flowed off my pen—or rather off my typewriter--almost without effort on my part. I did not seem to be creating, but rather relating events that had occurred. Episode crowded upon episode so fast that I could scarecely keep up with them.'"
"'For weeks I did nothing but write of the adventures of Conan. The character took complete possession of my mind and crowded out everything else in the way of story-writing. When I deliberately tried to write something else, I couldn't do it.'"
"'I do not attempt to explain this by esoteric or occult means, but the facts remain. I still write of Conan more powerfully and with more understanding than any of my other characters. But the time will probably come when I will suddenly find myself unable to write convincingly of him at all. This has happened in the past with nearly all my rather numerous characters; suddenly I find myself out of contact with the conception, as if the man himself had been standing at my shoulder directing my efforts, and had suddenly turned and gone away, leaving me to search for another character.'"
"Again thanks for the article." (See UFO Roundup, Volume 7, number 5, "1932: Slouching towards
Valhalla," page 6.)

(Editor's Comment: As a matter of fact, Howard was still "powerfully" writing Conan tales at the time of his tragic death in June 1936. But Rick has a point. Was REH an author? A channeller? Or a little of both? You decide.)

 
  
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