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What do you do...

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

03:17 / 21.10.08

Flippant topic actually goes to a very concerned topic.

I live in a carriage house---don't know if that requires UK to US translation---my flat is the entire top floor. The smaller bottom half is a considerably tinier flat. I had a really ace neighbor when I moved in March (after the tornado, doncha know) but he bought a house out of town so I had no downstairs neighbor(s) until last month. A married couple. I've made repeated overtures to get to know them---dinners at my flat, wine/cheese parties I have every now and again---but no dice. The husband seems very hostile, the wife very polite and sorry. Well, I chalked it up to "I guess, they're not very sociable" until I've had the misfortune to hear some very upsetting things through the floor.

I'm talking the noises of what sounds like abuse. Lots of muffled cussing, some crying, and lots of clamoring about.

I just tried to ask the wife if she wanted to come over and hang out and she looked very apprehensive---the hubby wasn't home---and said no, no, she couldn't. They seem fairly young.

I feel as though if I hear domestic violence I should call the authorities, but I am being told that if I do so, then I risk the abusive party sussing out it was me who reported them and them getting up with me. But I'm sorry, Barbelith, I feel it would be wrong to stand idly by.

What do you think? I don't like thinking of this happening below me. I've said if I were in a relationship like this then I would hope someone would help me.

Please advise. Thanks.

05:32 / 21.10.08

You have to make that call for yourself, unfortunately. I don't think it's likely the person would figure it was you, so much as suspect anyone, and if they're a brutal sort, that can go even worse.

There probably isn't much that you can do, that would go anywhere, except the social gestures to the woman in question.

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

05:36 / 21.10.08

I hate that my options are limited in this respect. I loathe that whilst I am going to live above for the next five months or so I have to be an unwilling party to this horror. The missus seems very polite, but nervous. I've met the hubby twice and he's always very brusque and quick with me.

08:33 / 21.10.08

That sucks, Kali. If it were me I'd try extending a gesture to talk again and, if nothing comes of it, wait for an opportunity to call the po-lice. It's not a good option, but it's an option, and if the husband gets up in your grill, well, send moar cops.

10:04 / 21.10.08

'Lots of muffled cussing, some crying, and lots of clamoring about.' does not actually add up to abuse you know.

My advice is stop being so bloody nosey and self obsessed and get on with your own life.

10:09 / 21.10.08

' If it were me I'd try extending a gesture to talk again and, if nothing comes of it, wait for an opportunity to call the po-lice.'

What the fuck is wrong with you people?!?!! Have you all seriously disappeared that far up your own arses???

trouble at bill

12:21 / 21.10.08

i do think you should be a lot more sure of your facts than the OP suggests you are before intervening.

If it is the case that's there's actual violence then I'm not sure that you want a neighbour feud with a neighbour like that, and I'm not sure what good you speaking to the law would do anyway. Doesn't the victim have to be the complainant (or is US law different?)

At least stay away until certain at any rate...

12:55 / 21.10.08

ghadis, for the record, I find your dismissive tone here distateful. While I do agree that there's no direct evidence of physical abuse, I think it's safe to say that there may be some form of mental abuse taking place based on what Kali's shared with us here. Additionally, Kali has sought advice both here and in RL, which tells me that what she has witnessed has upset her enough that she feels the need to seek advice from a few sources and wants to explore ways she might intervene somehow. It's true that we can't say for sure that the husband in question is definitely kicking the shit out of his wife. But I don't think anyone should have to wait until the wife is getting the shit kicked out of her on the front lawn to intervene. I don't see where ignoring the situation and hoping it'll go away is even an option.

Doesn't the victim have to be the complainant (or is US law different?)

I think, under US law, any neighbor could report a domestic disturbance, but the wife would have to decide whether to press charges once the police arrive.

Kali, I think your best option might be to just be a friend to this woman. Be trustworthy and understanding. Ask her to come over and hang out again. And again. And again. Hopefully, she will and, hopefully, you can glean some more information about what's going on and be better prepared to deal with it if necessary. I'd also suggest you gather information and phone numbers for local women's shelters (in case this woman does need a safe place to go), and maybe ask a counselor at the shelter for advice.

(I hope you're absolutely wrong about what's going on in the rooms below you.)

12:58 / 21.10.08

ghadis: having been around domestic abuse - outright nasty stuff - I can say that as much as it sucks to jump to that heinous conclusion sometimes when there's smoke one needs to address if the house is on fire first and then turn it down to consider if the bagel is being overly roasted in the toaster while cursing one's overly enthusiastic smoke alarm and/or imagination for the fright.

Kali: It is quite reasonable to tell the property management people that there appears to be some ruckus happening downstairs and it is even more reasonable as a neighbor to say 'I suspect the floor is quite thin between us, can you hear everything in my flat when my guests are over?'

Sometimes couples have toxic shitty interactions when they think they are in private. You may want to politely burst their bubble a bit and see what comes of it. It is fully within your rights as a neighbor not to be inflicted with disruptive noise as much as it is theirs to ask the same of you.

Plus as a human in our culture safety does in fact come before privacy. I've had friends who live a consensual BDSM lifestyle asked questions by their concerned neighbors. My pals were very touched that someone gave a shit enough to ask if everything was ok, because for some people it's just not.

13:46 / 21.10.08

'ghadis, for the record, I find your dismissive tone here distateful.'

I find the whole concept of this entire thread distasteful considering the flimsy evidence of domestic abuse that Kali has presented.

' While I do agree that there's no direct evidence of physical abuse, I think it's safe to say that there may be some form of mental abuse taking place based on what Kali's shared with us here.'

And why is it safe to say this. Because they have arguments that sometimes result in tears? Because the wife is polite and a bit shy? Because the husband comes across to Kali as being unfriendly and hostile? Because they don't want to go to her cheese and wine parties?

14:36 / 21.10.08

I refer you to XK's thoughtful and level-headed post above.

14:46 / 21.10.08

I agree with XKs post. I just find it distasteful when people post up details of other peoples lives for Barbelith to collectively discuss without them knowing. It's one thing that has always riled me and for some reason makes me really angry. Not quite sure why. But i apologise to Kali for getting angry and kicking off a bit and calling her nosey and self-obsessed. Sorry about that Kali. I was out of order.

17:59 / 21.10.08

See what happens if you bring the woman cookies.

It's hard to refuse cookies when they come to your door.

People like cookies, whether or not they're being abused or just get into noisy fights.

20:17 / 21.10.08

But i apologise to Kali for getting angry and kicking off a bit

Do you, ahem, find yourself having to apologise for getting angry often, ghadis?

ONLY NICE THINGS

20:30 / 21.10.08

Bill: the victim does not need to press charges for somebody to be charged with domestic violence in the UK. The Crown Prosecution Service determines whether or not to prosecute in cases of assault, domestic or otherwise. The police can arrest somebody on the scene if they feel that they are a danger to themselves or others - if they have a good-faith belief that an assault has been committed and may be committed again if the two people are allowed to remain in the house, they can act on this. This is a change in the law post the Domestic Violence Act 2004, which made common assault (as opposed to aggravated assault, which has a much higher bar) an arrestable offense in the case of domestic violence - whereas now any suspected offense can be grounds for arrest.

There was a poster campaign when the law changed in men's toilets., which seemed a good place, really, essentially saying that your partner's silence was no longer enough to protect you. A good message, on the whole.

ONLY NICE THINGS

20:39 / 21.10.08

Put another way. Triplets, it appears that you have just made a humorous joke about ghadis' propensity to domestic violence. I don't think that this is an appropriate way to comment on his behaviour, in general but particularly in this thread, where the question of what constitutes a clear ground for supposition of and action upon domestic violence.

22:16 / 21.10.08

Yeeeah. That felt a wee bit off, Trips.

Kali, I'd listen to XK and to grant. Both of them have ultimate wisdom in different ways.

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

00:43 / 30.10.08

I'm going to knock and ask nicely if they would like to distribute candy on Friday for the wee Halloweeners.

I would like to believe the best of people, but I do dislike the sharp look the hubby gives me when I smile and say hi as I take out the garbage or grab a quick smoke.

03:37 / 30.10.08

good for you kali.... i hope your keeping a record of this kind of evidence for if and when you talk to the cops.

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

05:03 / 30.10.08

I choose to be nice and smiley but always keeping an ear and eye for anything untoward. Not that I will have the gumption, but...well, I hate to say this, but I think I will know when the time is right.

Gah. Must stop calling myself a coward.