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Nomadic Thread: The Unimaginable

 
 
belbin
23:53 / 27.10.01
This may belong in any of the Spectacle threads and the Head Shop too.

Just finished both volumes of Maus: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atlantis/2671/
In Vol.2, Art agonises about how to portay wartime Auschwitz - a place he can only get to thru documents and other people's memories. The holocaust is one of those events described as difficult to portray well - as being 'Unimaginable'. ]

Now 'unimaginable' is most often trotted out in the blurb of some new book (cf. 'unimaginable' horror - which eventually turns out to be a ghost with no fingernails or something equally ridiculous). But what actually is 'The Unimaginable'?

Is it something we shouldn't try to imagine?
Or something we couldn't try to imagine?
Or something we merely wouldn't try to imagine?

I don't want to get bogged down in the holocaust as a specific example (now is that a couldn't or shouldn't?). But I am interesting on the kinds of limits people believe human creativity has.

Bit vague at the moment but will flesh out soon.
 
 
Sandy Haired Bruce Wayne
03:08 / 28.10.01
If this thread was created via a reading of Maus, shouldn't it begin in the comic book section?

Although, I guess if it's nomadic it shouldn't really matter. I'm just annoyed by the "it's too good to be a comic" viewpoint.
 
 
rizla mission
12:39 / 28.10.01
quote:Originally posted by belbin:

Now 'unimaginable' is most often trotted out in the blurb of some new book (cf. 'unimaginable' horror - which eventually turns out to be a ghost with no fingernails or something equally ridiculous). But what actually is 'The Unimaginable'?

Is it something we shouldn't try to imagine?
Or something we couldn't try to imagine?
Or something we merely wouldn't try to imagine?


I'd go for 'couldn't'.

As soon as I hear the word UNIMAGINABLE, I immediately think of H.P. Lovecraft.

Much of the power of his writing comes from the fact that, rather than 'ghosts with no fingernails', he wanted the concepts and entities at the centre of his horror stories to be COMPLETELY INCOMPREHENSIBLE - things so far beyond the realm of human experience (and particularly the reason n' science paradigm within which the stories are written) that merely catching a glimpse of them leads to madness and death..

At the risk of sounding very, very callous indeed, I wouldn't say that purely human horrors (re, the Holocaust) are strictly speaking 'unimaginable'. I'm sure that any of us, if we dwell on the facts and words and images for long enough, can imagine all too clearly the level of suffering and horror involved.
But obviously, most of us don't spend a great deal of time on such imaginings, simply because they'd be so unpleasant and sickening.
So to avoid the trauma, we say to ourselves The Holocaust = too horrible to think about in great detail. But if we had good reason to, or HAD to, we would. Not UNimaginable as such, but simply painful to imagine.

(um .. I've got a feeling that the argument I've just typed might come over as hugely offensive, for which I apologise. It makes sense to me..)
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:53 / 29.10.01
No, I actually think you're right, Riz, and in fact I think this isn't just an artistic point, but a moral/political/philosophical one - that is to say, the word 'unimaginable' is often used with reference to things like the Holocaust, WW1, Hiroshima, 9/11, because people don't want to believe that such things are not only possible, or rather conceivable, but that they are conceivable by people just like them, or you, or I. Much in the same way that, for example, there have been people in the UK who've liked to think that Nazism "could never happen here". All of which makes these things more likely to happen again...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
07:06 / 31.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Rizla Year Zero:


As soon as I hear the word UNIMAGINABLE, I immediately think of H.P. Lovecraft.



Or Ligotti.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
07:51 / 31.10.01
Hmm, think its pretty dubious that an event of the scale of the Holocaust is 'imaginable' just because it occurred in a 'knowable'/factual human sphere... as opposed to the nightmarish horror of Lovecraft being 'properly' unimagineable?

How do you imagine something on that scale? Can a single human consciousness really create an image of these kind of events that has any meaning?

Will come back to this when i've thought this through more.
 
 
Captain Zoom
15:01 / 04.11.01
Using a word like unimaginable in a work of fiction, or indeed nonfiction, seems to me to be a little oxymoronic.

(Is that a word?)

A story, whether true or not, by it's very nature engages one's imagination. By using a word like this, or "unspeakable" or "indescribable", an author creates something of an imaginative loop. One reads the word and tries to imagine what unimaginable would be like, or tries to describe what undescribable would be like. I myself have done this, being a huge HPL fan. But to many this is the downfall of his style. His rampant use of this kind of technique weakens much of his fiction to the point of self-parody, even in my own opinion every now and then.

Now, having said that, I'm not sure I could come up with a better way of approaching this kind of description. What's a better way of saying "unimaginable horror"? Try as I might, I cannot rationalize what it would have been like to be in the top few floors of the WTC after the first plane hit. I can't. But when it's described (there's an over-used word in this post. Sorry) as unimaginable, I begin trying to imagine it. Is it instinctual reaction to try? Is that why horror that relies on the unseen or unspoken is so effective? Is that why people feel the need to try and convey the depth and enormity (redundant much?) of a tragedy, because something unimaginable is beyond our comprehension? This strikes me as the same sort fo feeling as trying to imagine non-existence. It's unimaginable, eh?

Sorry, that's a little off the original question, but it just sparked something.
In a purely literary context, I'll agree with Rizla. The whole point is it's something we couldn't imagine, perhaps setting it outside the scope of human experience. And perhaps that's why it shouldn't apply to real events, because if someone went through it, then it is indeed imaginable, if only to that person.

Zoom.

[ 04-11-2001: Message edited by: Captain Zoom ]
 
  
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