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Immigration - UK Thread

Our Lady Has Left the Building

07:57 / 07.09.08

I've had a look but almost all the threads I could find seemed to concentrate on the U.S. experience. Over here, despite the fact that two thousand years of immigration and emigration effectively renders the concept of 'true English' or Scottish or Welsh a nonsense xenophobia and racism lie under the surface and, thanks to most of the media and then Governments running after them to try and get votes we now have a resurgent facist far-right. While they all apeear to be morons that doesn't seem to matter, few people care what is said in Local or National Government so it seems that their existence is enough to encourage more people to vote for them.

Anyway, slightly off-topic in my first post, as what I really wanted to draw people's attention to was this: The leading Labour rebel, Frank Field, has teamed up with senior Tories to demand a cap on the number of immigrants settling in Britain... A former welfare minister under Tony Blair, Field will join Nicholas Soames, the Tory MP, to call for a huge reduction in the numbers of non-European Union workers who settle permanently in Britain... Together with the pressure group Migrationwatch, Field and his allies will launch the first cross-party parliamentary immigration group. The move has tacit support from at least one government minister... Ministers have consistently dismissed Tory calls for a quota, saying it would make little difference as most migrants come from the EU and have a legal right to stay. But that view is challenged by Migrationwatch, which has found that immigration from the EU will soon balance out. The pressure of immigration in future will come from non-EU countries, including those in Africa and Asia.

I doubt that any Government resistance will crumble under a little pressure from News International, can Brown allow this to go by when if Cameron accepts it (it seems to be more moderate than the Tories 'Are You Thinking What We're Thinking' policy of the last election and he has the popularity that Howard lacked)? When even the BBC have decided to take the anti-immigration position (Yes Newsnight, I'm looking at you), are we looking at the official policy of the next Parliament here?

Anna de Logardiere

10:18 / 07.09.08

No you are not looking at the policy of the next government, you're looking at an ideology that can be exercised by the opposition and pressure groups. That is because the government cannot adequately record the number of international visitors coming in and out of the country because the traffic of visitors is too high. They would have to create an administrative system that worked incredibly efficiently and recorded each individual visa and passport. Then they would need to make a record of when people entered and left the country, people go home to visit when they live abroad. I'm not sure it's physically possible for them to do this because of the number of people involved. The computer system would need to flag up when people overstayed their visa and then how would you find them? The policy would be insanely difficult if not impossible to put into effect giving the media an even more contentious issue to hit them with, if they attempt to institute this policy then they will get into an even worse bind then ever.

They can't say this though because that's a headline too.

Mickosthedickos

10:09 / 08.09.08

There is undoubtably a problem with immigration in Britain, not with immigration itself but the way in which people are integrated within the community. The policy of multi-culturalism has failed, immigrants, especially muslims, in the UK are some of the least integrated in the western world. Many immigrants live in very small areas alongside other immigrants creating ghettos detached from wider society, a situation exacerbated by council housing policy.

I would disagree with a cap on immigration, especially a skills cap at a time when Britain requires low-skilled workers rather than highly educated workers which we are churning out of universities in droves. What i do agree with is the requirement of basic english profficiency, citizenship tests and a more integrated immigrant community. This would help(although sadly not solve) Native-immigrant tensions, immigrant isolationsim and islamic extremism.

10:51 / 08.09.08

There is undoubtably a problem with immigration in Britain, not with immigration itself but the way in which people are integrated within the community.

So, how can we be more welcoming? It sounds like there's a movement in parliament *away* from helping integration, and towards xenophobia and fearmongering.

All Acting Regiment

11:13 / 08.09.08

The policy of multi-culturalism has failed

What do you mean by 'the policy of multiculturalism' and 'failed'?

11:45 / 08.09.08

It sounds like there's a movement in parliament *away* from helping integration, and towards xenophobia and fearmongering.

In fact a minister just rejected calls for a cap on non-EU migrants.

But instead of flinging about accusations of xenophobia, racism and fascism, how about a debate on whether, for example, it would be possible for the UK to have completely open borders at the moment, and if not, what might be a fair and efficient quota system?

12:14 / 08.09.08

What about a points system? Like the one we currently have?

From the Border Agency website-
In order to apply for permanent residence, you will normally first need to show that you have enough knowledge of language and life in the United Kingdom.

Mickosthedickos

14:58 / 09.09.08

What i mean by this is that British ethnic minorities are some of the least integrated in the western world, maybe not the direct cause of multiculturalism but certainly a contributing factor.

Specifically the idea that immigrant communites can live in the same manner as in their homeland alienates them from mainstream culture leading to racial tensions, muslim extremisn, etc

All Acting Regiment

16:16 / 09.09.08

I think that's a little simplistic, given that people don't live in a way, but in ways. No harm comes of eating the food, speaking the language or listening to the music of X-country when one lives in Y-country, for example; certain laws and customs will obviously differ from country to country, and some of them can't be carried over, but it isn't a 'zero-sum game'.

I'd also question which factor produces the most alienation and ghettoisation: leniency towards ways of doing things imported from other countries, or aggression towards people considered to be from other countries.

10:25 / 10.09.08

What about a points system? Like the one we currently have?

The question would then be whether the points systems is framed in such a way as to discriminate against certain categories of applicant, amounting to a de facto cap (as was widely seen to be the case with Australia under John Howard).

On the other hand with the UK economy faltering and public services under strain, I can't see any mainstream party advocating 'open borders'.

Aside from economics, there is also the issue of whether candidates from regions that have been devastated by recent Western foreign policy should have moral precedence.

What do you mean by 'the policy of multiculturalism' and 'failed'?

Saying "multiculturalism has failed" is just begging the question, but there is the thorny problem of how best to manage the demographic change that is occurring, e.g. in inner London and other heavily urbanised areas of the UK without handing propaganda victories to the far right.

One obvious point here would be that if we are to have an expanding UK population, we need to think about supplying affordable housing or reforming the rental sector.