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Sexual Harassment at SDCC

 
 
Axolotl
13:56 / 15.08.08
I don't know how many of you read the comic blogs but Bully Says has raised the issue of sexual harassment at the San Diego Comic Con and asked others to spread the word. I'm not a con-goer so I don't know how wide spread this is but I'm frankly shocked. Well actually not as much shocked, given the issues that some (most?) comic fans seem to have with women, but definitely angry. Is this a wide spread failing, is it a result of the female unfriendly environment that persists among fandom and what can we do to combat it?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
14:47 / 15.08.08
I'm baffled by the idea that any convention center -- let alone convention organizers themselves -- wouldn't have some sort of policy in place regarding personal conduct of people using the center as far as harassment goes. Baffled. Issues of liability alone, even if you don't touch on basic human decency...
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
15:08 / 15.08.08
...wouldn't have some sort of policy in place regarding personal conduct of people using the center as far as harassment goes.

I think that it's assumed. I'm sure there's no official policy in the center's contract about attendee's not taking a dump on the carpet, either, it's just assumed that that behaviour won't be tolerated.

People need to speak up when it comes to harassment otherwise the organizers may be oblivious. Unless there have been complaints prior, who would think of mentioning in advance that certain behaviour will not be tolerated? When you go to a concert there's never any mention of an anti-sexual harassment policy, and I'd bet that there's a lot of anynomous ass-grabbing and other groping going on because some guys are just assholes. It's up to the people in charge to kick people out to protect others on a case-by-case basis.

Whether there's a policy in place or not, if someones being harassed, there should be someone, organizers, security, etc... who could be told who would then be able to throw the jerk(s) out...
 
 
Mario
16:03 / 15.08.08
Looking at the list of incidents, I'd say none of them qualified as "sexual harassment", at least in the strictly legal sense.

Most qualified as minor sexual assaults, though, and should have been treated as such.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:17 / 15.08.08
Do you mean that they did not violate Title 7 of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, Mario? Are you confident that there were further no state laws covering sexual harassment that they infringed? Put another way, what exactly are you seeking to do with that judgement?
 
 
bio k9
23:35 / 16.08.08
Regarding harassment by non-employees (clients, customers, vendors, consultants, independent contractors, and the like), the employer’s ability to police unwelcome conduct may be more limited than with employees. For example, it is easier to investigate and discipline an employee than a customer. The employer still must take reasonable steps to address the situation once the matter comes to its attention.
 
 
Poke it with a stick
10:21 / 17.08.08
So no-one else saw the Open Source Boob Project?

A bad idea run badly gets its comeuppance, basically.
 
 
Neon Snake
10:46 / 17.08.08
I'm not going to read all 1300-odd posts, but everything about that just screams of being seriously and massively wrong, in ways that I can't begin to articulate.
 
 
Never or Now!
14:43 / 17.08.08
Does this constitute "sexual harassment at SDCC," then?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:47 / 17.08.08
I think it's relevant to the question asked in the original post:

Is this a wide spread failing, is it a result of the female unfriendly environment that persists among fandom and what can we do to combat it?

What are your thoughts, Jason?
 
 
Axolotl
16:28 / 18.08.08
This is the thing that worries me most of all - the fact that people are defending these actions or trying to make light of it.
As for whether or not an anti-harrasment policy is just assumed, I'd think if nothing else as an employer the SDCC would have a policy. All the places I've worked have had one, maybe it was tucked away in the employee's handbook but there is one. As Lunch with Lenny says not having one leaves them way open to any legal action.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
18:48 / 18.08.08
Axolotl This is the thing that worries me most of all - the fact that people are defending these actions or trying to make light of it.

Why so surprised? At it's heart the fan community is a bunch of socially-backward emotionally-arrested man-children who have problems dealing with fantasy and reality. And women have Wonder Woman and She-Hulk, so why can't they shut up and let the boys get back to their fantasies of being disciplined by Emma Frost. The community will be able to dissemble and play 'blame the victim' even should the day come when a woman ends up dead.
 
 
Janean Patience
19:05 / 18.08.08
I've never been to a con, but surely something which has for many years mixed semi-naked women with superior numbers of socially dysfunctional men should have developed a sexual harassment policy many years ago? Even if it's "You pinch the model playing Lara Croft on the ass, you're out?"

What experience does anyone have of sexual harassment at cons?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:25 / 18.08.08
Why so surprised? At it's heart the fan community is a bunch of socially-backward emotionally-arrested man-children who have problems dealing with fantasy and reality. And women have Wonder Woman and She-Hulk, so why can't they shut up and let the boys get back to their fantasies of being disciplined by Emma Frost. The community will be able to dissemble and play 'blame the victim' even should the day come when a woman ends up dead.

The problem with this, though, is that it doesn't offer an out. If you are a woman who is interested in science fiction and fantasy, and want to share that interest in a social environment with others, your options become limited to giving up on the idea, only organising in groups of people you already know and trust, or all-women groups, or accepting the possibility that you will be harrassed or assaulted if you go to a con. I'm not sold on con culture myself, but I know people who get a lot out o it, and it sounds pretty awful to say that women just aren't safe and will never be safe.

To address that, changing the culture is one approach. Establishing strong boundaries - and, in fact, the open source boob project provides some hope on that. The bright boy who reported it took a lot of convincing, and was a thorough douchebag during the convincing, but he did eventually take on board that this was not acceptable behaviour, even if he could not be disabused of the notion that the first time it happened it was like Memory of a Free Festival. You don't want to have to spend that much time on every one, but perhaps a degree of momentum can build. One of the things that reassured me, to an extent, was one of the guest authors at that convention, when she found out what had been happening, made it clear that she would not attend a convention where it was on the books, and would push to have anyone trying to set it up expelled from the space. That kind of push from the people who draw attendance in the first place seems to be a vital part of a fightback, along with making venues aware of their responsibilities and conventioneers aware of their rights and responsibilities.

I think it's worth not sectioning off fandom totally, as well. Sexual harassment and the lack of safety in crowds is something that women have to deal with in many, many environments. Fans may seem odder about it, and might be more likely to propose a systematic approach to it on their livejournals, but they are by no means unique.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:18 / 20.08.08
What on earth was the open source boob project?
 
 
Char Aina
14:36 / 20.08.08
There was a link, y'know. You could read it...

Basically, badges and boobs.
Wear a red badge if your answer will probably be no, wear a green one if your answer will probably be yes. Don't wear one if you don't want asked the question at all. The question? Can I touch your boobs.

He thought it was okay because you can always not wear a badge. Funnily enough, it didn't seem to work out quite as he imagined.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:02 / 21.08.08
'If women are wearing sheer tops then they WANT me to look at their breasts, Wonder Woman is a c***, but who are these outsiders coming in to our Con and assaulting folk?'
 
 
Neon Snake
07:10 / 21.08.08
A: At it's heart the fan community is a bunch of socially-backward emotionally-arrested man-children who have problems dealing with fantasy and reality.

and

B: 'If women are wearing sheer tops then they WANT me to look at their breasts, Wonder Woman is a c***, but who are these outsiders coming in to our Con and assaulting folk?'

Seem to sum up the problem, really.

But then, is the guy who wrote B really representative? I mean, who are these leering, arrested man-children? It ain't me, it ain't you either. Or you, or you over there.

Or is just a function of any industry largely geared towards putting a predominantly male audience in an enclosed space with a limited amount of females, some of whom are engaging in dress-up; dressed up as characters who are designed to tittilate, no less?

Why would it be any different, just because the audience are comic-readers? There are two polar-opposite views, one that comic-readers somehow create a safe environment for each other, "all geeks together", that automatically defends against unsavoury behaviour. The other is that they ("we") are more prone to unsavoury behaviour (Well, not us, of course. Or our friends. The other ones. With the beards.)

It seems counterproductive to think that there is any difference between a comic-con and any other convention space. I'd be curious to know what would happan at, eg, a Grand Prix-convention (should one exist) if similar behaviour tool place.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:52 / 21.08.08
Or is it just a function of any industry largely geared towards putting a predominantly male audience in an enclosed space with a limited amount of females, some of whom are engaging in dress-up; dressed up as characters who are designed to tittilate, no less?

It's probably a problem at any event like this, yes. There is something that seems to be sticking in my mind, though, which may be entirely faulty and if it is please say, which is that the sort of men who go to Formula 1 shows or aeroplane exhibitions or whatever might be more 'alpha' types - confident, strong, etc - and thus more likely to have partners already or to be less 'desperate' and thus less likely to be openly sexually agressive (if we read sexual agression as something different to confidence, of course). I don't know, is that just more stereotyping?
 
 
Neon Snake
14:33 / 21.08.08
I don't know, is that just more stereotyping?

I don't know. I honestly don't.

I mean, I've seen a fair few folk in my comic shop that I have automatically pre-judged, as they flick through the latest issue of Jungle Girl, as potentially not likely to have to be fighting off the sexysexyladeez with a stick.

But it's entirely a pre-judgement, a stereotype, and if I were to talk to these gents, I might find them to be, despite appearances, smoother with teh chat than a roller-blading panther from the planet BigBollocks. Same at conventions.

My experience of comic readers is limited to me and a couple of mates, all married. Other than that, it's internet message-boards, which don't exactly attract the cream of humanity.

It's tricky, because there seems to be a sense that the specific people involved are "different" to the "norm", and I just don't one way or the other.
 
 
clever sobriquet
18:41 / 21.08.08
There seems to be something in the mainstreaming of geekdom that, while it broadens the appeal, seems to do so in an aggressive embrace of the least common denominator. From my own experience, this is why I've withdrawn from the local regional geekfest (Dragoncon); the inescapable, voyeuristic heteronormativity is bad enough, but it seems as though the power imbalances between ostensible subjects and objects is worse than mainstream replication. In my own (probably unfair) assessment, I come away with the impression that social outcasts, who do not necessarily have full access to promised power and privilege, attempt to recreate what they perceive to be the external power structures and in doing so are magnifying and further distorting them. In short, I find the sexism/heteronormativity/power inequality to be worse in ever broadening geek circles than in much of the larger (US) social world.

I don't think it was always this bad, and I don't think it's just the jaundiced eye of nostalgia that makes me say so. Locally, at least, it seems to have gotten markedly more pronounced and, it would appear, officially underwritten, within the past 5-10 years. While I've not been to SDCC (wrong coast, not enough cash), I had always held on to the idea that it was a sort of multimedia geek nirvana. It's disillusioning to discover that it's as mortal as the rest of us.
 
 
Axolotl
07:42 / 22.08.08
I don't necessarily know that geekdom is any worse than any other large predominantly male subculture, for example I'd guess car shows would have similar problems, but it does seem to be particularly resistant to acknowledging the problem.
There's a great line in "Snow Crash" where Neal Stephenson talks about the kind of virulent sexism practised by those who "know" they're too clever to be sexist. Could that fit into this whole thing?
Here are a couple of websites seeking to redress this issue.
 
 
Neon Snake
07:59 / 22.08.08
Veering only very slightly off-topic:

From a couple of clicks on from those sites:

The Open Source Swift Kick to the Balls Project (OSSKBP).

Key quote:

Men who are open to being given a swift kick in the balls need do nothing. Women will simply assume that any man not clearly indicating his position vis-a-vis being kicked in the balls with an approved OSSKBP badge or pin is open to being kicked in the balls, as any progressive, free-thinking, feminist man ought to be, by any woman who wishes to do so.

Excellent.



But, yes. Part of the issue seems to be in treating "comic-fans" as if we're different to other groups.
Whilst I fully understand that no-one is attempting to excuse behaviour on the grounds of arrested adolescence, I'm not sure how useful it is to even try to make such distinctions between comic-cons and other conventions.
If sexual harassment is an issue, anywhere, then the organisers need policies in place fucking pronto to stop it. And idiots who feel that it is their god-given right to ask to touch stranger's tits (because hey! they have the right to say "no"!) should be fucking ejected from humanity.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:27 / 22.08.08
The Con Anti-Harrassment Project.
 
 
Spaniel
13:21 / 22.08.08
I feel bad for not commenting on this on Mindless Ones, but it comes at a time when I want to consistently enforce a no news outside of link blogging policy, and seeing as none of us is currently working on a link post, and we're all really busy with other things...

I don't know, perhaps I'm just being an arse. What say you, Barbelith?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:51 / 22.08.08
You're an arse, but I love big butts and I do not lie...
 
 
Neon Snake
15:05 / 22.08.08
What say you, Barbelith?

Mindless Ones dealt well enough with the Honor Jackson "incident", Boboss; I see no reason not to comment on this if you think it warrants commenting on.




(and I personally think that it does, but then it's not my site)
 
 
Mystery Gypt
19:16 / 22.08.08
sorry, i'm not seeing a list of incidents or the writing of people defending them -- where are the links to these pages? I just see the original blog posted who links to girl wonder. i'd just like to see some more context here. maybe i missed a link but i thought i clicked through what's been posted so far.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:46 / 22.08.08
Original post here.
 
 
Mark Parsons
20:21 / 22.08.08
Alas, sexually harassment is still pretty much everywhere, isn't it? It may have changed its spots slightly from the older stereotypes.

I was ghost writing a book about career self-sabotage and interviewed a number of businesswomen from all walks of life, and they all stated that SH remains in force despite all the gains of feminism, etc. It is not as blatant as it once was, most people are aware of the concept and the possible consequences, yet it keeps on happening, perhaps b/c some of it is more "passive" than older behaviors.

How to fight it: raise children who know right from wrong, understand how to have respect for others, etc. I know that's a bit long term, but I've found that men who have shitty or questionable attitudes towards woman aren't given to correction or introspection.
 
 
Spaniel
20:45 / 22.08.08
And fight the little fights. Like this one.
 
  
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