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Spiritual journey of deprivation.

  
 
Foretold Soldier
01:46 / 07.08.08
I'm curious about the communities dealings in extended deprivation of physical needs. I have a friend who spent a time of around 2 weeks without sleep. He began hallucinating and suffered the classic symptoms associated with exhaustion. He's found that his experience was similar to that of consistent ibogaine usage. His experience ended when his mother admitted him to a mental hospital after he muttered something of his hallucinations.

Has any one gone to extremes such as these for gnostic journey?
 
 
grant
02:22 / 07.08.08
There are actually a couple of older threads on here about fasting and ordeals and body modifications, among other things.

I fast regularly, but am not sure it counts as a "journey." Maybe it does, but I don't think what I do is nearly involved enough.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
07:55 / 07.08.08
Why would you do that? Why did your friend do that? What did he hope to get out of it? What did he actually get out of it? What is your own interest and motivation for starting this thread?
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
12:41 / 07.08.08
Deprivation could have several degrees of involvement from religious reminders such as Ramadan and Lent, to exploring the inner mindscape in a body temperature salt-bath sensory deprivation tank.

In your summary you mention Fasting, seclusion and darkness, but you use sleep deprivation as an example in your initial post... What about pain practice such as suspension, or something simple like running to exhaustion?

What are you looking for? An alterd state via endorphins or lack of oxygen? A natural high? If so, I suggest checking out Douglas Rushkoff's Stoned Free which he details various natural ways of getting high such as spinning, or yoga, or running.

If you want more "extreme" examples of altered consiousness from deprivation or body play, check out ReSearch Publications Modern Primitives or read up on people like Fakir Musafar.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:36 / 07.08.08
Why are these things desirable though? What's the point in an altered state? Why would you spin round in a circle 300 times in order to feel a bit dizzy afterwards? What does that do for you exactly?
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:59 / 07.08.08
He began hallucinating and suffered the classic symptoms associated with exhaustion.

Imagine that.

It's extremely dangerous to deprive oneself of sleep for extended periods, and as far as I am aware it would be next to impossible to go without sleep for 2 weeks without suffering a psychotic break or dying so I personally doubt he was actually awake the entire time.

He's found that his experience was similar to that of consistent ibogaine usage.

You have mentioned ibogaine before over in a Lab thread. For those not familiar with the drug there's a bit of info and a link to a UK organisation that uses it to treat drug addiction here.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
14:53 / 07.08.08
Well, reasons for wishing to be in an alterd state are varied and subjective and I can only speak for myself.

Entering an altered state can provide a person with a new or different perspective in what they percieve as reality. The motivation for doing so can be as simple as pleasure seaking (A couple of drinks after a day's work) or more complex inner working (3 days of intense fasting followed by 6-8 hours in a sweat lodge on a vision quest) I'm afraid that I haven't taken part in a sweat lodge yet and cannot verify the results, but I do have plans to.

Some examples of altered states which have produced a positive result for me:

All night dancing at a rave, without chemical stimuli. I found that the combination of the moving and the music led me to a point where I was no longer self aware. My ego melted away completely and my thoughts cleared to almost single focus. I no longer looked at those around me nor did I think about my own dancing. I was alone with the music and a vague awareness of movement. This state fluctuated somewhat, it was not constant, but every time I snapped out of it, I had an overwhelming feeling of exhilaration. My good spirit lasted almost a week after each of my two rave experiences.

After a couple of years of wanting one, I decided to get pretty extreme piercing, an ampallang. I had several reasons: Aesthetic, pleasure, and most importantly, because I thought it a way of overcoming certain fears as well as finally claiming my body for my own. The pain was breathtaking but not as intense as I imagined. While I didn't watch (On the advice of my piercer) I let myself otherwise embrace the experience 100%. For the few hours that followed, I experienced an endorphin rush unlike anything I ever encountered. Everything was sharper, more focused, yet glow-y. It's hard to explain. It was like the halos you see around evertyhing after swimming underwater for a long time with your eyes open, but instead of being hazy, everything was sharp. All my senses were acute, not just my vision. I really looked through the world with new eyes and wondered if things could always be like that. I felt like I was looking at the world through Huxley's eyes as he wrote The Doors of Perception. And I felt GOOD! I mean really, really GOOD!. If I think back, I can revisit that state in my mind, so deeply etched it was in my consciousness. That night was magic and I felt reborn.

After being inspired by Modern Primitives I spent a day (OK - A few hours..) being wrapped in cling-film, pretty much cutting off all tactile sensation (Except for the warm, wrinkly feeling of the plastic...) I let my girlfriend at the time unwrap me and then caress me. While it wasn't the mind-blowing experience I had hoped for, I must still say that the pleasure was more intense than normal.

Why are these things desirable though? What's the point in an altered state?

I think that deprivation and/or body play can have very positive results in self-exploration. If anything they remind you of how wonderful your body can be or what it's limitations are. Sometimes alttered states are just for pleasure: Why do children love spinning until they're dizzy? Because it's fun. And even without knowing it, you can learn something about yourself.
 
 
Foretold Soldier
18:03 / 07.08.08
Your questions are strange gypsy...

The altered state allows you to shuck a bunch of pseudo reality off the top layer and see through the gates of another world. These altered states are the ancient message that nature had passed to us so that we may see the light in it's purest form.

Whether these things be through chemical or personally acquired through meditation or fasting, the altered state is the closest our eyes may venture to the oneness of infinity.
 
 
Foretold Soldier
18:38 / 07.08.08
also, to answer your question on why my friend would embark upon a journey such as this...

He's a bit of a shut in, lives with his parents to this day. 28 years old he is.

He didn't mean to do what he did, but it lives on as one of the most important experiences of his life. He would not do this again on purpose unless through the use of ibogaine, but otherwise he wouldn't resort to something like that, simply because he's scared to do those sorts of things.
 
 
EmberLeo
19:17 / 07.08.08
The question is only strange if you assume the answer is universal, which isn't a safe assumption.

--Ember--
 
 
Evil Scientist
21:48 / 07.08.08
The altered state allows you to shuck a bunch of pseudo reality off the top layer and see through the gates of another world. These altered states are the ancient message that nature had passed to us so that we may see the light in it's purest form.

It would have course been easier if Nature gave us the ability to do it without having to try not to sleep for extended periods. The ability to sleep being another gift that nature gave to us (although I should point out my personal belief is that nature is an insentient force so it isn't, in my opinion, the case that nature "gave it to us").

So what evidence did your friend gather that satisfied him that his experiences in the world of sleep deprivation were more real than, what you describe as, the pseudo-reality we inhabit?
 
 
Foretold Soldier
22:48 / 07.08.08
Hmm, I find it strange that there seems to be opposition to these practices here. These fall along the board with entheogens. Why do you question someone's accidental run in with exhaustion based hallucinations, but if some one came here with a story of a near death experience, I am certain it would be payed credence. I don't care much for being agreed with either, but I feel as though those who would question these methods of spiritual venture have never experienced them for your self...

What does one get out of sensual deprivation or fasting? It is like an intense spiritual catapult. It is one thing to philosophize spirituality, but to be emerged in it so deeply that there are no names or definitions you can draw out of it until much later, this is the experience I often seek. But once again, this comes from my view point, where I was initially introduced to spirituality with LSD and the morning glory.

To answer the previous question: I am not sure, as he felt it too personal to fully explain to me, but I believe it gave him (an atheist) a vision of his otherwise predefined reality that made it impossible for him to deny that there was something else besides what his mind allowed him to believe upon first observance.
 
 
electric monk
00:45 / 08.08.08
He didn't mean to do what he did...

Waitaminnit... this friend of yours went without sleep for two weeks accidentally?

How does that happen?
 
 
EmberLeo
06:16 / 08.08.08
Hmm, I find it strange that there seems to be opposition to these practices here. These fall along the board with entheogens. Why do you question someone's accidental run in with exhaustion based hallucinations, but if some one came here with a story of a near death experience, I am certain it would be payed credence.

In my experience what is questioned isn't the experience, but the description. If there's not enough explanation of methods, motives, etc. folks tend to ask for more details, probe into what all was involved. The questioning isn't per se a demand for justification, so much as a request for elaboration.

That said, given the examples you cited? A near-death experience isn't something you can usually bother questioning with regards to motive, simply because it's rare that people choose to have them. Certainly any decisions being made - or avoided - will be examined. But questioning isn't always the same as disapproval or even disagreement. It's just examination.

--Ember--
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:43 / 08.08.08
I find it strange that there seems to be opposition to these practices here.

Not opposition. Constructive criticism and interrogation of beliefs and practices, rather than glib acceptance of anybody's party line.

the altered state is the closest our eyes may venture to the oneness of infinity.

Is it though? What if the world outside, as it is, is already a perfect expression of the oneness of infinity? What if it's not psuedo-reality at all - whatever that means - but actual reality, and the lust for altered states of consciousness through entheogens or other means was actually just more efforts at escapism from that ultimate reality of nature that surrounds us all the time if we would only pay attention to it?

I'm not writing off the value of entheogens, dancing to exhaustion, piercing, et al, but I sometimes get a sense that there is a tendency in popular occultism to focus more on the binoculars themselves rather than using them to look at the stars - if you get what I mean.

What if you are spinning around in circles to try and get a glimpse of the absolute, and confusing the resulting dizziness with the oneness of infinity, when the actual oneness of infinity is already going on all around you - right beneath your nose - and all you're actually doing is giving yourself a funny turn due to excess spinning?

Not that there is anything wrong with that altered state or any other, but I would definitely challenge the idea that these altered states are somehow more *real* or important than our normal everyday consciousness and experience of the world. It might be the case that there's actually more magic and mystery going on all around us - within the things you are writing off as "psuedo-reality" - and we just simply fail to notice this miraculous process of nature most of the time due to the dullness of our senses and the difficulty of being awake and aware in every moment.

It may be the case that entheogens (et al) function as a catalyst to bring us to this numinous awareness of nature - but I do generally get a sense that a lot of people have this idea that this reality going on all around us is somehow shit, rubbish and mundane - and the purpose of magic/entheogens is to escape it into some other realm somewhere else. I personally see this as totally backwards, and that right here and now - this moment - is where it's at.

I feel as though those who would question these methods of spiritual venture have never experienced them for your self...

That's an interesting line of reasoning. I've drank Ayahuasca and sat at the Gates of Heaven in the presence of the Divine. I've been ridden by the Spirits and seen the laws of physics seemingly broken before me many times. It doesn't stop me questioning. It doesn't stop me looking for other possible interpretations of what may have happened. I may find it expedient to adopt an operative belief in spirits for the purposes of my practice, but I have no way of knowing for sure what is actually taking place in these encounters. I know that something is, and I know that something is valuable and leads to interesting places. But I'm very aware that my personal interpretation of the phenomena that arises out of magic is just a narrative, and narratives can sometimes be faulty. I always try to keep an open mind about everything that happens in the course of my practice, and especially about the big life-changing experiences that often come up. You appear to be arguing that we shouldn't question any of our experiences or entertain multiple interpretations or perspectives on what may or may not have happened.

but if some one came here with a story of a near death experience, I am certain it would be payed credence.

Why are you certain about that? If someone turned up with a story of what they encountered following a near-death experience, I'd find it interesting, certainly, and I'd handle it with a lot more sensitivity than someone's story about getting their missus to wrap them in clingfilm for an hour. But I wouldn't take onboard what they had to say as if it were the objective literal reality of the afterlife and therefore not open to any questioning or alternative interpretation.

28 years old he is.

You are Yoda and I claim my £5.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
10:12 / 08.08.08
Gypsy, when you say: Not that there is anything wrong with that altered state or any other, but I would definitely challenge the idea that these altered states are somehow more *real* or important than our normal everyday consciousness and experience of the world. - I can't escape the nagging sensation that whatever the ontological status of these different "realities", doesn't it seem like there's a strong association between having these liminal experiences and turning towards a more non-consensual/non-mainstream interpretation of actions and meanings in the world around us?

I mean, I don't know whether drugs, ordeals, or any other type of extreme stimuli-practices actually cause people to experience different ontological realms than the here-now. But judging from both historical and contemporary accounts (which is all I've got to go on personally), it does seem that altered states* are important to at least get a lot of practitioners to fully engage with their work, and make it a consistent and important part of their lives. Whether they then go on to use these techniques further is of course a different question.

*Of course, this all begs the question, "what is an altered state of consciousness"? Good threads in Temple?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:30 / 08.08.08
Yeah, I agree with that. I just get alarm bells around the idea of altered states=good, "mundane" reality=bad.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
13:30 / 08.08.08
Is it though? What if the world outside, as it is, is already a perfect expression of the oneness of infinity?

I know that this has been discussed elsewhere (The Enligntenment Thread comes to mind...)

I get the sense, however, that this (your statement above) may be something that needs to be arrived at: When you are young you experience the absolute wonder of "mundane" reality. This wonder tends to wear out for many people as they grow and get used to it. It takes a lot of work to uphold one's sense of astonishment if you are even aware that it's something you should be working towards. It's easy to forget how amazing the world is when it may be all you know.

That's where experimentation comes in to play, testing one's limits and one's definition of "reality". Alterd states can be used as a reference point for gauging "normal" or "mundane" reality. To place a value of good/bad, better/worse is kind of pointless: new and or different is a better model to work with.

I suspect that the whole process is circular: The world is fresh and new and full of insights, the world becomes boring, altered states are fresh and new and full of insights, altered states become boring, the world is fresh again...

To say that being stoned, or in another state is "preferable", or "more true", is of course full of shit.

Richard Alpert (Ram Dass) had a great story of when he met his Guru on his travels through India:
He had a vial of a couple of ounces or so of pure LSD he was carrying with him which he was using to explore and map the landscape of his mind. The nature of LSD eluded him and he was uncertain of the things he experienced on it: He seemed to approach what he thought was "God" but somehow it was just out of his grasp. He had just lost his job at Harvard and like several people of that generation, was wandering around the world trying to find himself.
One day, a friend brought him to the man who would become his guru.
The Guru said, "You are carring a strong medicine with you." to which Richard showed it to him and asked him, "What is it? What is it's nature?".
The Guru opened the vial, drank it all in one shot and said, "Come back this evening and I'll tell you.".
Richard went back a few hours later and was stunned that the Guru hadn't been reduced to a drooling chemically-lobotomized vegetable given the quantity and potency of acid he had ingested a few hours before.
He asked, "What did you think of my 'medicine'?"
The Guru replied, "It's good, shows you many things, but it's not as good as meditation.".

Part of the point is that it was the Altered State which led Dr. Alpert to understand the beauty of the world as it is in the first place, and did indeed serve it's purpose in time.

True or not, it's a nice story and illustrates my point well.

It's been said that absence makes the heart grow fonder*, and I think that exploration into Alterd States can make one realize how wonderous "real reality" is...

GL I do like your binoculars analogy and I know that you have entered trances, trips, etc... To "see" or experience something which is usually not known. Is it fair to say that a part of your work is finding ways to experience these things in everyday reality? Do you enter an "altered state" just for the purpose of bringing something back which will be used in your day-to-day life, or for the pleasure of the experience, or both? I agree that the idea or point is not to exist in these states, but to merely visit, just as you should not say one is preferable to another ("Reality" vs "Trip"). Certain insights and understandings can certainly be acquired by entering states other than "normal" reality, but I think it's about what you do with these insights that's important, not merely dwelling on them.

and I'd handle it with a lot more sensitivity than someone's story about getting their missus to wrap them in clingfilm for an hour.

Well, you didn't exactly rip into me for this one like I was perpared for when I hit post (It was a very loose example of deprivation very loosely based on an experiment by Fakir Musafar) but you can't really knock it until you try it. But I agree: Perhaps more experimentation would warrant a thread in Head Shop to post results...




*Maybe it's true or maybe this adage belongs in the "things people think are true.." thread in convo)
 
 
EvskiG
14:02 / 08.08.08
Not that there is anything wrong with that altered state or any other, but I would definitely challenge the idea that these altered states are somehow more *real* or important than our normal everyday consciousness and experience of the world.

Lord knows I've had my share of experiences with altered consciousness, but the older I get the more I become convinced that EVERY GODDAMNED SECOND OF EVERY GODDAMNED DAY can be a "perfect expression of the oneness of infinity" and a moment of perfect communion with the divine (if you believe in that sort of thing) if we just PAUSE FOR A MOMENT AND PAY ATTENTION.

No genital piercings required.
 
 
EvskiG
14:07 / 08.08.08
Slipped by a related observation.

Richard went back a few hours later and was stunned that the Guru hadn't been reduced to a drooling chemically-lobotomized vegetable given the quantity and potency of acid he had ingested a few hours before.

Even a truly heroic dose of acid is unlikely to reduce a mentally healthy person to "a drooling chemically-lobotomized vegetable."
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
14:09 / 08.08.08
Lord knows I've had my share of experiences with altered consciousness, but the older and (arguably) more experienced I get the more I become convinced that EVERY GODDAMNED SECOND OF EVERY GODDAMNED DAY can be a "perfect expression of the oneness of infinity" and a moment of perfect communion with the divine (if you believe in that sort of thing) if we just PAUSE FOR A MOMENT AND PAY ATTENTION.

Would you be so convinced had you never experienced altered consciousness? Did these help firm your current stance? Were they pointless and/or damaging in forming a healthy worldview or did they function as a slap off side the head saying, "PAY ATTENTION!"?
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
14:23 / 08.08.08
Those were my words, not Dr. Alperts... I would expect that a couple of hours after ingesting such a dose he would have been in the height of his trip.
I was embellishing the story in my own way: I apologize if I was inaccurate in in my expectations: I have come nowhere near to taking a similar dose and I would imagine myself as being wide-eyed and afraid to move... Who knows...
 
 
EvskiG
15:18 / 08.08.08
Would you be so convinced had you never experienced altered consciousness?

Hard to tell, innit?
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
16:06 / 08.08.08
Hard to tell, innit?

Kinda my point... I tried to be clear: Experiments with perception via chemicals(introduced or latent) can positively affect one's view of normal life. They may even facilitate a communion with a higher consciousness, or at least show the possibility of such a thing.

Your experience led you directly to your current position. In 10 years they may change again and you'll be all about altered consciousness... As GL said, it's important to not mistake the tools for the desired outcome.

Or as others have said, Leary pointed the direction but people got stuck on the starting line.
 
 
EvskiG
16:45 / 08.08.08
Your experience led you directly to your current position.

Yes, in the same sense that stubbing my toe a few weeks ago -- or any other given event in my life -- led me to my current position.

Which, of course, is not the same as saying that my previous experiences with altered states of consciousness necessarily "led me directly" to my current attitude toward everyday consciousness.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
17:22 / 08.08.08
I'll admit that stubbing your toe probably didn't allow you to see the face of the divine in a raindrop.

I still think that your previous experience with altered consciousness allowed you to have a direct point of reference in which to compare the aparently superior quality of "normal" consciousness and everyday life.

Or not.

I don't want to beat a dead horse or contribute to threadrot but I think that there is a connection. But who knows? I can only speak from my vantage point and I think that unless you have been raised to hold every moment sacred and you deny the existance of any other form of divinity, then you need something which to compare these beliefs. The fact that you have experimented in the past and then you state: but the older I get the more I become convinced that... tells me that you arrived at your conclusion from your experience. One led to the other. Not 100% necessarily I suppose, but I'm pretty damn sure.

A person who says that "there is absolutely nothing good about marijuana: There is zero benefits, in fact it's the worst thing in the world... Of course I've never tried it!" is full of shit.

A person who has tried pot and say's that they found that it was not beneficial to them personally, is another story.
 
 
EmberLeo
20:23 / 08.08.08
I don't think anyone is arguing that it's impossible for altered consciousness to be useful. It was never a yes/no question to begin with.

Personally, I've been taught from many angles that "altered consciousness" is a tool, and like most tools, it's moral or ethical value is in its use, not its existence.

On the one hand, we know from studies in history, anthropology, psychology, and pharmacology that some forms of altered consciousness make the human brain more inclined to accept what it is fed at that time without question - just take it on board. These tools have been used for that purpose both deliberately and because it's traditional. They're most of the tools of ritual and religious togetherness, actually - or football cheering squads.

The phrase I have learned to describe these methods for establishing altered consciousness is "back door to the psyche". That's not a key I refuse to use, but it's not one I hand out casually either.

Also, "Altered Consciousness" represents not a single state, but a whole spectrum of states, with not all states being useful for the same things. Have you ever been driving a car and found yourself on "autopilot", taking a familiar route to the wrong place because you stopped paying close attention? That autopilot is a form of Altered Consciousness. Not a tremendously shiny form, but altered nonetheless. Most folks settle into a light trance watching TV, for that matter - a thought I find a little scary, actually.

There are some states of consciousness I have no desire to engage in, and others I frequently engage. Dissociation and Hyper-Focus are not the same kind of consciousness, but neither of them are the same as the base line. Which raises the question - what's the base line and what is it good for? How far off of that line do we have to be for it to be considered "altered"? Not that these questions haven't been addressed a zillion times from different angles, but it's good to remember the questions exist.

--Ember--
 
 
Foretold Soldier
14:18 / 09.08.08
Gypsy, I thank you for interrogating what I say. That's why I came here to begin with anyways. Also, sorry for that last post. Very sloppy of me, but I won't try to change it.

Anyways, I tend to approach the human essence as an imperfect prison. Not really a prison, but I often find myself viewing the human body as something that evolved to integrate the soul for some purpose we do not fully understand yet. The soul is eternal, I feel the blips of life that cling to our higher self can fully be utilized when we know who our soul is to begin with. I don't really feel like an altered consciousness is altered at all, but simply stripped. I find that exploring the ethereal with these "altered" states, we dive in without influence, as opposed to beginning our practice with the knowledge of others and being taken down the path that worked for them and others. Once we see the ethereal to begin with, we can then bring other practices in to the loop and we will know precisely what we are working with.
 
  
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