BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Curious as for those who have fallen off

 
 
Foretold Soldier
05:35 / 24.07.08
I am in a rather virginal stage in a practice which I am crafting from bits and pieces of what I see as magic. I try my best to not look at names. No logos or symbols or labels shall effect what I adapt and adopt. As I tread shallow swamp murk and try and find my mystic eyes, I don't look for the radiant lights down here. I'm looking for those who have fallen off. I poise a question I need answered that I can find no evidence of myself.

Who amongst the mystical community (of any practice no matter how far away from the word magick they are) have fallen off the deep in. How many have no listened to the repeated warnings of the teachers. Who have thrown caution to the wind and wished their sanity be blown away permanently with no regard for consequence. Who has suffered from their magickal mispractice enough that they have not returned to a state any of us would call normal?
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:33 / 24.07.08
Who have thrown caution to the wind and wished their sanity be blown away permanently with no regard for consequence. Who has suffered from their magickal mispractice enough that they have not returned to a state any of us would call normal?

It's a bit problematic really. I'm not sure you're going to get very many helpful responses purely because it's not going to be easy for someone in this state to be able to give you a coherant answer. There's also the issue that someone writing posts with their "sanity blown away" could easily be mis-taken in this communication form (ie message board) for a troll.
 
 
unbecoming
09:12 / 24.07.08
Also it will be difficult, I think, to draw a distinction between a discussion of the context and influence of madness with specific regard to esoteric belief in society and just plain old misguided celebration of mental illness. The main problem is probably your choice to use such ecstatic language, which unfortunately stigmatises your contribution straight away.
 
 
trouble at bill
11:42 / 24.07.08
Arkady, that seems a little harshly-put and i'm not sure i totally get what you mean. Could you elaborate a bit?

I think that the way madness is woven into the fabric of esotericism (in a way that it's not in a lot of other types of relgion or spirituality) is a very interesting topic, I'll say that much.

I personally don't know of any cases where I can say for sure that people have really gone bugfuck due to esoteric foolishness though - all the ones I know who've had problems were not totally stable in the first place which makes a simple explanation impossible. But IMHO the threat/fear of madness seems to be part of the rhetoric of esotericism, rather than a real risk for the average practitioner. Only my opinion, though.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
11:43 / 24.07.08
For a decent look at the mind of someone slipping into insanity, I'd suggest reading Join My Cult by James Curcio. Not the easiest read, but a pretty good snapshot. James has said that it is partialy autobiographical and he is not afraid to name his friends upon whom he has based certain characters. (You can dig up lots of info on his site.)

I won't go deep into what goes down in the book, but it's a group of friends, all somewhat versed in magick and constantly tripping on halucinogens trying to find a mystical group who may be at war with another mystical group. Or it may be the same group. Or there may not be a group at all. Peoples personalities shift and morph, people are emotionally strung out, there are answers which may be found in an asylum, and the group might be onto a huge conspiracy and/or may be terrorists or merely insane. There is a great section about crossing the abyss and meeting Choronzon.

It is a great look at a young magickian going mad.
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:16 / 24.07.08
Foretold, what's your interest in this side of magical practise? Are you looking for suggestions on how to avoid mental injuries in your studies?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:29 / 24.07.08
Who have thrown caution to the wind and wished their sanity be blown away permanently with no regard for consequence.

and

A question of losing sanity in the deep space of the eternal mystic transdimensional subexistence.

It might not be intentional, but it does come across as if you are romanticising and celebrating mental illness here, in a way that makes me uncomfortable. Magic is not about driving yourself mad. There is no glory in being unable to function because of your magical practice. The point is to walk *between* worlds, and bring back something valuable, not get hopelessly lost in weird territories of consciousness and never find your way back. Yes, I have seen this happen to people, and it is no different from watching someone destroy themselves through drug or alcohol abuse.

It is a great look at a young magickian going mad.

Why is that being held up as a good thing? I sometimes feel as if people who get into this stuff are only doing so out of boredom in their lives - and its as if the actual fucking goal is to see how far you can drive yourself mad. Like bunjee-jumping into the Abyss for kicks. All fun and games until someone actually cracks their head open and everyone who loves them has to live with the consequences for the rest of their lives.

But IMHO the threat/fear of madness seems to be part of the rhetoric of esotericism, rather than a real risk for the average practitioner.

It depends what you're doing. If all you're doing is the occasional sigil and a bit of tarot, then the risks of going mad aren't all that high unless you are particularly unstable. If, however, you are deep into a long-term practice that involves communicating with invisible beings on a regular basis, there is rather a lot of scope for things to go awry if you do not manage your work safely and responsibly. And more so if you are then throwing a load of random recreational psychedelics into the mix on top of an already high octane practice. Magical work of that nature *will* tend to challenge you, and it will sometimes throw up repressed, unbalanced or unresolved material for you to deal with - which not everyone is prepared for. I think that some people get into this stuff and expect it to be like a theme park ride or something, but it does involve work and that work can sometimes be difficult. There's no growth without challenge. I fully believe that the work of a magician is about navigating these areas safely and successfully - stepping into magical reality and returning with something of value - as opposed to deliberately trying to drive yourself mad via magic out of some sort of misplaced rebellion against "the normal" (whatever that is).
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
13:06 / 24.07.08
Why is that being held up as a good thing?

It's not. It's not romantisized at all in Curcio's book.

By saying that it's a great look at a young magickian going mad, I'm saying that he's showing a very terrible and depressing reality. He paints a pretty bad picture of the things that he went through. I can see how in the beginning some impressionable people may think of it as "cool", and dwell on that aspect, but it's not really the point, is it? Some people think that the camaraderie in the beginning of films like "American History X" and "This is England" is cool and ignore the point that that behaviour leads to ruin.

But Curcio survived, and then went on to tell the story of his survival, and I can see how some people may fetishize that.

Some people may think that madness is a path to knowledge in the same way drugs may be. These things get glamourized and while a small number of people have benefited from certain experience, certain other people tend to mistake the map for the terrain, so to speak. Make no bones: this is a path to self destrucion. The people who have survived by pulling themselves away from this path probably didn't choose to take it in the first place. Those who actively seek to walk those roads are morons.

I think of such things more as cautionary tales than anything. A roadmap saying that if you are not cautious and grounded, this way madness lies. There is value in that, I think.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:23 / 24.07.08
"This is England" is cool and ignore the point that that behaviour leads to ruin.

Surely Ben Sherman shirts and Jamaican Ska alone don't lead you to ruin though? Do they?
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
13:27 / 24.07.08
You didn't know? Gateway fashions...
 
 
unbecoming
14:37 / 24.07.08
Arkady, that seems a little harshly-put and I'm not sure I totally get what you mean. Could you elaborate a bit?

Reading over my post I admit that it does seem a bit cold so apologies to Foretold Soldier if it was read that way.

To elaborate on my post, I felt that the language used in the post was very evocative and as Gypsy Lantern points out, runs the risk of romanticising mental illness.

In fact I can relate to the feelings and tone used in the original post. A friend of my Father's: “Big Jim” went into the hills near Edinburgh and saw horned figures dancing round a fire. This image has always stuck with me as I often felt when I was younger, that I wanted to have a vision of this type, forgetting that Big Jim spent the last years of his life medicated in hospital or thinking that shadowy agents were following him through the streets.

I fear that the celebratory attitude to madness that I read into Foretold Soldier's post fails to acknowledge the true difficulty of mental illness and is naïve to
the strain that such issues place on those around the people concerned.

If a person is unable to have a constructive relationship with consensus reality this fact alone does not make them a genius. I don't like the idea of celebrating, seeking or courting insanity just because it is thought that insanity equals gifted and special.

However,

I think that engaging in practices which seek to effect one's surroundings through acausal or spiritual means is at odds with the dominant narratives of our current culture and as such engaging in such practices creates a tension between the consensus of reality and the individual and so inevitably relates to the conception of madness and mental illness, especially considering how subjectively the results of such endeavours are usually measured IME

Also, I am not wholeheartedly endorsing the discourse of madness here and would like to read more discussion on the role and context of madness in regards to esoteric practices.

But IMHO the threat/fear of madness seems to be part of the rhetoric of esotericism, rather than a real risk for the average practitioner.

This is an interesting point as I can totally relate to that fear, I need to think more on this one, and will return if I think of anything worthwhile.
 
 
Bruno
21:04 / 24.07.08
I think at times I have really lost it and gone off the deep end (and there is plenty of evidence of it posted here and there around this board in the past) but I'm not doing bad. Well depression and despair and that intense feeling of unbearable alienation with everyone and everything around you including yourself is certainly not fun and could crush someone completely after a while. “Throwing caution to the wind and wishing your sanity be blown away permanently with no regard for consequence” and that to me sounds like a self-destructive obsession better resisted, just as it would make sense to resist a sudden urge to leap off a cliff for example - although I can understand that, the wish for dispersion and dissolution, letting your life fall apart, and it is not dissimilar to the beginning of some kind of initiation or rebirth, or the lust for a life without restrictions. It is certainly not just a question of either/or as some people seem to be presenting it in this post.
Gypsy Lantern mentions “deliberately trying to drive yourself mad via magic out of some sort of misplaced rebellion against "the normal" (whatever that is)” pointing to the vagueness of the idea of 'normality', ok, but shying away from applying the same criticism to “madness”. Well to state the obvious, to all but a fringe of mental health professionals, communicating with invisible beings on a regular basis as well as plenty of other magical practices are all definite signs of mental illness and would get you diagnosed with clinical pathologies and prescibed anti-psychotic pills. So shouldnt you defacto have to address some of that if you are talking about magic and madness.
So where to draw the line? Well the general drift I see here is that someone's “mentally ill” if they have retreated into a fantasy world and arent able to communicate with others - and yes extended periods of time without some basic friendship and solidarity with others will quite possibly get you worse and worse... especially if drugs are involved some people go so far they are lost forever and it is very sad. I agree there is nothing to celebrate there, although “mad” people like schizophrenics often notice things other people dont and you can learn quite a bit from them interspersed between the nonsense.
Looking back over the pages of crazy notes I kept taking during periods when for example I was convinced I was possessed by a dead spirit for ages - and feeling for hours every day that the actions i was taking were being taken by something alien to me like a parasite or something- looking back at those notes of agony and despair there are some very accurate observations and I would say the structure of my understanding of magic came out of that as much as it came out of conversations with others and books - although I was only able to put it to any use when I had gradually pulled myself together and was more grounded. Years later when a friend of mine had a nervous breakdown I think my experiences of madness helped me relate to him when others were at a complete loss of how to handle him.

But - although I agree that there's no point in getting hopelessly lost - if the point is to walk *between* worlds, and bring back something valuable, where do you come back *to*? Where is *here*?
Is it the normal everyday world of 8-hours-a-day boring work interspersed with patterns of consumption - Politicians and cops and carbon monoxide - People starving because they dont have money (pieces of paper) to exchange for food - Am I alone here in feeling that the world has gone “mad”? And what is more mad the hallucinations of a hopelessly confused lsd burn out or the paperwork of accountants at say arms companies? And to be blunt what is it that drives people off the deep end if not the frustrations of the difficult lives they are having this side of the astral and the miserable absence of real contact for so many here?
So in a sense I'm not particularly interested in coming back to the consensus-reality or “common sense” if it is the "common sense" of money and bosses and schools and mental health experts – I quite like the varied and rich currents which rebel against this kind of normalcy, yes, why not, a celebration of the irrational as opposed to the “rational” and “sane” reality imposing itself on us. And where else would one locate magic today but within this rebellion? It wouldnt be magic if it wasnt a bit mad, would it?
 
 
EvskiG
21:57 / 24.07.08
to all but a fringe of mental health professionals, communicating with invisible beings on a regular basis as well as plenty of other magical practices are all definite signs of mental illness and would get you diagnosed with clinical pathologies and prescibed anti-psychotic pills.

Shhh!

Don't tell the guys in the white coats about all those people praying!
 
 
Foretold Soldier
22:27 / 24.07.08
I did not mean to romanticize mental illness via magickal practice. All I meant was to ask a question which was drowned out by my obviously failed attempt to make my post more entertaining to read: Can I have some examples of people who have gone too far in their practice and suffered consequences for their actions.

This doesn't have to be mental illness, but I'd like to hear more than just "I got depressed because I messed it up and that was the consequence."

I ask this question because recently I felt myself going that way and I want to know if there are shared experiences.
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:04 / 25.07.08
I ask this question because recently I felt myself going that way and I want to know if there are shared experiences.

I'm not a practitioner but it seems to me that, if that is the case, then maybe you ought to seek out some guidance in your investigations rather than winging it by yourself. It might benefit your health further down the road.

Like I say, not a practitioner, so could be talking out of my fundament on this one. What do others think?
 
 
Neon Snake
08:16 / 25.07.08
Uh, yes.

I go by a rule of thumb which says that if a majickal practice is helping me in any way, then it's useful. If it's going to potentially harm me in any way, then avoid it like the fucking plague.

Look, there's a certain romanticism in having been to the edge and back again, and there's a very vague sense that in majick it's almost necessary to have done that. But it's a very difficult thing to accomplish, especially alone, and the risks are often not worth the reward.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:02 / 25.07.08
Well to state the obvious, to all but a fringe of mental health professionals, communicating with invisible beings on a regular basis as well as plenty of other magical practices are all definite signs of mental illness and would get you diagnosed with clinical pathologies and prescibed anti-psychotic pills. So shouldnt you defacto have to address some of that if you are talking about magic and madness.

Yes, I'm very aware that my general day-to-day way of relating to the world would be considered bugfuck crazy by a lot of people. Walking *between* worlds, for me, involves being able to live in constant animistic communion with principles of nature - thunder, fire, river, sea, iron, crossroads, boneyard, forest, etc - whilst also being able to function happily, healthily and effectively in consensus reality (whatever its ills, no - fuck that - because of its ills), able to hold down a job and support oneself and one's family, have healthy and fulfilling relationships with family, partner, loved ones, friends, and make the very best of my personal skills and aptitudes to do positive work in the world according to my nature.

I strive for there to be no dichotomy whatsoever between the version of me that is the mad shaman in the wilderness shaking a bone rattle and speaking with spirits, and the version of me that occupies a place in society - however sick that society may be. The sicker a society is, the more it needs its Doctors and Shamans. The sicker it is, the more it needs its Doctors to be able to function and actually do their job, and put their skills to practical use, rather than purposefully courting their own destruction and breaking against the rocks of their own neurosis for no good reason. I find that mediating between worlds in this way gives meaning and purpose to my practice, and prevents it becoming a solipsistic exercise in navel gazing. In New Orleans Voodoo, there's the concept of the "Two-Headed Doctor", with one head in the world of spirit and one head in consensus reality, and functional and effective in both. The two sides of the coin are not in conflict with one another, but support each other.

If I can get that balance right most of the time, I'm doing OK. Yeah, there's be times when I go "walkabout" in the world of spirit and spend extended periods doing truly demented amounts of magic that would make your teeth curl, and there are times when I have to work long hours dealing with the things I have to deal with to keep my dayside life together - but that's part of it. Part of the challenge and part of the skill of being a magician is in mediating *between* these equally important and equally fulfilling aspects of my life.

Is it the normal everyday world of 8-hours-a-day boring work interspersed with patterns of consumption - Politicians and cops and carbon monoxide - People starving because they dont have money (pieces of paper) to exchange for food.

Yeah, that's the one. Fucked isn't it. What are you going to do about it? Run away? Top yourself? Get yourself institutionalised somewhere? Dig a hole in the ground and sit in it until someone else sorts it out? Within that world of 8-hours a day boring work interspersed with patterns of consumption, politicians and cops and carbon monoxide, are fragile human lives and every one of them is just trying to survive and find a bit of happiness and live as best they can. It can be fucking hard to just do that sometimes, and people get lost, people lose hope, people destroy themselves and others. I believe that we are all intimately engaged with a process of healthy growth, in the same way that a tree grows, and ultimately this is "magic". There isn't a single human being who isn't a "magician" in that particular sense of the word.

"Magic", as I understand it, is a process of exploring and accessing the nature and powers of one's own being in order to live successfully on the planet and in harmony with one's environment and the other life with which we share it. That's the "Great Work" right there, and there's no greater work. I understand a "Magician" to be someone who is consciously engaging with that general process to the best of their ability and according to their own nature - which will vary massively from individual to individual. That sort of conscious commitment to this process does not make you special or superior to any other life, as it's a process that all living things are ultimately involved with, but it does tend to place you at the sharp end of things sometimes and if you step up to the task, you will likely encounter challenges and growing pains along the way. The point of these experiences is to learn from them, navigate them, and come out healthier, stronger and more capable than you were previously.

Every "magician", and indeed every human being, has their own individual Work to do, and part of the task is discovering what that might be, learning how to pay attention to the quiet and not so quiet internal voices that will guide you, and getting on about the task of it to the best of your ability. But no human being is an island, we are social animals, we can communicate with each other, and are enmeshed in a complex web of social interaction and interdependency. I don't think it's possible or desirable to practice "magic" in a bubble, where it doesn't have any contact or interaction with other human (or animal, vegetable and mineral!) lives and the wider social world.

I often think that there is an imbalance in "western magic" that is a direct product of the way it has been forced underground in our culture. None of this stuff is supposed to exist or have any value, therefore these very natural and accessible modes of relating to nature and the conditions of our existence on the planet have been almost entirely marginalised, we are not actively encouraged to explore any of this material, and for the most part it is often the preserve of solitary people trying to make sense of it all by themselves in small rooms. We've lost the social and community context for magic that you will tend to find in other cultures throughout the world whose magico-religious traditions have been horrifically oppressed - but oppressed a lot more recently and generally less thoroughly than the magico-religious traditions that once thrived within the culture responsible for doing all the oppressing, whatever those traditions may have been. Magic has survived in the West, but it's had to survive furtively and quietly in the margins of a culture that has been rather committed to stamping it out, and that has shaped its manifestation.

So for me (and I realise I may be a minority in seeing it this way), part of the "project" of Western Magic is about trying to address that imbalance to some degree, to look at all of these things that have been rejected out of our culture, scorned as "magic" and mumbo jumbo, comprehend what has meaning and value, and explore how this material may be used to bridge the ever-widening chasm that gapes at the heart of our culture and which we are all at risk of falling headlong into with each passing day. That's what a Doctor does. That's what a good Magician does. You can't do it effectively without mediating between worlds, because that sick world that you describe is where these things we call "magic" are most desperately needed. Does that make sense?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:37 / 25.07.08
I can understand that, the wish for dispersion and dissolution, letting your life fall apart, and it is not dissimilar to the beginning of some kind of initiation or rebirth, or the lust for a life without restrictions.

and

Look, there's a certain romanticism in having been to the edge and back again, and there's a very vague sense that in majick it's almost necessary to have done that. But it's a very difficult thing to accomplish, especially alone, and the risks are often not worth the reward.

I've had that particular initiation, several times over in various permutations. In each instance, it wasn't something I "tried to accomplish" and I certainly didn't make a conscious decision to "let my life fall apart". It just did. Massively so. As it sometimes does, whether you consciously identify as a magician or not. These things happen. Sometimes life deals you a poor hand, no matter who you are. It's always an initiation. It's always an opportunity for growth. I strongly resist the idea that the very difficult and demanding initiatory experience of having your life reduced to ashes is something to be sought after, in this extreme sports thrill-seeking sort of way.

I think it does happen to a lot of magicians. It is something that can come up in your magical career. But it's something that anyone can go through. I guarantee there's people down your local pub who probably know more about "crossing the Abyss" in its truest sense than a lot of pompous self-identifying "magicians" who've just read a load of books about the process. But if you do consciously identify as a magician, and that experience comes up, you will probably tend to frame it in a certain way and it will almost certainly be a pivotal initiatory cycle of your magical career prompting much growth and empowerment once (and if) you navigate your way through it and wash up on the shores of understanding. And there are no guarantees that it's a one time deal either.

I don't think its something that you need to go looking for, and I'd say that sort of attitude is equivalent to self-harm. If you are going to encounter that initiation during the course of your magical career, then it will happen when you are good and ready for it.
 
 
the Kite
15:32 / 25.07.08
I agree broadly with Gypsy Lantern. I have seen several examples of magicians whom I consider casualties of the Great Work but I'm not really prepared to give details without the proper psychiatric competence to back myself up. Suffice to say that in my unprofessional opinion, these sorts of dyfunctions happen at least partly as a result of overreaching onself in magical practice, going too far, too fast, without precautions (eg some skill in magical concentration, banishings or similar) and without having prepared by at least loosening the grip of one's ego-based outlook.

For those who choose to explore beyond the average the trick is not to see how bonkers they can get but how well they can hold it together and come back in one piece, even if transformed by the experience. Like mountaineers, we manage risk and don't plan to fall.

We're not playing an RPG. Magic works and we prepare ourselves for the consequences. And between our mad escapades we anchor ourselves in consensus reality with such as friends, jobs, ordinary concerns and humour.
 
 
zedoktar
15:08 / 27.07.08
I just wanted to throw a slightly different perspective in which I think will be relevant. Speaking as someone who went what the kids call "batshit crazy" from drugs (candyflipping, mostly) and came back using a heavy regimen of magick and hermeticness (not Hermetics; just isolation), I tend to believe that magick will keep you sane, maybe make you more so if you do it right.
In my own small experience, magick seems to be in part a process of stripping away a major portion of the delusion of ego and Self, and turning off a lot of mental filters, which can send a person right off if they can't handle it.
"Who is it who asks who am I" can be both a terrifying riddle and an uproarious joke depending where you stand when you hear it.
The flip side is that a lot of madness is born of the same elements which can be stripped away, making magick a little like chemotherapy for the soul.
Ultimately, it seems like if you can persevere long enough through even the most dire pits of madness, you can come out a better person. A little psychosis goes a long way if you have the Will to find your way back out (or out the other side), but it's a hard road, and it tends to leave scars.


Heres an interesting ebook which might shed some more light:
http://deoxy.org/evasion/toc.htm
 
 
Stigma Enigma
01:52 / 02.08.08
Oh, I fell off. In fact, I posted a few times on here during my spaced out phase. Interestingly enough, I had read on certain threads about people losing their way, getting in too deep, and of course I never thought it applied to me.

The whole idea that magic could be real was new to me. It was always the stuff of fiction...be it Dungeons and Dragons or playing Magic the Gathering. "I'm pretending to be this character" or "I cast this spell with this card!"
So I guess I jumped in wholeheartedly. I'm bipolar so I'm used to drastic changes in personality and mood, as well as experiencing what might be considered some strange modes of consciousness (primarily during manic phases.)When I started getting more involved I realized many of these experiences had a very magical nature to them, I just didn't think of it as magic at the time.
It was just so exciting (and still can be!)

What really struck home to me in reading this thread was what has been said above regarding finding a balance between functionality in consensus reality and carrying on a meaningful practice. If I can manage both, then I feel I'm doing something right. If functionality suffers, then the practice probably needs to be toned down. I learned this the hard way after a kundalini-esque explosion of body energy that left me in a unstoppable tai chi frenzy until I had to be heavily sedated. That, as the physical aspect, along with a great deal of thinking that didn't align well with consensus reality.

That chaotic phase ran its course by September, and I crashed along with it. I haven't posted in ages, and part of the reason was the fact that I felt I had nothing worth posting about, or nothing to offer the conversation, or (insert depressive thought here), you get the idea. But I can say I feel more in control and less "insane", although I am hesitant to use that word since sanity is such a subjective idea, to me.

I'm still getting back on my feet almost a year later. Gypsy Lantern convinced me to post again, and I feel better doing it. Thank you.

And once again, I thank all of you for offering me a chance to write about this sort of thing and get feedback from what I consider to be some of the most open minded people I have ever encountered.
 
 
Bruno
13:37 / 02.08.08
I guarantee there's people down your local pub who probably know more about "crossing the Abyss" in its truest sense than a lot of pompous self-identifying "magicians" who've just read a load of books about the process.

Respect to that.

Yeah, that's the one. Fucked isn't it. What are you going to do about it? Run away? Top yourself? Get yourself institutionalised somewhere? Dig a hole in the ground and sit in it until someone else sorts it out?
I don't think I recommended anything like that. I'm not interested in magic as narcissistic navel-gazing either although have been victim to that particular demon in the past.
"What are you going to do about it?" is a question that cuts to the point and one answer I can give off the top of my head is basically to try to find and follow a sense of purpose (without identifying it with my ego) that gets me by day-to-day but also lights me up with mystery and adventure. And that involves being a decent person, getting along with others as well as conflicting with them if necessary, and ultimately means organizing and forming alliances and groups. The process of healthy growth you described is pretty much what it comes down to - but once you get into particulars the concept of health can get pretty relative and I am wary of the term 'healthy' as it can get too prescriptive sometimes.
Like for example having "healthy and fulfilling relationships with family, partner, loved ones, friends" OK nothing to argue with there as long as one also realizes that for a lot of people circumstances make these ideals unattainable and it can be devastating to get into a trip of beating oneself up for e.g. not having attained a deep loving erotic partnership or for not loving your parents like a healthy person should... At times relationships with others can be very stale or even harmful and sometimes it's better to say fuck it and survive in other more solitary modes which are perhaps closer to madness, say existing in the world while maintaining an interior distance - to paraphrase Marcuse sometimes nihilism can be the greatest expression of one's humanity. Maybe this point helps to illustrate my earlier objection to having one's feet planted in consensus reality; to put it in other words sometimes 'healthy growth' in difficult circumstances requires one to break from consensus reality when it is blocking that growth. I thought zedoktor's post was interesting where he said that hermeticness or isolation brought him back from madness; it reminded me that for a long time it was also true in my own experience and that being able to be with myself on my own for a long time was important both for getting myself together and for getting into a regular practice. But at this point in my life I am more sociable although that is in part a response to necessities such as work, sharing a living space, etc.

Something else I am skeptical about is the identification of the role of magician with that of doctor (with a big D no less)... something that could easily (and perhaps unavoidably?) cross over into the New Age Alternative Healing business which I find to be a really repugnant racket. I have nothing against healing per se and of course recognize that it's fundamental in life in general; but in cases of madness at least really healing is something that I see happening through a process of self-learning and also getting along with other people who can show a bit of understanding on a friendly basis rather than as the dependent client of a therapist of some kind, a relationship that I find inherently problematic especially when money is involved.
So if part of the project of Western Magic is to address the imbalance where magico-religious traditions have been oppressed I would suggest that approaching the role of the magician as a doctor could do with a bit of self-critique towards what a doctor today is in the first place and also finding other expressions or roles for the magician. It also needs to be stressed that the oppression of magico-religious traditions is part of a larger historical process of domination and exploitation that needs to be understood if a 'project' of magic is to be made clearer, but thats a conversation leading off topic.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:48 / 04.08.08
Something else I am skeptical about is the identification of the role of magician with that of doctor (with a big D no less)...

Sorry, I was dropping terminology in without explaining its usage very well. I use the term Doctor a lot. It derives ultimately from terms such as witch doctor, conjure doctor, two-headed doctor, etc. Fairly common terminology in New Orleans Voodoo and the US hoodoo traditions. It generally means someone who provides magical services on a professional basis to clients. I really like how the role of doctor in these trads encompasses more than physical healing of the body or the healing of mental/emotional problems, but attends to every facet of life and experience. So a conjure doctor will provide mojo bags to help you find a new job, or spiritual baths to make you more attractive to a partner, or provide protective talismans if you are in danger and so on. I like how "healing" is broadened to take in the full scope of one's life experience.

There's a lot of corruption in the magical profession of doctor, and it's rife with "Dodgy Docs" who are very much running a racket - and a particularly sinister one at that. You go to a Dodgy Doc for a consultation, and are invariably told something terrible is about to happen to you, but you could avert it if you paid Dodgy Doc a very significant fee in order to sort it. They are effectively praying on the vulnerable and exploiting people's fears for cash. Nasty business. Makes a lot of "new age healing" seem positively benign.

However, not every doctor is a dodgy doc. You don't have to buy into that corruption. In its most positive sense, I see the role of doctor being a bit like a plant doctor trying to ensure healthy growth in the system wherever possible. I interpret the role in quite Thelemic terms, in that doctoring is about assisting people to help themselves, rather than making them into your dependent clients. It's really the same job as community shaman, but I'm a bit more comfortable with "doctor" as it has less connotations of weekend workshops, loincloths and suchlike. I cap it up with a big D because it's *not* an idle title, and neither is it a title you can give yourself on the fly. It has to be earned, and it has to be put into practice. A Doctor is made by the spirits.

In the past, I've advertised and I've charged money for services rendered. I think it was valuable and important to have that experience, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with it. These days, I don't advertise, and instead do magical work exclusively for people within my natural orbit. That keeps me pretty busy, and its more meaningful to do work for people who you actually have some involvement with and who you know really need a bit of help on something. When you advertise, you tend to end up with a lot of people who want to throw money at you in order to make them a movie star or force someone to fall in love with them. In some ways, it's actually those people who need help the most - as they generally have a ton of problems that lurk beneath the material obsession they have brought to you. It is exhausting though, as they are rarely prepared to face the real underlying problems contributing to their unhappiness, and will more than likely run at the first chance to a dodgy doc who will happily take all their money while stringing them along with promises of wealth and fame.

As far as money goes, these days I tend to charge a small upfront fee to cover my time, materials and offerings - and suggest that if the client is happy with the results, that they can later make an offering to show their appreciation depending on their means. It's important to me that I don't approach my doctor's practice as a business. It's not a source of income. It's about allowing the Powers I work with to reach out into the world and bring their blessing where it is most needed. Without that "output", my practice wouldn't make any sense. My spirit work is like an intake of breath, and my client work is its out-breath into the world.


So if part of the project of Western Magic is to address the imbalance where magico-religious traditions have been oppressed I would suggest that approaching the role of the magician as a doctor could do with a bit of self-critique towards what a doctor today is in the first place and also finding other expressions or roles for the magician. It also needs to be stressed that the oppression of magico-religious traditions is part of a larger historical process of domination and exploitation that needs to be understood if a 'project' of magic is to be made clearer, but thats a conversation leading off topic.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. It's a bit insulting to presuppose that I've never given any degree of self-critique to my usage of the term doctor. It's also a bit insulting to assume that I'm somehow ignorant of the "larger historical process of domination and exploitation" which the oppression of magico-religious traditions are a part of.

If you want to find other expressions or roles for the magician, go for your life. Go and do it. Tell us about it. I think the role of "magician" occupies a funny space in western culture - largely suppressed, repressed, locked away, hidden, occulted. Hence, a lot of people who get into this stuff don't seem to know where to go with it. There isn't an obvious role to step into, there isn't an obvious outlet for the various skills and abilities that are developed in the course of a magical practice. So without any real cultural role to occupy, and without there being any real purpose for delving into these areas, people seem to get the idea that the goal of magic is to go off the deep end and actually try to drive yourself insane through magic. My way of trying to respond to this scenario has been to look at the role of doctor/shaman, and explore what that might actually mean in the context of early 21st century western culture. If you are more interested in pursuing other potential roles and expressions for the magician, then that is great. But please actually go and do it, live it, then report back, rather than just muttering vaguely about it.
 
 
darth daddy
17:12 / 05.08.08
Gypsy...do you feel that you a ministering to the "astral body" or "body of light" of clients, or are these meaningless new age concepts to you?
 
 
Bruno
19:17 / 05.08.08
Hahaha, fair enough and thanks for that criticism! I apologize for insulting you. Your explanation of Doctor made a lot of sense to me. I will try and get a longer post together later this week.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:13 / 06.08.08
Gypsy...do you feel that you a ministering to the "astral body" or "body of light" of clients, or are these meaningless new age concepts to you?

I perhaps wouldn't go as far as to call them "meaningless new age concepts", but I'm not sure if I believe in their literal existence either. If I'm doing something like a cleansing or uncrossing work for a client, then to some extent you could describe that process through the lens of treating the astral body if you wanted to. If I'm doing something like a helping a client find work or something practical like that, then the astral body doesn't really come into it that much. Why?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:17 / 06.08.08
Hahaha, fair enough and thanks for that criticism! I apologize for insulting you. Your explanation of Doctor made a lot of sense to me. I will try and get a longer post together later this week.

Cheers, no worries. Will look forward to your later post.
 
 
darth daddy
01:51 / 07.08.08
While I don't have adequate language to describe my concepts...I've been practicing acting "astrally" while acting contemporaneously in a "physical" sense, learning you need to do both....Traditional medicine allegedly works only on the physical, rational, empirical side... Frankly interested in the "dichotomy" of physical and astral.

Perhaps thread rot...but questioning whether other practioners find such a dichotomy useful or trite....
 
  
Add Your Reply