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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Hellboy 2

  
 
Aha! I am Klarion
18:58 / 12.07.08
Did anyone see this?

I thought it was visually arresting in parts but largely left me cold. There is just some truly horrendous acting in the film (really just line readings...there are also moments when the actors are really on). Also the film has all sorts of weird pacing issues and nonsensical plot elements that pop-up out of nowhere.

I felt like there was a lot of beautiful activity on screen, but with little emotional impact.

Given how good del Toro's foreign languages films are, I think this might be due to a language problem where the director just has a poor ear for English dialogue...then again he might just have too many toys to play with.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
19:59 / 12.07.08
I've only heard good things so far, but I'm going to see it tomorrow so I'll have more to say on the subject then.
 
 
CameronStewart
21:32 / 13.07.08
Yeah, Zibarro nails it for me - the movie has some absolutely first-rate production design, all the sets, costumes, creatures, etc were all really inspired and beautiful, and some of the action scenes are really fun...but the storyline is just a muddled mess and I ended up not really caring about it at all.
 
 
Mark Parsons
00:02 / 14.07.08
Wow. My take is 180 degrees. I thought it was a huge, massive tectonic improvement over the first movie, which felt lumpy and flat, pacing-wise, IMO. I thought that H2 zipped along at a brisk and engaging pace, and was charming and colorful to boot. Loved that the Prince was not a one-note villain (Rasputin's sin in H1). Overall, I thought it to be a wonderfully oddball summer monster movie, one full of heart and rich spectacle.

Speaking of spectacle, what GdT did with 80 million is eye poppoing, amazing, etc, esp when you consider that IRON MAN came in at 140 mill, for instance. Somebody did a breakdown of genre/comics movie budgets and H2 was the low man on the totem pole, yet, when compared with the other films, it "almost" looks like a 200 million dollar movie.

If I had any quibbles, it is that the end beat was a bit sudden. I looked at the script book and it contains an unshot final scene that was to set up H3 brilliantly. Alas, it was cut for $$$ reasons.

Cameron: what did you feel was muddled about the story?
 
 
CameronStewart
01:05 / 14.07.08
I just thought that there were so many glaring inconsistencies that really started to get on my nerves.


SPOILY SPOILY






One of the big ones was the link between Nuada and Nuala. It's dinstinctly established that they not only share injury, but also knowledge - Nuala is brought to the BPRD and she says "My brother will come for me" and Abe replies that the BPRD facility is secret and protected, and Nuala says "but I know where it is, so then my brother knows where it is." Sure enough, Nuada finds the BPRD building. Then, not even 10 minutes later, she hides her piece of the crown in a book and Nuada can't find it. Also, why is he threatening Abe with harming her, when it will also harm himself?

Why exactly did Johann abruptly and inexplicably have a change of heart and agree to take Hellboy, Liz and Abe to Ireland? I think he literally says "I'll tell you later" and then it's never mentioned again, which is just unforgivable storytelling. For that matter why did they even go to Ireland? I know that it's where the Golden Army is kept but WHY Ireland? It seemed like an arbitrary location that was unimportant three minutes after they arrive. Why do they specifically mention The Giant's Causeway as their destination and then not go there?

Why, after Hellboy smashes Johann's glass helmet, does he leak out but then assume a humanoid form and walk away, singing merrily? Why is he even in the containment suit at all? Why is he shown back in the undamaged suit in the very next scene? (In anticipation of the "he has more than one suit" response, this is never actually established - in fact it is stated that the deceased Prof Broom built it, and it looks very aged, suggesting there is only one - and so is not valid. It's No Prize territory, the audience having to take it upon themselves to explain gaps in the storytelling.) Why, when taking control of one of the Golden Robots, does Johann not just take over another when it is destroyed instead of returning to his suit and standing inactive by the sidelines for the rest of the movie?

How can a human and a demon from Hell HAVE A BABY?

Speaking of babies, why does Hellboy not take two seconds to hand off that baby to her mother, or even someone else, before clambering up a rickety sign hanging from the side of a building to fight the plant elemental? It's completely contrived "drama" in the action, it doesn't make a lick of sense.




I didn't hate the movie but this stuff and a lot more made me not care for the story. I agree that Del Toro made the most of the budget in startlingly impressive fashion and it looks truly brilliant. I'm eager to see his Hobbit.
 
 
pony
01:07 / 14.07.08
I enjoyed this immensely while watching it, and still think it does "fun summer spectacle" better than anything I've seen in a while. In hindsight, though, neither of the romantic plot-points really moved me in any way, and were a bit clumsy about their task of moving the plot along from one bit to the next.
 
 
Saint Keggers
01:50 / 14.07.08
I have to agree with Cameron and Zibarro and for all those reasons.

But why were Liz's flames not blue like in the first movie? Was there a reason given in either the film or comic?
 
 
Mark Parsons
02:48 / 14.07.08
SPOILERS











Rebuttals!

Hmm. You got me on the book thing, although maybe she did it REALLY QUICKLY, thus fooling her brother (like the "three second rule" involving dropped pacifiers). And I assumed Nuada could withstand more pain that his sister, hence the situation with Abe. "It'll hurt me to cut my sister, but it will hurt her and you worse."

As for Johan; replacement suit, maybe not, but replacement glass? Why not? And I assumed the suit makes it easier for Johan to live a normalish life (twiddling knobs and ipod controls), which is why he prefers it to his nekkid ecto-form. As to his change of heart, it is abrupt, but I assumed that he was simply siding with the freaks over the human suits. I was curious about that story he mentioned.

Why Ireland? Fairy Tuatha de Danaan Land, although it seemed a bit obvious.

Why didn't Johan inhabit another GA robot and stand about? I think budget is one reason, futility another (we're about to learn that a broken GA unit is not defeated).

And why can't a human and a demon have a baby? That's how HB got here in the comics!

I take your overall points though. Different strokes, etc.

I'm going to take a 12 year old family freind to see it this week and will be curious as to what he thinks.
 
 
CameronStewart
03:48 / 14.07.08

KEEP ON SPOILIN'





Hmm. You got me on the book thing, although maybe she did it REALLY QUICKLY, thus fooling her brother (like the "three second rule" involving dropped pacifiers).And I assumed Nuada could withstand more pain that his sister, hence the situation with Abe. "It'll hurt me to cut my sister, but it will hurt her and you worse."

Is that a line from the movie? I don't remember him saying that. If it's just your surmise then you're No-Prizing.

As for Johan; replacement suit, maybe not, but replacement glass? Why not? And I assumed the suit makes it easier for Johan to live a normalish life (twiddling knobs and ipod controls), which is why he prefers it to his nekkid ecto-form.

Again, No-Prizing. Actually they went to the trouble of establishing that Johann can manipulate objects by leaving the suit, probably with greater dexterity than within it. It was just a bizarrely edited sequence of events - his helmet is smashed, he forms a humanoid shape and exits the room merrily, leaving the suit behind, and then a shot or two later (and the passage of time is apparently brief) he's in a different location, occupied with building model furniture (?), and he's in his undamaged suit. I get that all kinds of stuff could have happened off-camera but it felt like weird editing, like a continuity hiccup (speaking of weird editing see also Nuada/Nuala's vanishing nosebleed early in the film).

As to his change of heart, it is abrupt, but I assumed that he was simply siding with the freaks over the human suits. I was curious about that story he mentioned.

Yeah, so was I, and when they didn't ever bring it up again it felt like incredibly shoddy writing.

Why Ireland? Fairy Tuatha de Danaan Land, although it seemed a bit obvious.

Yeah but the court of the Faerie King or whatever it was was in Manhattan! If the army was in hibernation under Ireland, why was the kingdom relocated to the bowels of New York City? It just didn't seem to make any sense other than cheap convenience for the story.

Why didn't Johan inhabit another GA robot and stand about? I think budget is one reason, futility another (we're about to learn that a broken GA unit is not defeated).

We (and Hellboy) learned that in the very beginning of the movie, during the prologue. Johann's fight scene, while admittedly exciting, ultimately served no purpose to the story.

And why can't a human and a demon have a baby? That's how HB got here in the comics!

I admit I don't remember that part of the comics history - but again, if it's not in the movie text then you can't expect the audience to understand that. The friends with whom I saw the film, none of whom are familiar with the comics, were all flabbergasted by the pregnancy plot point. I can believe that Hellboy can be in love with a human woman and even vice versa, but it's a huge stretch to accept that he could impregnate her. It's like Ann Darrow announcing she's having King Kong's child.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
14:14 / 14.07.08
On the comics page you can always pick out a Mignola monster -- on the screen, you can say the same of Del Toro.

The movie had things wrong with it, quite a few, but it did enough things right that I really enjoyed it. First off, managing to make Liz effective (for the most part -- they still managed to have Hellboy doing all the work because he's the title character while the BPRD just, ah, stands around in some sequences, regardless of what's going on) after putting her through the Mignola-patented "Liz loses her soul and is a damsel" mess of the first movie, and managing to do so while she's pregnant. Neither she or Abe were sidelined and got to make major decisions that affected the plot.

Okay, Abe moved the plot by being a big dumb idiot, but I think that had more to do with the Hellboy brand not really taking to romance very well -- it's not a plot element I associate with the comics and it often feels a bit awkward. I'm not sure Mignola's very strong with it in general.

(That said, there's sort of an interesting thing going on with Abe and Nuala's dynamic -- "Me hero, you damsel!" that follows along with how Hellboy and Liz were in the first movie, while HB and Liz have moved on to "Me hero! You hero!" in this one).

The Troll market and the Golden Army's hiding place were very good, particularly the maybe-fallen-angel-fairy's surgery and the prophecy therein. Designs were great in these sections, and we managed have not-irritating prophecy talk (wherein Liz makes the major decision, and free will is implied rather than shouted about).

I liked the stop-motion (fake or real) of the fairy tale at the beginning.

Lots of bits like the auction at the beginning, in rare occult artifacts, were great. It's nice that they've clearly and quietly established differences between our world and the movie's. I still don't like that the BPRD has always been covert, though; one aspect of the comics that I love is that everybody knows who Hellboy is and for the most part don't really "notice" he's a big red guy. I not hugely happy with making them into hated-and-feared X-territory, though I did keep thinking they reminded me of the Doom Patrol.

Nice to see Johann, if only so they could have their "classic elements" Fantastic Four moment. I liked most of the scenes with him even if I found the motivation shift a bit much -- "You must follow my orders! / well, okay, let's go against the bosses." A rough note for me.

Steam-powered fairy robots!

Felt like it was almost more of a BPRD movie than a Hellboy one, almost. I liked that, and I liked the four making their move with the Bureau at the end, which would make for an interesting third movie.

Still digesting a lot of the flick, so probably more later.
 
 
Mark Parsons
16:05 / 14.07.08
Cameron: That Nuada line was my invention. I am definitely No-Prizing in most of my responses...

Johan: yes, he can manipulate objects as ectoplasm. What I meant to suggest (and did so poorly) is that the suit makes him feel human. He can pick up objects instead of (presumably) making them levitate or whatnot.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:56 / 24.07.08
I just saw this last night and really enjoyed, thought it was pretty terrific overall. Not earth-shakingly amazing, but a really great, fun, action/adventure movie. I thought del Toro (and Perlman, and cast) did a fantastic job with it.

As for why Ireland, when the Troll Market was in Manhattan? If the faerie world used to be all over the globe, why is it surprising that there would be key faerie locations all over the world? Plus, given the history and lore associated with Europe/the "Old World" and faerie/mystical stuff, why are you surprised that it's somewhere like Ireland? Aren't they allowed to have the Troll Market be in Manhattan and the Golden Army be kept in Ireland? I thought this was cool, if only to see the kind of landscapes that Mignola has drawn in the comics (European/Scottish rolling hills with various standing stones scattered through the area). Also enjoyed hearing the sort-of/I-guess-old-school-Celtic/Gaelic that the old king spoke at the beginning.

>> Hmm. You got me on the book thing...

As for the 'why didn't the brother know where the sister hid the crown piece?', I thought it was because the feelings she had for Abe were so deep-seated that she was able to somehow keep them protected/hidden, thus the thoughts associated with Abe (the book of Tennyson poetry) were thoughts she was able to keep hidden as well. Sure, they don't say that in the script so you could say 'No-Prizing,' but 'No-Prizing' seems like too easy an accusation to lob at things that aren't explicitly stated in every movie but which are still reasonable to infer.

Also, the song duet Abe & Hellboy: priceless. Everyone loved it. Audience howled with laughter. Also classic Hellboy: Hellboy drinking a beer in the shower in a self-pity party. Various snarky Hellboy retorts. Love the BIG BABY gun. I see what Cam is saying about Hellboy not passing off the baby during the fight, but it's an action movie, I'll allow it. Not to make excuses for an action movie because it's an action movie, but this seems to me hardly an egregious plot issue worth getting up in arms about.

Loved the Lovecraftian cool-design plant elemental. And when the brother says 'this is the last of its kind, the earth shall never see its like again,' I actually kind of felt some sympathy for it, and appreciation for all these magical creatures that were all but extinct.

Krauss was hilarious; great character. Shows how much can be accomplished with just body language and a voice-over. I'm assuming that Krauss is in the comics too, but I haven't read enough of Hellboy comics on any kind of regular basis to know (but will do a wikipedia soon on this and to refresh myself on all things Hellboy).

The romance stuff worked for me, although wasn't deeply moved by it -

reminded you of the Doom Patrol - ha! I thought it was a nice twist to have the theme of a summer blockbuster be 'don't fall into the trap in life of wanting EVERYONE to like & admire you'...especially if you're a huge red-skinner devil-man. Good advice to follow.

I had forgotten about the plot point of Hellboy eventually being agent of the apocalypse - it felt kinda scary to me as an audience member with a more-than-cursory-but-hardly-expert knowledge of the character, like this beer-guzzling, wisecracking cuddly lovable guy who sings love songs with his fish pal Abe will someday, somehow, bring about the end of the world, perhaps willingly, returning to his eeeevil Devil roots. "Knowing that - do you still wish to save him?" And: "Now, give him something to live for." Also enjoyed the simple old-school magic trick/no special effects of the Death Angel saying 'ohhhkay, then here's that shard out of his chest, it is done.'

As for how a human and a devil man have babies, come on, it's a fun, wacky, sci-fi/fantasy movie. Stretch a bit with us here.

Loved the legless troll guy who had created the Golden Army. Very fun character.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
15:20 / 24.07.08
Also enjoyed the simple old-school magic trick/no special effects of the Death Angel saying 'ohhhkay, then here's that shard out of his chest, it is done.'

Very Mignola as well, when half the magic has just sort of happened, no Kirby dots, just like blinking. Which is a nice detail, blending it with the very del Toro design of the healer hirself.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:41 / 24.07.08
Also, the opening sequence with young Hellboy was both freakish and endearing/cute. "Howdy Doody's real!!" (although I question Young Hellboy's enormous teeth, which made it look almost as if the child actor's jaw/mouth could not or would not move when the child actor spoke his lines -- seeing SOME jaw/mouth movement on the part of the kid would have been a little more helpful and less distracting)
 
 
Aha! I am Klarion
16:53 / 24.07.08
I actually think that the film owes a lot to Spanish and European children films. Unfortunately, I can't remember which web site I saw this on, but there was a video about weird Spanish (i believe) children's fantasy films. In the video the host/commentator/reviewer, showed clips from a film where a group of monsters (who aren't really evil) fight some kind evil elf king or something or other. Anyway, despite its terrible production values, the clips (and the implied story) reminded me tonal, thematically, and synesthesically of Toro's production. Perhaps the reason the film seemed off to me visually and tonally is because Toro's lexicon is based off of several under-seen under-appreciated classics or bizarre, childhood favorites. However, I don't think that the style of the films I believe he is referencing particularly gibes with the Hellboy of the comic.

Anyway, to me the clock-work warriors (or any of the clockwork motifs in the film) don't fit very well into the Hellboy universe (IMHO). In Mignola's artwork everything seems very organic. Even a statue seems alive with biology. Del Toro's version seems too gilded and colorful to me.


Getting to the point, the market scene didn't work for me, because despite being visually arresting, it seemed too light and cute--too similar to the set pieces in "Men in Black." Rather than being engrossing or significantly of its own idiom, the twists Toro added to his rude-mechanicals seemed too self-conscious in their distance from that other paranormal detective movie.

My preference would be for the film to look more like Ridley Scott's "Alien" or "Legend" (think about it) than like "Babes in Toyland" with chlamydia (which sounds really cool when I phrase it that way, actually).

Despite my problems with the visual style, the film (while better than the first one) doesn't seem very good or particularly deep. Then again, maybe the only reason I am so hard on it is because TDK was the first big Hollywood action movie I have seen in years that didn't suck significantly on some level.
 
  
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