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The PC Police - monster or myth?

  
 
Neon Snake
12:13 / 03.07.08
I'm after a little help here.

Background: On other forums that I frequent, some people feel very little compunction about describing things that they don't like as 'gay', 'retarded' etc. When asked to use different and less offensive terms, they sometimes respond with lines such as 'I hate all this Politically Correct bullshit!' or 'Here come the PC Police!' (paraphrasing my own).


My personal view is that, actually, the PC Police do not exist. 'The PC Police' is merely a device made up as an argument that brooks no response, and paints the opponent as an overly sensitive type who cannot handle certain words.

However, I'm aware that there is a part of me that wants this to be the case, to make it easier for me to answer with 'Nonsense. There's no such no thing. You've simply been called out on being rude and obnoxious, and instead of dealing with it and apologising, are trying to excuse your rudeness by portraying yourself as victim.'

So, what I'm after is this: Are there any solid examples where the 'PC Police' have actually intervened in 'real life', to the obvious detriment of common sense? And if so, is it a common enough occurance to warrant the immense negativity felt towards 'political correctness'?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:08 / 03.07.08
Well, the obvious answer is that there is no such organisation as "The PC Police" - there isn't any organisation which is dedicated to enforcing standards of speech. There is an organisation that will take action if that speech shades into incitement to violence, but that's the actual Police.


There's a long discussion of Political Correctness here, which might be a place to start. The term and its uses comes up quite a lot around here - a google search reveals a lot of discussion of varying levels of utility.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:32 / 03.07.08
Even if innocent people do get accused of racism, sexism, and so on - something that happens rarely, if at all - it's probably a cock-up rather than an evil plan. So it's not as if there's a 'police force' - an organised body of people with aims and objectives - involved.

That's one problem with the phrase. Another is that it seems to suggest that only the criticising of a racist term is political, whereas the use of it isn't. Which is quite obviously wrong - 'p*ki' and 'asian' do not mean the same thing, the first being negative and the second being neutral - using the word 'p*ki' to describe a person is to put a value judgement on the person simply by mentioning them, rather than constructing a proper argument.
 
 
Neon Snake
14:26 / 03.07.08
there is no such organisation as "The PC Police"

Yes, please substitute my "The PC Police" with any phrase along the lines of "The PC Brigade", "PC Gone Mad", or anything else which implies that there exists a (non-official or official) group of people which come out in vocal force whenever someone sends a Christmas Card which mentions Christmas and decry it as discriminatory.

There's a long discussion of Political Correctness here

That's great, Haus. My initial scan indicates that that thread might well be exactly what I'm looking for, and grant me a few more facts to inform my previously slightly knee-jerky reaction to being accused of being PC Mad. Cheers.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:36 / 04.07.08
'The PC police' is just something that wankers say to try and defend their wankerishness. It seems to be dying down somewhat in favour of claims that being rich, male, white, heterosexual and part of the generally priviledged classes of society is a minority position and therefore should be given all the power they think has been leeched away from them in favour of the poor, underpriviledged or anyone they don't like, see 'Fathers4Justice'.
 
 
Neon Snake
13:26 / 04.07.08
That's my response, too, along with "so, before the phrase PC, what did you call people who called you out on your rudeness back then?"

But I want to be sure that I'm not making the same knee-jerk mistake that they're making, just because I want this to be true.

I'm looking for the opposite side of the argument, if you like, for examples where these mythical PCPo-leece have actually done something that is comepletely over-the-top and unnecessarily oversensitive in the name of Political Correctness.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:31 / 04.07.08
Well, then, we need to define who the PC Police are whose actions you are looking for - can it be anyone who does anything, or are looking specifically for gauleiters whose role it is to police the actions of others, and if so in what relationship - their co-workers? Members of the citizen body? And then we need to define what "in the name of Political Correctness" means. If you mean has anyone ever been prevented from doing or saying something by an external body tasked with the maintenance of political correctness, for the avowed purpose of advancing the aims of political correctness... no. I don't imagine that has ever happened.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
13:53 / 04.07.08
The PC Police are a sub-program entered into our conscious minds by school and media.

This is actually a positive thing, however sinister I may make it sound, a necessary reflex for living in a multicultural society. If the programming is working, one is mindful of the sensibilities of others and provokes a "Do not unto others what you would not want done to yourselves." response. Especially when one may not recognize that which may be hurtful or demeaning to another from a different cultural background. The knife should/must cut both ways to work, though...

When the program isn't running, any racism, biggotry, and general arsiness resulting from nurture/nature shines through.

I used to hate the Idea of Political Correctness as I thought it akin to censorship, but I realised that I was one of the most PC people I know, for the most part (Not always, I have faults...) and now I realise that it is a necessity for neighbourly coexistance.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:02 / 04.07.08
Except...

1) The media do not inculcate "political correctness". The media, as a rule, highlight examples of what they have decided is "political correctness" and criticise it.

2) What you are describing is simply politeness, isn't it? Politeness, tolerance, good nature, consideration for others. What's political about that?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:05 / 04.07.08
So, I think the problem I'm having with answering this is conceptual - the posit of "I don't think the PC Police exist, but does anyone know of any examples of the PC Police doing stuff?" It's tricky.

So, let's take "the PC Police" to mean "a group, either independent or part of a larger organisation, that either is charged with the duty to police standards of behaviour within or without an organisation, or has taken it upon itself to do same without instruction, and does so with the intention of preventing a minority group or community from feeling that they are the victims of discrimination. I can think of some recent situations where such a group's existance has been posited, and we can look at those.
 
 
Neon Snake
15:13 / 04.07.08
So, I think the problem I'm having with answering this is conceptual - the posit of "I don't think the PC Police exist, but does anyone know of any examples of the PC Police doing stuff?" It's tricky.

Yes, it is. And that's exactly why I posed the question, if that makes any sense, because I know I'm not objective on the issue.
Essentially, I'm asking if anyone can prove me wrong about an assumption which I may hold a little too dearly.

So, let's take "the PC Police" to mean "a group, either independent or part of a larger organisation, that either is charged with the duty to police standards of behaviour within or without an organisation, or has taken it upon itself to do same without instruction, and does so with the intention of preventing a minority group or community from feeling that they are the victims of discrimination". I can think of some recent situations where such a group's existance has been posited, and we can look at those.

That's a better summation than I suspect I would ever have managed, even with prompting.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:25 / 04.07.08
Thanks - you're very kind. I have to go now, but hope to catch up later.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
16:27 / 04.07.08
So, let's take "the PC Police" to mean "a group, either independent or part of a larger organisation, that either is charged with the duty to police standards of behaviour within or without an organisation, or has taken it upon itself to do same without instruction, and does so with the intention of preventing a minority group or community from feeling that they are the victims of discrimination".

It may be a handy definition for making posits, but broadly used can describe groups ranging from the ADL to Scientologists. The PC Police would prevent ALL minority groups or communities from feeling they are the victims of descrimination, no?

I've mentioned in other threads that I come from a very racist society; Quebec. There has been a large PC backlash in this Province recently. Just google "Quebec" & "Reasonable Accomodations" for some examples of the stupidity I live with: A community "officially" banning the stoning of women... (It's never happened there, they just wanted to make an Anti-Muslim point...) My point is that Quebec, for the most part, is sheltered from Mulitculturism. They have closed themselves from that which they percieve as not being Pur Laine. (Lit. Pure Wool) They have the support of their comminity in their racism because other cultures are truly foreign to them. They are not PC because they never needed to be.

The "PC Police", conceivably, might be thought of a defence or survival mechanism for intergrating into multiculturism.

My mentioning the media enforcing PC behaviour has been shot down, and in many cases it's true, especially considering "news" outlets like Fox (Although I remember PC being encouraged as hip and trendy in the early 90's) but I still think that there are Some Media that support and encourage PC thinking.

As for the actual "Policing" of PC behaviour, I think we take that upon ourselves. The people who are resentful of the Idea are having trouble integrating into a multicultural society. They feel that they have to fight against it in order to continue their cultural dominance. They feel threatened and don't like to share.

Is there an actual PC-Police force with uniforms, whistles and batons? No.

Are there people who go too far in their PC leanings? Probably.

I think that when certain people feel they are being put upon, or are forced into a new paradigm, they tend to lash out. These are the ones who invented the concept of a PC Police. Some act out of arrogant ignorance, some out of fearful ignorance. They all feel justified, however, in their beliefs of "PC going Mad" and will use it as the way to try win arguements. I've certainly felt that way and have used the same arguement and have needed to either step back and look at the arguement from a different perspective, or have needed to be called on my own bullshit by someone wiser than myself. Some people will sadly remain adamant in their ignorance.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:14 / 04.07.08
I am no longer young, freektemple, and my memory isn't what it was, but I have a feelign that you might be misremembering. I suggest reading the previous thread and asking yourself if you can really remember your society as a whole encouraging you to be more politically correct in the nineties. I have limited experience of Canada but I have never encountered such a history.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
19:30 / 04.07.08
Phew... I read page one of the old PC thread and I'm exhausted. Thanks Haus, I appreciate the reminder and should have done it before when you posted the link. I will return later and read the rest at some point.

I knew there's an education in Barbelith...

I do remember being chided in the late 80's early 90's for "Not being very Politically Correct"... I thought of myself as being "edgy" for standing up against (percieved) censorship while (deep, buried) in my heart still supporting the "spirit" of PC and understanding the necessity. In retrospect my anti PC attitude was in the majority even though I didn't know it at the time.

I was honestly naive when someone would say something along the lines of, "They are not called black anymore, they're African-American." *wink* (I never really caught on to the *wink*...)

Stupidly I would take the bait and follow up with, "Why shouldn't they be called Black? It's an honest description... I'm white, he's black... It's only descriptive language. Besides: Lenny Bruce!!!!!" (I'll have to plead ignorance on this one because I honestly couldn't see the hurt in my words)

I bought into the whole "PC Gone Maaaaaad!" hype because of how it was presented, how it was spun.

Critical thinking is taught(imho), not just learned, or gleaned, or intuited. Exposure is the key...

Yup, you're right Haus, looking back the whole PC movement was sabotaged from the get-go. While the Premise and intentions were sound, the term itself was hijacked and perverted until it was forced to look like something ugly. It was both bluntly and subtly done (Blunt for critical thinkers, subtle to those who weren't) and most people (Myself included) ended up throwing out the baby with the bath-water.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:35 / 04.07.08
This has already been said, but back when I was a young Stoat we used to call such behaviour "common courtesy", and having a go at people for breaking the unwritten rules was called "telling people not to be so fucking rude".

So in answer to the initial question, the PC Police do not exist. However, there are people who would quite like it if we didn't act like absolute wankers at each other. I guess I'm one of them. And THEN there are people who find that entire "preferring people not to be wankers to one another" thing oppressive, because they believe that they should have the right to treat other people like shit, or at the very least use terminology which means they can FEEL like they're treating other people like shit, and make said people feel like they've been treated like shit, without even having to actually do it. And they bring up the "PC Police" thing because they feel that by pretending to be oppressed by an imaginary group they can then justify any wankerish things they say or do towards other people who are, well, actually real and not imaginary. Often, though not exclusively, those who actually ARE oppressed.

The people who do that are, generally, wankers.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:56 / 04.07.08
So, thinking about this, I have plucked the first three incidents from Neon Snake's homeland that sprang to mind. I realise that this is unscientific, but it's a discussion-starter.

Very recently, the Dundee police published a poster publicising their non-emergency phone line. The poster featured Rebel, a German shepherd puppy who had been training as a police dog. Rebel is pretty darned adorable:



However! All is not well. This article from the Telegraph explains it all. Except, you know, it doesn't. It does say some interesting things, though. For example:

But some Muslims in the Dundee area have reportedly been upset by the image

Funny thing is, the Telegraph is a newspaper.That is, it is a thing that reports. If these Muslims have reportedly been upset, it is the job of the paper to record it. Compare and contrast the mild befuddlement registered in the local papera.

So, according to that paper, councillor Mohammed Asif was the source of the complaint - the PC policeman, if you like. But, actually, he seems quite reasonable about it as well:

My concern was that it is not welcomed by all communities, with the dog on the cards. It was probably a waste of resources going to these communities. The police should have understood.

"Since then the police have explained that it was an oversight on their part and that if they had seen it was going to cause upset they would not have done it.

"People who have shops just will not put up the postcard. But the police have said to me that it was simply an oversight and they did not seek to offend or upset."

So, he thinks the Police messed up, but, you know, they said sorry, and it was just an oversight. The Police say something very similar, really. That they should have run it past their diversity people, but that they forgot, and they are sorry about that.

If anything, then, the PC Police are the Police themselves - specifically, the Police's diversity advisors, but actually, far from controlling the agenda, they were totally forgotten about. No harm seems to have been done, though, ultimately. The only people who seem to be really agitated, in fact, are the readers of the Daily Telegraph. Who are a bunch of fucking nutbars.

So, PC Police? Not so much. Diversity advisors to the actual Police, yes, but that's a bit different. Direct intervention? Also, not so much. Lunatic abreaction by Islamophobes? Oh yes.
 
 
Neon Snake
08:32 / 05.07.08
So, when one looks at the facts (or at least what the police themselves have said about the matter), we see that there are apparently no plans to have the postcards withdrawn, but that they're considering issuing alternatives to anyone who wants them. Arguably, this is an exercise in common courtesy rather than bowing to the demands of teh extrem1stz.

So, this is an example of the papers fanning the political corrrectness flame, rather than an example of political correctness gone mad.


So, my conviction in my intial hypothesis, my null hypothesis if you like, grows stronger. So far, plenty of support in a situation where it would only take one example to falsify it. Great.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:11 / 05.07.08
Well, it's hard to prove a negative. I've been called away, but I have a few other thoughts on this - will write more fully when I can.
 
 
Neon Snake
10:40 / 05.07.08
But it can be disproved. In this case, fairly easily, by providing a solid example of "political correctness" resulting in poor policy. Actual poor policy, that is, and not just poor policy according to the media.

I, of course, am hoping that it isn't disproved; the fact that no-one has disproved it thus far gives me some hope.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
11:36 / 05.07.08
Well, if you really really want one, there was a thing a while back about a council (if I remember correctly) banning the Three Little Pigs story because Muslims might be offended.

Except, y'know, no actual Real Live Muslims were actually asked about it, and when people decided that might be a good idea, the answer was generally that it was just a bit stupid.

So there's something which might kinda fit your criteria - something a bit stupid being done in an attempt to avoid offence. I'm not really sure how any such example disproves anything, though.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:24 / 05.07.08
In this case, fairly easily, by providing a solid example of "political correctness" resulting in poor policy. Actual poor policy, that is, and not just poor policy according to the media.

I don't think so; because even then, who is deciding what is poor policy? This is one problem that you're going to keep having. By definition, somebody who talks about the PC Police is going to have a very different idea of what constitutes a good policy. How about not printing information about local services in a borough with a large Urdu-speaking population, say, in English and Urdu, but only in English, on the grounds that people should speak English if they live in England? Is that good policy, even though it cuts many people off from public services? Or would it be good policy to print multiingual information? OR would that be a waste of money forced on local councils by the PC Police?

Honestly, if you start from the idea that there is an entity called "Political Correctness", with agents seeking to alter policy, you've already surrendered a huge amount of ground. That's the position that the right wing wants you to hold, but it is by no means inevitable that it should be held.
 
 
Neon Snake
13:24 / 06.07.08
The Three Little Pigs example is a fine one. If it's the one I'm thinking about, then it was changed pre-emptively by a number of schoolteachers, who felt it was better to be safe than sorry.

The reaction was that Muslims felt somewhat bemused by the whole kerfuffle:

But Shaykh Ibrahim Mogra from the Muslim Council of Britain branded the move 'bizarre'.

He said: "The vast majority of Muslims have no problem whatsoever with the Three Little Pigs. It's always been the traditional way of telling the story and I don't see why that should be changed.

"There's an issue about the eating of pork, which is forbidden, but there is no prohibition about reading stories about pigs. This is an unnecessary step."

This is the root of the problem, when a seemingly simple step of trying to avoid offence backfires slightly.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
16:05 / 06.07.08
I'm not sure what problem you're actually talking about, though. The problem of political correctness? Or the problem of a very occasional silly example which allows idiots to claim that the country is controlled by political correctness, perhaps? I suspect that idiots would be idiots regardless of whether there are isolated cases of mild foolishness to pick upon.
 
 
Neon Snake
10:25 / 07.07.08
The problem of political correctness? Or the problem of a very occasional silly example which allows idiots to claim that the country is controlled by political correctness, perhaps?

The second of the two. And you're quite correct, I suspect, that if these idiots were unable to use political correctness as a convenient scapegoat, then they would use something else instead.

Thanks for the responses on this, folks, I realise I'm being particularly rubbish at articulating what I'm trying to get out of it...
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:33 / 08.07.08
Well, let's look again at this:

However, I'm aware that there is a part of me that wants this to be the case, to make it easier for me to answer with 'Nonsense. There's no such no thing. You've simply been called out on being rude and obnoxious, and instead of dealing with it and apologising, are trying to excuse your rudeness by portraying yourself as victim.'

Suppose someone's saying 'There aren't any jobs round here any more, because the immigrants take them all, but I can't say this because of the PC police'. It's not true that immigrants take all the jobs, and it's not true that there are a PC police, but it may be true that there aren't enough jobs to be had. In fact this is true in a lot of places. So the root of what they're saying might not be 'nonsense', and the best way of dealing with the part of what they're saying which is nonsense would be to have sympathy for the actual, real problem (the lack of jobs).

Of course, not everyone who comes out with racist/sexist/homophobic crap is actually anywhere near being in such a desperate situation.
 
  
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