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The Incredible Hulk

 
 
FinderWolf
15:07 / 14.06.08
I am somewhat surprised there's no thread for this already, but I've checked quite a bit and we only had mentions of this movie in the "Coming Soon" thread. So, here we go!

Saw it opening night, and after having read the many reviews that said "It's actually better than you would expect" (given that most of us were going in with very low expectations based on the trailers and such), I still kept my expectations low and figured that all those reviews were probably just embracing the new 'more action! more smashing!!' direction that this non-sequel sequel has been said to have adopted.

Much to my surprise (and I figure I'll hold off on spoilers in this post), the reviews aren't just whistlin' dixie. It's a surprisingly intelligent, solid movie - not just as an action movie, but as a movie. Well-made, well-directed and aside from some clunky silly dialogue during the climactic fight scene from Tim Roth-as-the-Abomination, quite well-written.

As many of you know, Edward Norton rewrote much of Zak Penn's original script, and as a result of Hollywood politics and arcane WGA rules, Norton does not receive any kind of writing credit (which he can't have been happy about). Norton also is famous for being a bit of a control freak and tussling a bit with directors on editing, final cut, overall direction and plot, etc., and The Incredible Hulk' was no exception, with many articles (most notable being the NY Times) about his creative battles with the director (Louis Letterier, if I'm spelling that correctly, don't feel like looking it up, it's Sat. morning at 11:30 am and I'm hungry - who directed TRANSPORTER 2 and who was very happy to have his pitch to be at the helm of the new Hulk movie accepted). I'd be curious to see which Norton-written character development scenes got cut.

It seems that Marvel Studios has now come into a certain formula with their superhero films; strong characterization, anchoring their male lead with a strong deep romance which is the character's lifeline to staying stable and keeping a healthy perspective, great dramatic scenes with heavy-hitter actors, lots of CGI, strong verisimilitude (which word Richard Donner had posted in all caps on the set and pre-production of SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE and which all future superhero films have ignored at their peril) and reality-based treatment, and finally, a liberal amount of silly, clever, funny, just plain comedy scenes that make sense for the characters (Betty & Bruce have one such moment here after a harrowing ride in NYC cab).

Norton does extremely well here, not surprising since many of his roles have been Jekyll/Hyde types. Liv Tyler is more committed than I would have thought to the mostly-cardboard role of Betty, and one scene in which they awkwardly talk to each other, wanting to move closer or embrace, but resisting the impulse, is a terrific example of two strong actors doing their thing. William Hurt is rock-solid as General "Thunderbolt" Ross, and his motivations and regard (or lack thereof) for his daughter's concerns are well-handled.

Tim Roth is great as Emil Blonsky, an out-of-left-field Tim Blake Nelson (the dorky lanky member of the lead trio in O BROTHER, WHERE ART THOU) provides some over-the-top comic relief as Samuel Sterns, who we in the comics world know will become the big-brained villain The Leader, and even bit player new characters like the kindly old pizza-joint owner who adopts a paternal attitude towards Banner work well in the flick.

The battles are handled extremely well, with more attention to consequence than I'd expected, and the beats in the fight/action sequences flow organically from one to the next. Lou Ferrigno apparently provided the voice (mostly grunts and growls and yells) of The Hulk, and of course, lots of cameos from Ferrigno and Beloved Grandmaster Emeritus Stan Lee, as well as Bixby himself in a pseudo-cameo, provide the right amount of nostalgia.

Overall, a far better Hulk movie than I personally expected. I felt invested, the stakes were high, and the actors conveyed the sense of dread regarding the green creature (who most often is referred to, ominously, as "it" throughout the entire film by everyone).

Worth your $11.50/12 and a fun summer ride. Not as good as Iron Man, but a solid 2nd entry for Marvel Studios.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:10 / 14.06.08
oh, and there's an Ultimates (Vol. 1)-inspired bit that comics fans will definitely get a kick out of, and I'm sure somewhere Mark Millar is giggling with delight that they used his idea.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:16 / 14.06.08
and, the Betty/Bruce romance really works here, moreso than in Ang Lee's Hulk movie - mostly because the actors are so strong, and because they found many little charming, subtle gestures that cute, in-love couples do to demonstrate their rapport and their affection for one another. That sentence sounds silly as I read it back, but it's true and it really works here, and also grounds the film further in reality despite the extreme circumstances (a little nudge with your foot to your significant other's foot while sitting opposite each other, a tender smile, etc. despite the fact that you're dealing with enormous green monsters and exploding tanks...)

also, William Hurt's Thunderbolt Ross character is very well-drawn here, as a man who sees things in absolutes and has a tough guy-snarky comment for everything. One major fight sequence shows that he sees obstacles solely as things to throw more and bigger ammunitions at, and that he's a man who always is ready with a strategic battle-plan for any circumstance (which comes off kind of charming in a simple-minded way).
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
18:00 / 15.06.08
I really don't have much to add to Finder's stuff. I went to it hoping it might not suck, and wanting to see Edward Norton do Edward Norton's thing. It actually ended up being everything I could have wanted in a Hulk movie. There was chasing. There was a big monster battle that actually looked a lot better than I expected it to. There was Edward Norton in the shower, and! for, like, the first time ever, a superhero movie final battle didn't end with the big bad getting killed. Which was nice, because villains who manage to survive for 40 years in the comics somehow end up dead after the third fight with the hero, and it annoys me.

So huzzah. It was fun.
 
 
Mug Chum
20:54 / 15.06.08
This was particularly awesome:

-"Where was it bottled?"
-"Monte Verde, Brazil."
-"Get our agency to look for a white man in that factory!!!"

The sheer seriousness in the way his authorative urgency was portrayed just fucking nails the epic lulz. The sleezy guy's portuguese and some other moments were awesome in that way as well but damn if I can remember those moments.

The rest is alright I guess, even if you have to let go of the absurdity-spotter faculties a lot -- even for 'superhero' standards I thought. I don't really understand the Hulk's appeal, but it wasn't awful or anything -- although the last few moments get a bit tiresome by having to look at lifeless CGI brawl and remembering they have Edward Norton and Tim Roth (coolest visual approximation of "Captain America kickassery" yet) in the shelf.

I still find Ang Lee's version far better, both in endless drama as well as action, pacing, acting, editing (seriously).
(I think even that little animated short where Stark, Parker and Banner are kicking giant robot ass was more fun than this in the end).

But I'm still impressed with some of those tremendously beautiful aerial shots of the slums.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
00:05 / 16.06.08
despite the beautiful shots, i hated the brazilian segment. it screwed suspension of disbelief to see such Portuñol spoken in a Portuguese-speaking environment. some extras delivered perfectly, but the bullies and the factory owner were ridiculous. how hard would it have been to get local actors or a better speech coach?
 
 
Seth
00:58 / 16.06.08
I thought was solid, nothing dazzling. That's about all there is to say about it really. Does exactly what it's supposed to, lots of geek easter eggs and set-ups for future continuity and with zero subtext, so there's nothing much to chew over. Marvel Studios is shaping up well, more about craft than art but it's hard to complain when the films are as fun as Hulk and Iron Man.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
14:13 / 16.06.08
i think general reviews - by people online, mostly - are cutting the movie too much slack. expectations were really low or this. but for me it was too standard, too average.

it felt like a 90 minute trailer, all beats and no commitment, so i couldn't care much for the characters. Norton's Banner was not allowed to feel his curse, it felt like a second sequel when the hero is trying to get rid of \ take more advantage of his powers, which are not that incredible for him.

maybe they should have shortened the brazilian segment and invest a bit more in the origin's aftermath until he reached that point.

and they cut out the artic\antartic scene shown in the trailer. there was a rumour Banner would try suicide there and was to find frozen Steve Rogers.
 
 
Dead Megatron
03:35 / 18.06.08
they say there are 70 minutes of extra scenes, to be included in some sort of 'extended' DVD version.

I didn't mind so much the Brazilian segment. It was pretty clear it was there just as background for a good chase scene, which is perfectly fine with me, and the bad Portuguese seem to have been dubbed in the copy I saw to reduce the appaling accent, which was somewhat comic.

In comparison with Ang Lee's Hulk, it's easier to number where both movies are similar* than where they are different, the main which (IMHO) are as follows.

I find Ang Lee's Hulk to be a pretty decent movie. The problem with it, other than the gamma-poodle, and I believe the cause for its limited success, was that it was not really a super-hero movie. It was a monster movie with tragic overtones. You know, like King Kong or Frankstein. Complete with tragic flaw and everything. And, cleverly, the tragic flaw was not simply "anger", as one would first assume (anger is the consequence of the flaw, the "curse"), but, in the case of Banner, was "ignorance" -i.e. he did not know his own origins, which is very bad from the greek classic point of view. Very much like Oedipus, actually. But with lots of things to say about hubris and child abuse (as reflected in General Ross and Banner's crazy scientist father), which is fine. The only real reference to the super-hero ethos, other than the obvious giant green man, evidently, was the much awesome comic book-like split-screen editing, which reminded me from those old static Marvel cartoon and I frakking loved. This Hulk, on the other hand, is a super-hero through and through, with all the right cues and clichés for the genre. It was even an origin movie, though it was the origin not of the main hero, but of his nemesis(es?) Abomination and, more discretely, the Leader. It was simple, direct, adolescent, with no real innovation in story-telling. But it was also fun thanks to the action and visual effects. In those senses, I liked the first Hulk better, but the new one was not at all unpleasant.

The Hulk design in Ang Lee's movie was completely different from the Incredible Hulk. Ang Lee's reference was obviously the comics, with the Shrek-shaped body, the changing of size according to level of rage, the stretchy pants, the leaping miles at a time-level of power. This Hulk reference was the old TV series, including the more human-shaped body, the ripped clothes and the not-so-far fetched leaping. Ang Lee at least had his Hulk face tailored after Banna, while this Hulk looked more like Lou Ferigno than Ed Norton. Both Hulks had a child-like feel to them, expressed in their innocence and body language (Ang Lee's more proeminently so) which I found endearing in the movie as I did in the TV series and and do in some of the comic books. After all, nothing like a "pre-educated" child to display unrelenting, unabridged anger. Overall, I like the new Hulk better, but the old one is cool too.

General Ross' character was also completely different. In Ang Lee's version, he was more honet, more honorable. He did do nasty thing, but only to fix the mess caused by others, and to protect both his country and his daughter, not one over the other. He was thus much more likeable, which was ok, because there was another guy who could play the all-out villain instead of him. In this movie the man was not just responsible for the Hulk creation (birth?), he did so on purpose and is willing, even if only subconsciously (but then again, maybe not so subconsciously) to endanger his own daughter to catch his weapon back and salvage his career. Not so likeable at all (we can even take the "look for the only white guy there" comment to include racism to his list of shortcomings). They are so different characters I can't even tell which I like better. As a person, the answer would be Ross the 1st, duh, but as fictional characters, they are both interesting in their own way.

In short, I like both movies in very different ways.

Oh yeah, and Tim Roth as Emil Blonsky (the man, not the CGI monster) was aces. In some senses, this movie was as much about him and his freaky powertrip-y search for self-damnation as it was about Hulk/Banner and his desperate search for purification




* which is zero, except maybe for the Elisabeth Ross character, who in both movies has the sole function of being there to provide Banner with a reason to actively seek a cure and, ocassionaly, to 'calm to beast'. All very meh, unfortunatelly. They could have done better with this character.
 
 
deja_vroom
16:28 / 18.06.08
Neat little analysis, Better Be; Over here (responding to the thread's abstract) it registered as a lazy snore, to the point that I think that if I go back to re-watch Ang Lee's take, I'll probably like it better, even if at the time I didn't think much of it. I think Robert Downey Jr. stole the movie in the 1 minute he appeared on screen.
 
 
Liger Null
01:51 / 19.06.08
Saw this yesterday, and I was VERY pleasantly surprised. I have yet to see the Ang Lee version (I didn't like the way the chew toy-I mean CG-Hulk looked in the previews I saw, so I skipped it) so I can't really compare the two. This new Hulk was still a bit overly CG for my taste, but it was an improvement nonetheless.

Liv Tyler was cute-especially in the part where she goes off on the cabbie. I agree with Finderwolf about the little gestures between Betty and Bruce. The nods to the series were fun, and Lou Ferrigno looks remarkably well-preserved for a guy in his late fifties.

I liked how Banner was studying yoga and meditation in an attempt to control his emotions; it seemed to me like a very logical thing for him to do.

And Edward Norton was TEH SEXX when his eyes got all green and glowy, especially [+] [-]Spoiler

I hear tell that Norton isn't contracted for a sequel, which is a bit of a shame.
 
 
Dead Megatron
09:25 / 19.06.08
I liked how Banner was studying yoga and meditation in an attempt to control his emotions; it seemed to me like a very logical thing for him to do.

I don't know if you know this, but the guy playing the "yoga" master was actually Rickson Gracie, famous Brazilian jiu-jitsu master and ultimate fighter champion. (he's also in his fifties)

A fitting guru for the Hulk, I guess
 
 
Liger Null
12:37 / 19.06.08
Cool!
 
 
FinderWolf
13:04 / 19.06.08
I find myself hoping that the sequel incorporates the Rick Jones character in some substantive way - a supporting character/sidekick for The Hulk would be a good addition to the movie version Hulk...
 
 
Dead Megatron
14:25 / 19.06.08
IN the presence of Elisabeth Ross' character, Tick Jone's would be reduntant, wouldn't it? Besides, it always bothered me the story that a teenage rebel would break into a military base and the scientist in charge of the experiment would leave the control room, run all the way to the kid just in time to trhrow him in a ditch (better then Indiana's refrigerator?) and being blasted by the explosion's gamma radiation, all the while not a single MP officer shows up. It may have worked in 1960's comic books, but not in a 21st century movie. Jones's function in the comis, more than providing Hulk with a sidekick, was to provide the reader with someone to identify with.

On the other hand, if Marvel is really going through with this Marvel Movie Universe thing, it would be interesting to have a recurring character who shows up in every movie and plays second banana to every major character. Just like Rick" the generic sidkick" Jones does in the comics.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:34 / 19.06.08
well, Rick Jones would be the only friend Banner has (who's not a love interest making gooey eyes at him all the time) - and the only other real supporting character besides Betty and Gen. "Thunderbolt" Ross & assorted villains.
 
 
Liger Null
19:33 / 19.06.08
They could cast Shia Labeouf. He seems to be the guy the big studios turn to whenever they need a generic sidekick.
 
 
penitentvandal
19:46 / 19.06.08
Yes, Rickson Gracie as the 'yoga' teacher was a bit of a funny credit. I'm no expert, but I don't think most schools of yoga involve picking people up and chucking them about. I thought it kind of made more sense for Banner to be learning BJJ so he could beat people up without having to hulk out, and I was a bit disappointed that they didn't work it into the final battle with the Rothbomination.

It actually sort of always annoys me that more superstrong heroes don't actually learn martial arts. Superman, for instance. Everyone on the planet knows that all you need to make Kal-El your Big Blue Bitch is about 5 carat's worth of kryptonite, but does the Last Gimp of Krypton ever think 'Hmm, maybe I should get Batman to teach me some moves so that I no longer have to worry about getting my ass handed to me by a five year old girl wearing kryptonite braces'? No, he never does, because he's superstrong, and it's not like there's fucking shitloads of kryptonite everywhere ohhangonwaitnotherefuckingis.
 
 
Triplets
22:11 / 19.06.08
To be fair, it's hard to do jujitsu, bat-fu or the batusi when you're suffering from the equivalent of instant radiotherapy sickness.

Better yet, go drink as much Kryptonite yourself until you can't stand before bed. Then, in the morning, go try some jujitsu on a five year old.
 
 
Tabitha Tickletooth
22:44 / 19.06.08
I could be wrong, but I thought the moves that were demonstrated were largely defensive - someone comes in close to body and you disable by throwing them, rather than attacking.
 
 
Dead Megatron
23:25 / 19.06.08
yeah, and then you get on his ass on the ground, break a few bones, choke him a bit, slap his ears as hard as you cana, and so on and so forth

you have been watching too much competition jiu-jitsu.


to be more precise, Rickson Gracie is the elder son and heir to Hélio Gracie, who is the guy who invented BJJ. He's a true master.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
00:22 / 20.06.08
jiujitsu isn't really a way to go out and fuck other people up. it's more like a way to fuck people up if they're trying to attack you.

but that doesn't make it a method of meditation.

there was an issue of the Hulk comic several years ago where Banner goes to Doctor Strange to learn how to meditate so that he will never become angry and turn into the Hulk again. and it works. he's cured forever and will never have to be the Hulk. only then the Juggernaut attacks, and Bruce has to become the Hulk to save everyone.

the comic ends with Bruce sadly walking away staring at his shoes, knowing that he will never again remember how to meditate and keep calm now that the Juggernaut has been driven away, because...well, because the comic was written by a moron who was reminded at the last minute that they needed to still have a Hulk comic next month, presumably.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
00:28 / 20.06.08
in ang lee's movie banner saves a lab friend that was standing in the way of the gamma pulse. not rick jones, but somebody in a similar position. this was obviously retconned in the new movie to pay homage to the tv series.

funnily snough, rickson gracie was credited as 'aikido expert' in the new movie.
 
 
Seth
01:30 / 20.06.08
I find myself hoping that the sequel incorporates the Rick Jones character in some substantive way - a supporting character/sidekick for The Hulk would be a good addition to the movie version Hulk...

Yes.

YES!
 
 
osymandus
15:03 / 20.06.08
It actually sort of always annoys me that more superstrong heroes don't actually learn martial arts. Superman, for instance. Everyone on the planet knows that all you need to make Kal-El your Big Blue Bitch is about 5 carat's worth of kryptonite, but does the Last Gimp of Krypton ever think 'Hmm, maybe I should get Batman to teach me some moves so that I no longer have to worry about getting my ass handed to me by a five year old girl wearing kryptonite braces'? No, he never does, because he's superstrong, and it's not like there's fucking shitloads of kryptonite everywhere ohhangonwaitnotherefuckingis.



Slight deviantion , but in the comics Batman did indeed tutor superman in martial arts , hwoever its not often used due to 1) Writers and artists not alwasy bothering to do research it 2) For plot convience , Superman doing precision strikes on Darksied for instance would end teh fight real quick .

Back on to hulk , in th erecent World War hulk series teh Hulk is fully trained in gladitorial forms and trains in contronling himself phsyically and mentally. So basiclly he flattens everyone in the marvel hero pathenon.
 
 
grant
15:31 / 20.06.08
Totally off topic, but I kinda think Superman would be a lousy martial artist. He doesn't have the focus. Lots of speed and strength, but martial arts are really about balance and equilibrium and leverage, which he'd never really have developed, at least not in any human way.

And if kryptonite made him sick, then it'd mess up his focus anyway.

On topic: did this movie have any vague allusions to The Wolfman? I think that's an important parallel text to The Hulk, and one that Ang Lee kind of squeezed in there (fighting monster dogs in the woods by moonlight).
 
 
NotBlue
18:02 / 22.06.08
Generally it's will, with skill a reasonably distant second that gets you through a brawl - also, the best way to learn is by doing - how many rucks has superman or hulk been in, what martial art does thor master? And how much skill do you need to melt people from orbit with heat vision?
 
 
Feverfew
20:01 / 22.06.08
I saw this over the weekend, and while I enjoyed it, I've been getting into Animated Debates with someone I saw it with, who has a deep, abiding dislike of Ang Lee's previous attempt, whereas I really liked it.

I would have left the cinema after The Incredible Hulk more indifferent, were it not for the last five minutes, ("You always wear such nice suits...") not least for General Ross apparently getting sloshed on Galliano, and for the myriad little touches that saved the film from being completely mindless.

Something that intrigues me, though, is the analysis of the ending in the film's wikipedia article;

Leterrier made the film's final shot of Banner ambiguous; if there is a sequel, it would mean Banner finally masters control over his anger; if there is not a sequel, the shot indicates instead that in the scheduled 2011 feature The Avengers, he becomes a menace. Leterrier and Roth are contracted to return, but Norton is not.

It's probably wrong to think of this as Schrodinger's Hulk, but still.
 
 
Eskay Uno
07:06 / 23.06.08
I enjoyed it... but kinda like I enjoy junk food. It had GREAT superhero action sequences, the effects were cool, it was well directed, the performances were very good (given the 1-dimensional characters) and the TONE was perfect for this kind of movie. It's a shame that it wasn't really ABOUT anything. I mean, yes there was a story, but it was as basic as people often percieve comics to be. The plot was skeletal and there only to support the action set-pieces - which WERE fantastic (and more satisfying on that level than Ang Lee's Hulk). But the Ang Lee Hulk worked in all the ways this one didn't, and somewhere between the two is the perfect hULK MOVIE. Still, it was fun, especially all those little touches like that final scene and the nods to the original tv show.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:05 / 25.06.08
I really liked this one and didn't like the Ang Lee, although I saw what they were doing I just didn't care for it (Bana also being a very good actor who was totally miscast, but that's another thread). The first act, with the big pan over the city on the hillside, then later on the big chase was amazing, probably the best visual sequence we've had in any of the Marvel films.

I did wonder if the dark factory and shaky visuals were because the film makers were embarrassed by their CGI Hulk but the next fight, in broad daylight, put those fears to rest. The scene with Hulkie in the mountains, for all it's Frankenstein's Monster-tasticness was beautiful.

I also got a sense that the Hulk was learning as he went along, he didn't start off as a mindless monster because he's a mindless monster, he started that way because he had no life experience to draw from, by the end of the film he's learnt to talk and Banner seems to seeking to control rather than get rid of him, I presume the Avengers movie would come before another Hulk film which is a shame, I'd love to see Ed Norton reprise his role as the Hulk drags himself up from where he started here to some level of discursive intelligence.

Best line of the movie? As Betty is swearing and shouting at the cab driver, a concerned Bruce says "I've learned some really useful calming techniques..."

So Marvel have produced two of the best super-hero movies of many years this summer. Who thought that was likely?
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:55 / 27.06.08
Checking the credits at the end I think Betty's psychologist boyfriend she ditches for Bruce was called Leonard (although no-one calls him by name in the film).

Leonard...Samson?

GreenhairgammapowerX-factorcounselingGO!
 
 
Liger Null
20:32 / 28.06.08
Appears to be so.
 
  
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