Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.

Underground > Policy & Help >

User 1321 - Calvinballronan, Calvin, Grim reader etc

Page: (1)2

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:14 / 24.04.08

User 1321 has apparently sent a number of PMs containing gender-specific abuse to user 754 (Current called "This is *my* hole", more often known as Mordant Carnival). From the quotations received, and the difference between those abusive PMs and PMs sent by the same user at the same time, it seems clear that 754's gender was key in the selection and deployment of said abuse.

In the past, this would probably have resulted in a banning thread, but, honestly, the banning thread idea seems to have been by and large a godawful mistake in the annals of Barbelith and in particular at this point there seems little point in perpetuating it, especially since we are in the exciting position of having no idea whether an actual ban waits at the end of the process.

So. I'd like to verify the content of these PMs. The easiest way for me to do this would be for 754 to PM me her login details (either before or after a password change) so I can check the content of the messages. Assuming that a means for doing this can be established, I will then PM Tom Coates asking him to ban user 1321. Since 1321 has been silent since a flame-out in Temple a fortnight ago, I doubt that this will be an awful privation for him.

This is all a bit undramatic, I know, so here's a thread in which to discuss this modus operandi.

15:32 / 24.04.08

As an MO, this seems fine, I suppose.

Closed for Business Time

15:46 / 24.04.08

You already know my feelings about this, but for the record I state my support. Seems like the only way to go forward at the moment.

15:52 / 24.04.08

Thank you, Haus.

17:02 / 24.04.08

I'm not entirely happy with the idea of asking another poster for their login details in a situation like this, for very hazy, general privacy-related reasons. Could Mordant not just copy and paste the relevant PMs to you, Haus?

ONLY NICE THINGS

18:03 / 24.04.08

Well, theoretically, yes. However, that copying and pasting would allow for content to be added and amended, no? The only way to be absolutely sure of what has been sent is to check the inbox. Personally, I trust Mordant entirely, but, you know, if I were on the outside looking at this system, I'd see that as a point where it's open to abuse.

Of course, this bit is open to abuse by _me_, so to a degree it becomes a question of who you trust. It's a problem. The only other way around it would probably be either (a) to get the person who sent the PMs to "sign off" on the accuracy of the copy-and-pastes or (b) to ask Tom to delve into the log of PMs sent, which would require more of his involvement...

ONLY NICE THINGS

18:20 / 24.04.08

OK - have read the PMs in context. It appears that Calvin has threatened to leave the board if he does not receive certain concessions, which I think it would not be possible to offer, and felt justified in using hatespeech as a rhetorical technique. I don't have a huge problem with asking Tom for a ban on that evidence - it will only be helping him to stay away from an environment where he cannot be protected.

21:02 / 24.04.08

Heave-ho'd?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

21:20 / 24.04.08

Even if the PMs were ruled inadmissable, there's still the whole "Roman Catholicsm is the only logical spiritual path" and using ethnic slurs for effect stuff. Which is hella more disruptive.

Glenn Close But No Cigar

21:45 / 24.04.08

So, has user THX1138 (or whatever hir number was) been banned yet?

22:45 / 24.04.08

Yeah, it's been at least seven hours, how long do we have to wait around for a report? I'm sure you and Tom have been exchanging a flurry of emails hashing this out. Keep us updated!

ONLY NICE THINGS

22:46 / 24.04.08

Not yet, no. Since he is not currently posting to the board, and since this is the first time we've done this, I'm going slowly to try to avoid upset. Although at this point there doesn't seem a huge amount of push against.

ONLY NICE THINGS

22:47 / 24.04.08

Also, Randy, could you PM me a current email address for yourself?

06:03 / 25.04.08

He should be allowed his day in court though, shouldn't he?

ONLY NICE THINGS

08:04 / 25.04.08

It's right here. He is free to speak if he wishes. If one of you career contrarians wants to try to get him to dance for your amusement, please do go ahead.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

09:41 / 25.04.08

He should dramafap be allowed fapfapfap his day fapfap in court fap though, shouldn't he fapfapfapfapfap?

Fixed.

Unless the evil feminazis are disabling his post function with their mind-rays, no-one's stopping him, are they? He's still got his log-in. He's had it all along. From what he wrote to me, Calvin seemed to be labouring under the delusion that his leaving the board was some kind of ultimate blackmail chip, having mistaken attempts to get him to stop screaming slurs and engage like a rational human being for pleas to stick around.

But you know all this, don't you. This is just another opportunity for you to engage in the harrassment-by-proxy you seem to find so entertaining. You don't actually have the guts to come right out and put your misogynistic cards on the Barbetable--might make things a touch frosty down the Jorene Celeste, eh? Instead, you wait around for individuals like Calvin here to express those sentiments for you. Then you pat them on the back, you minimise the damage they do, you frame attempts to register the harrassment as "fights," and then when a ban comes up you take out your onion and weep for the poor, poor dear. And you do it over and over again, safe in the knowledge that you're helping to create an increasingly hostile environment for those nasty uppity women without ever risking a ban yourself. In fact, you get to frame yourself as Mr Nice, lauded for your wacky sense of humour and wonderfully "human" compassion for the little guy. Clever!

So I'd just like to register, for the benefit of your fan club, that I feel actively harrassed by you and I'm sick of it. I'm sick of your chicken-flavoured just-under-the-radar trolling, I'm sick of you turning up and whining like a spoilt kid in Toys R Us every time there's a thread touching on feminism and misogyny, I'm sick of you deliberately enabling and supporting people who harrass and abuse me and others.

In conclusion I am heartily sick of your attention-seeking, drama-fomenting, strange-problem-with-women-having, feminist-hating self. Stop kicking the back of my chair and get a life.

10:18 / 25.04.08

Well said.

12:16 / 25.04.08

That's not how I see things, really.

What 'fan club' have I got, after all? They didn't step up to the plate, exactly, during my banning thread.

Mordant Carnival, you often remind me of the Wicked Witch of the West, forcing hir trained, flying monkeys out of the window.

I feel like Dorothy.

You are interfering with my enjoyment of the board, and, accordingly, you are a buster. A total buster.

12:23 / 25.04.08

lauded for your wacky sense of humour

I honestly don't think AG is lauded for his sense of humour on here and probably hasn't been for some time. In fact most people have expressed exasperation with his antics in the recent past, so if that's the way he's trying to frame himself (along with being Mr Nice Guy) then he isn't doing a very good job.

Anna de Logardiere

13:02 / 25.04.08

I've had enough of this utter and complete bullshit surrounding Alex's Grandma. He does not harrass anyone, he doesn't dedicate enough time to following up his arguments to qualify as a person harrassing another. He is not a misogynist, never has been and never will be but neither does he give a flying fuck about rights movements, any rights movements and that's his game and if he wants to position his life in that way it's bloody up to him. Likewise it's his perogative, as it is with any member of any community, to express his discomfort with the atmosphere emanating from the Temple, which is at times utterly vile in its levels of aggression. As someone who dislikes aggression, as is obvious from the way he tackles his own discomfort it is not surprising that the Temple is a disturbing place to him.

I am not in his 'fan club'. I like Alex's Grandma as a person who is silly and funny and not overwhelmed by seriousness. When everyone is looking at themselves and their emotional responses he points out the absurdity of that response and none of you are bloody capable of that. Have you read your own posts recently? Who would want to go to the pub with any of you- what fun would we bloody have?

13:09 / 25.04.08

Oh well ...

13:29 / 25.04.08

He does not harrass anyone, he doesn't dedicate enough time to following up his arguments to qualify as a person harrassing another.

It sounds like Mordant is at least feeling harassed on some level though, by the tone of her post above. Is that not relevant?

Likewise it's his perogative, as it is with any member of any community, to express his discomfort with the atmosphere emanating from the Temple, which is at times utterly vile in its levels of aggression.

If you or AG feel that way, the place to talk about it would be the "Moderating the temple" thread. Upfront and with examples of "utterly vile aggression", not in a continuing series of vague, slightly trollish, and offhandedly belittling comments in inappropriate threads. Don't be a buster. Just say what you mean.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

13:32 / 25.04.08

I apologise for the "fan club" comment. It was unnecessary, unhelpful, and I withdraw it unreservedly.

What I do notice with AG is a reccurent pattern of behaviour where the topic of feminism comes up, instances of misogyny are flagged, and he consistently questions or minimises these. I first noticed it in the Feminism 101 thread, when I linked to an Amnesty International report on male attitudes to violence which AG chose to lambast. He withdrew that comment, but since then there have been enough similar instances that over time it's become a source of discomfort and tension for me. I experience this as anti-feminist conduct.

He also seems to me to have a tendency to pop up in threads like this, defending people who have harrassed me personally. This also appears to me to be a consistent pattern of behaviour which, over time, I have come to experience as harrassing. Since some of the harrassment I experience here includes an element of misogyny--even if the initial attack isn't motivated thereby--defending the harrassing individuals or minimising the impact of their conduct incidentally involves collusion with misogyny and anti-feminism. Even if this is incidental, I still experience it as anti-feminist and I experience extra tension when it happens.

I don't actually object to absurdist one-liners or a little off-topic fun. I object to being poked and having my experiences minimised for someone else's amusement.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

13:42 / 25.04.08

Additionally: I suffer from mild but clinical paranoia and I am aware that sometimes what I percive to be patterns of conduct are in fact not patterns at all. I strive therefore to be very careful about acting on these perceptions, to the point, sometimes, of overcompensating. I'm aware that it's possible that I'm mistaken here, but I'm as sure as I can be that I'm not. Can you, DR, please accept that I'm genuinely distressed and not just being aggressive?

Glenn Close But No Cigar

13:43 / 25.04.08

I'm a fan of Alex's Grandma, and of Mordant. In fact, I might be a AG/Mordant 'shipper'.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

13:46 / 25.04.08

Glenn, mate, this is really not the time.

13:48 / 25.04.08

X-post, I should say.

I owe you a pint, Rivers. A pint of ... blood?

18:00 / 25.04.08

Mordant, I'm sure you know that I don't think you're mistaken.

What I do notice with AG is a reccurent pattern of behaviour where the topic of feminism comes up, instances of misogyny are flagged, and he consistently questions or minimises these. I first noticed it in the Feminism 101 thread, when I linked to an Amnesty International report on male attitudes to violence which AG chose to lambast. He withdrew that comment, but since then there have been enough similar instances that over time it's become a source of discomfort and tension for me. I experience this as anti-feminist conduct.

Alex's Grandma and his behaviour as defined above as well as directly to me is one of the main reasons I very rarely post to the board anymore.

18:09 / 25.04.08

Of course it is.

Welcome back, my old enemy.

21:43 / 25.04.08

Christ, you really can't help yourself, can you AG? It's a compulsion. I think in your own way, you're like Glenn in your desire to poke (though I acknowledge that you feel it to be more than mere poking, Mordant). Like, personally- I am not much more than annoyed usually, and you can be haha funny enough, but I can't remember the last post I saw of yours outside of comics where you weren't making a backhanded or obliquely cutting comment, or just something that is a joke endemic to you (then again, I'm just not going to get all of your or others' references anyway). You are terminally indirect. Darrell says you don't harass anyone, but while you're certainly not like the person this thread is nominally about, the thing is— when you know that you are bothering someone, or you know that what you say will bother someone— you most often choose to be an asshole in those situation, really. I don't know why you would choose that path. What do you get out of goading people? I think it's one thing if someone is being a raging asshole, that's when there is a guilty pleasure in making them pay for what you feel are their transgressions. But people who are most often decent people, maybe having a shit day, or just saying something that you can find an opportunity to poke into... why?
I'd like an honest response from you, please— though I suppose I don't expect one. Do you disagree that you frequently, purposefully, fuck with people when you post, for no reason other than rattling their cage? Maybe you feel the need to be the one who puts things in their perspective, because, really, isn't it all a bit much to go to all this trouble over an internet message board? But you should give some credence to others' perspectives, or at least some respect, even if you think that they may be reacting too strongly to something. I think that's my biggest beef with you, you act polite enough, and oh, well, yes, my, and all that; but you the things you say you say with a lack of true respect or good intent, at least from what I can tell.
I don't know. I don't want to perpetuate conflict, I don't dislike you or anything, and I'm not involved in this for the most part other than as an observer (and now an opinion-stater), but I think you could be a more valuable presence here.

22:02 / 25.04.08

For what it's worth, I've just vetoed an edit request from AG that was intended to make his last post more aggravating.

If you want to be a shit-stirrer, do it in an area that I don't moderate.

Glenn Close But No Cigar

22:03 / 25.04.08

On reflection, a three-way 'ship' between AG, Mordant and Olulabelle would surely be a fan favourite. It sort of reminds me of a sexy version of Terry Prachett's splendid 'Wyrd Sisters', with Olulabelle as Magrat Garlick, Mordant as Granny Weatherwax, and AG as Nanny Ogg!

22:06 / 25.04.08

Right. This bullshit stops now. Any further off-topic gets put up for deletion.

The topic, for those who are incapable of reading the fucking title, is the banning of grim reader. Anything not relating to that? Elsewhere.

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:27 / 26.04.08

Oh, I don't know. Some of this discussion has been quite useful.

On harassment - we can probably follow best practice on this one. Harassment can be said to occur if a person behaves in a manner that makes another person feel harassed. However, to avoid unreasonable or trivial accusations, a further proviso is introduced, which is whether in the judgement of a reasonable person this feeling of harassment is justifiable. It is with tremendous shock and sorrow that I have to say that that reasonable person is probably me.

First line response in harassment situations is for the harassee to attempt to speak privately to the perceived author of the harassing behaviour, or if they do not feel able to do that then to a line manager (there's a problem here, of course, in defining what constitutes a line manager in this context). If that does not lead to a cessation in the behaviour, it has to be dealt with by a procedure of inquiry, which determines whether the feelings of being harassed are reasonable and what can be done to stop them.

In the case of Calvinballronan, this is pretty simple, and the behaviour is, it seems, going to get at least the request for a response. In the case of Alex's Grandma's behaviour, there are a series of open questions which it seems increasingly inevitable that we are going to have to address formally. This thread has also raised the question of whether, knowing that two female members of Barbelith have read and contributed to a thread, and might be assumed still to be reading it, it is harassing behaviour to describe how one imagines them in sexual situations with a male member of Barbelith to whom they do not appear to wish to be linked sexually and indeed by whom they have already stated that they feel victimised due to their gender.

If it seems that these questions are sufficiently important that they need to be discussed, however, it might be best to do so in other threads.

13:00 / 26.04.08

Tsuga,

What I don't much care for is what looks like on-line bullying. Regardless of how dreadful poster X's opinions are, it seems, to me anyway, always worth remembering that poster X is perhaps a lonely guy stuck in a bedroom, possibly his mother's, whose opinions are unlikely to be changed courtesy of a pasting on Barbelith. That if anything, they'll be hardened.

I don't know who'd benefit from this.

Page: (1)2