BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


The Call to Shamanism

 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
00:01 / 23.04.08

I've been wrestling with some questions recently regarding what for lack of a better term would be "the Call" to serving the spirits and my community (whatever that means, these days). I've been reluctant to discuss this publicly, but there comes a time when you have to seek outside advice.

So without going into too much detail, I've been a practicing magician since 94' or so, mostly Thelema flavored Chaos Magick... of late Feri flavored CM.

Over the past couple of years, I've... well, I been presented with the idea of "embracing Shamanisim" in more and more forceful ways. At first it was something I gave little time to simply because 99% of everyone I've ever met who made any claim to Shamanisim has been... seemingly in it for the "wrong reasons", let's say.

But as I've continued to try and hone my spiritual practice (and yes, this is germane so I'll include it, engage in psychedelic use) I've been confronted with what I can only interpret as "the call". And when I ignore it and try to put it aside? My life turns to crap. Serious crap.

Even spelling it out like this in plain English sounds a bit awkward, mainly because.. well, it's something I'm extremely self-conscious about it. More awkward than mentioning that it also seems to be intertwined with my issues with my possible status as Transgendered.

Anyway, there are some people on here I really respect, so I thought I'd toss this out and see if anyone who has felt the call to serve in some way or another has any advice on way or the other.
 
 
Laughing
00:44 / 23.04.08
Thank you for sharing this, IMS. I know it's tough to throw this kind of stuff out there, even in a "this kind of stuff"-friendly place like the Temple.

Can you describe the call in more detail? How did it manifest to you? Have you had any practical experience with spirits before now?
 
 
darth daddy
00:54 / 23.04.08
Personally, I have never had a "call to serve". Very guilty of spiritual materialism, or spiritual republicanism. (Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps!) However, it is interesting to me how certain traditions do call to me and others have no attraction. What do you mean by shamanism? How does it differ from chaos magick or feri? As I go along, these differences seem to mean less and less to me, as I pick ala carte among many choices.

Not to beat a dead horse, but what do you mean by call to serve? I associate this with a desire for leadership, which leads to needing followers, which leads to organized religion, which leads to killing yourself and your friends so you can ride the spaceship behind the hale-bot comet.
 
 
EmberLeo
01:50 / 23.04.08
Watch that last step, Darth Daddy - it's a doozy.

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
03:16 / 23.04.08
The answer to the basic question as expressed in your abstract is a qualified "yes."

I think the first step might be to outline for us what you mean when you say "shamanism." It's a very, very broad term and different people use it to mean different things. What techniques and practices are you thinking of in particular? Which spirits are talking to you? About what?

Then maybe taking a look at what constitutes your community--what groups does your life intersect with? In what ways--besided shamanic techniques--can you help them?

More awkward than mentioning that it also seems to be intertwined with my issues with my possible status as Transgendered.

Would come as no surprise to me. Shamanism and various forms of transgenderedness are connected in a lot of cultures.

I'd like ot echo the "thanks for sharing" comments. This cannot be easy for you to talk about.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
03:36 / 23.04.08
Laughing - It's come to me over the years of practice, the idea of dedicating myself to my spirituality in a more meaningful way. In recent years, that gut feeling telling me that "something is talking to me, but I'm not listening" has increased and increased.

(Coincidentally or perhaps not, my struggle with Gender Identity has grown more and more profound and life-damaging as time has gone on... seemingly the only part of my life that magical practice hasn't helped me evaluate in a constructive fashion.)

In recent years, this has been harder to ignore, and the harder I've tried to ignore it...

(I have very hard time with people who take an "OMG I'm special and chosen and uber" approach to magick, also I'm continualy self-examining to ensure that I'm not using magickal practice as a coping technique. I've met too many ascended masters in their mothers' basement.)

...it's been harder to ignore. I've had very powerful encounters with assorted entities both in "the waking world" and in chemically altered states. I'm torn between adding detail and not wanting to de-mystify these profound experiences by writing them down.

I have, over the years come to see various sources of chemgnosis not as drugs or plants but as powerful allies. Certainly when I write about them in a different context, I'm approaching the neuropsychological angle but in my personal practice, I have no doubt at all that I've touched the face of the intelligence "behind" a psilopsybin mushroom experience. I'd be disingenuous if I claimed that part of the experiences that have led me to this crux were not had while in a chemically altered state.

Darth - I've been an al la carte guy myself for some time. Hell, much of my work with entities over the years has been in the form of pop culture entities. Xorn, Kirby Gods, John Constantine, The Invisibles, Promethea, ect. There have been some exceptions but I've usually existed magickaly in that slight air of detatchment that can come of working with a pop culture pantheon, that little bit of self knowledge that can prevent you from being subsumed into the mystery.

Shamanism comes with tools... ecstatic states, enthogens, ect. And these are tools and technologies that of course we can dip into as chaos magicians. But there's a different feel when coming to them from a non-CM perspective. There's (and I'm not judging ANYONE's work or choice of equipment) a strange feeling when I can feel that I've earned those tools or methodologies.

Feri was introduced to my life from a few different sources after my last major experience with the spirits and it's teachings have helped me do some very needed self work. That's the most amazing thing about Feri is the methods for self work, and the way it can help someone like me who is thinking through everything to be a bit more human.

But it runs afoul of my gender issues and to a lesser extent my issues with "the call" or whatever it may be.

And to concentrate on the tools, I feel is not seeing the forest for the trees. It's not so much about the tools as much as from what inner perspective you are using those tools. Which is something that I simultaneously find problematic in many levels. There's a lot of cultural baggage involved in Shamansim, after all... baggage that I as a poor white country boy, don't necessarily have a right to claim.

On the other hand, Terrence McKenna and others make a very persuasive argument for the role of a Shaman as something that can exist outside of a specific cultural context. And this makes a lot of sense to me.

As for leadership? Oh hell no. If I had any interest in leadership, I'd have stayed as a Financial Consultant and would not be making half what I used to make as a toymaker. I'm as interested in becoming some sort of guru as I am in following a guru. Which is to say: Not at all.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
05:50 / 23.04.08
to concentrate on the tools, I feel is not seeing the forest for the trees. It's not so much about the tools as much as from what inner perspective you are using those tools.

Okay, so why don't we go from there? Outline what you would characterise as a Shamanic perspective. Right now, it's a bit hard to offer any input because I'm not really sure where you're coming from.

There's a lot of cultural baggage involved in Shamansim, after all... baggage that I as a poor white country boy, don't necessarily have a right to claim.

If it's any consolation to you, the word "Shaman" originates with the Tungus tribe of Siberia, who were also "white country boys" if you like. It's become attached to cultures outside of Europe through the work of European scholars.
 
 
This Sunday
07:34 / 23.04.08
It's become attached to cultures outside of Europe through the work of European scholars.

And probably shouldn't be. But we haven't got a really good english term for the more general job description, do we?

IMS, how do you intend to go about the shaman gig, then? How do you intend to operate? I'm asking genuinely, as I realize I'm just tossing up my own baggage and hanging it on the hook of shaman when the actual thing probably isn't anything like doctors, speakers, or other forms of medicine workers as I am familiar with them, anymore than it's like the local priest in his whites and blacks. I'm very interested to know if you mean shaman within a particularly tight framework or if you mean something broader and perhaps not specifically shaman. (There's no decent way to phrase a lot of this, is there?)

I don't know that I quite agree with Terrence McKenna's assertion that the shaman can operate outside cultural context... at least, not in all the ways that phrasing can take us. That sort of distancing/separation, probably connected to the shaman as typically living removed from, yet walking through, his culture, is nice in theory, but it's best as a physical consideration, I think, and not indicative that the shaman operates or thinks on a plane totally removed from cultural or social context.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:30 / 23.04.08
I think ultimately, whether you adopt the label of Shaman or not, you're going to need to buckle down and engage with the process. Firstly, accepting a calling to serve the spirits and the community doesn't mean thinking you're special. It means knowing you're useful. (Think of it like being a photocopier in a busy office somewhere--people don't gather round it going Oh Great Xerox Without Whom We Are As Naught or talk in hushed voices about the awesome majesty of its capacity to print on A3, but there's often a queue to use the thing.) You can do this without becoming one of those basement-dwelling gitwizards. If anything, the process of interacting with Stuff Out There is humbling rather than elevating--there's so much Stuff, and it's so BIG.

If you feel a call, then that call must come from somewhere. You need to find out Who's on the other end of the line. I'd say the first thing to do would be to seek guidance from one of the intelligences you have an existing relationship with--one of your plant allies or the Feri spirits, I should say, rather than John Constantine et al. I've found pop-culture peeps to be... inappropriate... for the kind of direction you'll need. Go to your allies, and with an open mind and an honest heart ask Them what's up and what you need to do next.

You may have to give up that bit of distance you've been maintaining between yourself and your practice. This can be a humbling thing to do, even frightening, but in the long run it's for the best.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:51 / 23.04.08
I think it's quite difficult to have this conversation at the moment, as you seem to be working off the principle that we all share an understanding of what the term "shaman" means. What do you mean when you say shaman? Already we have entheogen use and transgender thrown into the "shaman" complex, so I'd say it's worth exploring to what extent your notions of the shaman actually have any basis in the magico-religious practices of a specific culture or cultures - and to what extent they are an unexamined westernised construction comprised of various ideas that have somehow coalesced into the western pop culture image of the shaman, and which you may be taking on board uncritically to some degree.

I would argue that if you accept magic works, the obvious thing to do with it is to use it to help people to whatever extent you can. It really confuses me how so many people can take on board the idea that magic works and then think that doesn't come with the responsibility to actually use it constructively in the world. I actually loathe the western idea of the "shaman", because I think the idea that this is a specific role and calling for certain special magicians - rather than the basic responsibility of anyone who practices magic - is quite problematic.

It doesn't need to be a big deal. You don't really need to wake up one morning and decide "I'm a shaman now". It's just the obvious thing to do with magic, and to do otherwise is a bit like studying for years to become a doctor but never seeing anyone who needs help and only using it for your own well being. Or studying for years to practice law, but only ever representing yourself in court. I find it really bizarre how it just never seems to occur to people that magic might perhaps actually have a purpose beyond one's own recreational entertainment and self-gratification. I think the idea of the "shaman" - and the slightly precious way its being discussed in this thread - is actually a part of the problem.

"the Call" to serving the spirits and my community (whatever that means, these days).

I really don't like the popular idea that "serving your community" is something that is no longer easily relevant to today's society. It smacks of an insidious Thatcherite "there is no society" mentality that divides and alienates. People seem to imagine "the shaman's community" as this bygone thing that existed in the past, where the witchdoctor had a clear cut role in the village and his/her community lived in straw huts nearby and the whole setup worked perfectly and seamlessly. I'm not sure to what extent this may just be a romanticised and idealised view of something that was probably as complex in practice as it is today.

I work as a professional witchdoctor in London. I've advertised in the past, but I've found that route tends to bring you certain types of client who don't actually need magical services so much as they need a dose of reality and a bit of a wake-up call. You get a lot of people who want you to wave a magic wand and make them a millionaire, or a famous movie actress, or a variety of other unrealistic goals that they aren't really doing anything else in their life to try and bring about. They just want you to magic it for them without any effort on their part. You get a lot of people who want you to make some specific person fall in love with them, when said specific person has dumped them, moved to another country, married someone else, and actively hates them. You get this sort of stuff a LOT. Worse, there is a whole cottage industry of "dodgy docs" who exist specifically to fleece this sort of client for as much money as they can be taken for. I've seen clients who have literally given away thousands of pounds to disreputable practitioners who have promised to make their dreams come true, and that having failed, have immediately hunted out another practitioner cos maybe this next one will be able to deliver what they say they can.

I'm a bit of a Thelemite witchdoctor in my approach to client work, and my practice is about enabling people to understand and accomplish their Will, not to enable their fantasies or be complicit in their unrealistic obsessions. It can be a little disheartening to discover that, by and large, a lot of the clients you will encounter really do not want that. They just want you to tell them what they would like to hear, they want you to say you can make X implausible wish come true, and they want to pay you cash in return for supporting and prolonging the often quite problematic and self-destructive delusions they are invested in. Needless to say, that's not what they get when they call on me. However, this type of client will generally not be happy with doctoring that attempts to get to the root of their problem, wean them away from their obsession, and set them on a healthier track. They will tend to run for the hills as soon as you start engaging with them like that, and into the clutches of yet more dodgy docs who will be more than happy to take their cash and spin them another unlikely yarn. It can be a bit exhausting to deal with.

I ended up coming to the realisation that this is actually not the sort of doctoring that I should really be doing. Nowadays my practice is about serving my actual community - the people within my social orbit who I already have a relationship with, and who have real problems that magical intervention could assist with. As opposed to having my time taken up by a procession of random nutters who don't actually need help and just want to pay me to be complicit in their fantasy world. I always have clients. There's always people in my life who are facing challenging life situations or have someone close to them who is. Sometimes they come to me, sometimes I offer to do work for them without them asking. I see it as my responsibility to the Spirits I work with to do this sort of work. A spirit doctor is like an axis through which the spirits can reach out into the world and bring help where it is needed to the whole community, not just a community of one. You don't have to "fake" community or construct it along artificial lines - your community is simply the people around you in your life, family, friends, acquaintances, friends-of-friends, the occasional random person who washes up on my doorstep sent by the spirits. I find that I don't actually have to go looking for community or worry about it too much. That side of things will take care of itself. The spirits will bring me the clients I should be working with, and my job is to be a kind of middleman that enables them to bring healing where it is required. You become a localised point where spirit may interact with matter.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
11:36 / 23.04.08
Ooh, good post Gypsy. Not much I can add to that, really. I went through a "shamanic" phase myself in the late 1980s - not out of any sense of crisis or "call", but more that I found myself doing magical stuff for other people within my local community - mostly young, unemployed "alternative" types who lived in the same area, and rarely for money - more often than not I did divinations, spells & other stuff in exchange for a cooked meal, a couple of pints in the pub or the odd blim of sticky black. I don't really think it matters much what label you attach to yourself - what matters in this context is how other people regard you. How you conduct your relationships with other people is as important as how you relate to allies & other non-embodied people.

If you want to take a look at a book that deals both sensitively and comprehensively with the complexities of taking on the mantle of "shaman" in contemporary western culture, I'd highly reccomend Dr. Rob Wallis' Shamans/Neo-Shamans: Ecstasies, Alternative Archaeologies and Contemporary Pagans - you can read bits of it online via Google Books. Wallis (who's both an academic and a practitioner himself) draws on some of the newer theories emerging from archeology, anthropology and Queer Theory plus his own fieldwork in North America and the UK in a wide-ranging examination of the numerous and often thorny issues that have emerged out of western fascination with the figure of the shaman. One reason I like Wallis' approach is that he refuses to adopt a simplistic "one-boot-fits-all-sizes" account of contemporary shamanisms nor is he concerned with perpetuating the indigenous practitioners = "authentic" v western practitioners = "made up" dichotomy which often gets in the way of getting a comprehensive overview.
 
 
This Sunday
12:11 / 23.04.08
[N]or is he concerned with perpetuating the indigenous practitioners = "authentic" v western practitioners = "made up" dichotomy which often gets in the way of getting a comprehensive overview.

Not to be a horrible ass, but can you imagine that sentence working with too many other terms/titles? Again, to put it firmly on a Christian basis because that seems the bulk of Euro-background, I'd like to maybe be the Pope of the Eastern Hemisphere, so long as - as a very contemporary modern sort of fellow - I get to still have sex, and not sell myself into contract with Jesus, and I don't much care for the hat or those red boots the Western Hemisphere Pope's been sporting. Transubstantiation's good. Oh, and I haven't a Vatican. But I'm a modern sort of Pope, you understand. Of today. It's true. I take drugs and won't back any major crusades.

I think I'll be a Jesuit priest. But without the restrictions or approval or structure. I just think I'll take a bit of fun stuff from it and...

I'll be a surgeon, but I can't be bothered with years of school, and I just want to cut people up and take massive doses of tranqs; maybe I'll fix someone or be of use to my community in there somewhere, too.

I don't think IMS is going down this route - or has to, by any means - and trouser's suggestions are good ground to explore. But the ground seems to be veering dangerously near, in phrasing and vagueness, if nothing else; maybe I'm getting paranoid.

Aside from that, indigenous practitioners = "authentic" is pretty much inarguable if by "indigenous" you actually mean "original", isn't it? Inauthentic doesn't have to mean ineffective or wrong, but it may be better served by being labelled and treated as a separate/different thing. That's why words have meanings and meanings have words, yes?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:28 / 23.04.08
I think your argument there would hold better if IMS was feeling the call to become something like a Haitian Vodou Houngan - a definite role from a definite culture that means something pretty specific. But s/he's not. S/he is instead feeling a call to become a "shaman", which - unless we are talking specifically about Siberian shamanism which I'm fairly sure we're not – is so vague a term as to be virtually meaningless. I guess it's being used here as a shorthand for "feeling the call to apply one's magical practice in service of others", and if this is the case, I can't see any inauthenticity in someone taking their practice in that direction. No one culture has ownership of using magic to help others. You can't do it "inauthentically" if you are simply applying what you know to help people and get results. There is nothing to differentiate the indigenous practitioner occupying this role from the contemporary urban practitioner doing the same, and to think otherwise is simply exoticising the indigenous practitioner. If the contemporary practitioner was claiming to actually be, say, a healer within a specific indigenous tradition from another culture - but was largely making it up and discarding the bits that they didn't like - then your pope analogy would stand up. But I don't think that's really what's happening here.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
12:35 / 23.04.08
Daytripper

indigenous practitioners = "authentic" is pretty much inarguable if by "indigenous" you actually mean "original", isn't it?

Actually I agree with you - I think it is inarguable - but it is however a stance taken up by many critics of what Wallis terms Neo-Shamanisms and is, a methodological trap in that it "arguably reifies a primitivist or noble savage stereotype of indigenous cultures". (Wallis, p31).

Here's an article by Wallis: Journeying the Politics of Ecstasy: Anthropological Perspectives on Neoshamanism
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
12:44 / 23.04.08
I'm off to work in a few, so I'm only going to have a chance to reply to the first few statements right now, but I wanted to tank all of you for your input, first off.

Hole - What I mean by Shamanism is.. hmmm...it's difficult to approach because like I said, the concept has lots of cultural and historical baggage. I've studded many forms of the practice from an Anthropological standpoint for several years. Knee deep in ethnogrophies of Siberian and Peruvian, American Southwest and Amazon Basin Shamans. I think I'm making the mistake of being too vague, rather than commit one of the sins of cultural appropriation that I've become rather paranoid about.

The bottom line regarding what I'm using the term to mean is in fact what Gypsy pegs it as is "someone who takes their magic out into the world to help others". Because, as much as I'd like to think I've come a long way as a magician, on many levels that sounds like common sense and on a certain level, it doesn't.

Would come as no surprise to me. Shamanism and various forms of transgenderedness are connected in a lot of cultures.

And I can't help but feel they're connected here as well, for whatever reason. It's funny, I was more angsty about sharing this theory about "the call" to a friend than coming out as Trans.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
12:55 / 23.04.08
I guess it's being used here as a shorthand for "feeling the call to apply one's magical practice in service of others"

I think its worth bearing in mind that this notion of the "shamanic call" is a fairly central theme in popular accounts of shamanism and you can find a fair number of people on the web and in print talking about it - and indeed, offering workshops. Historically, this notion of shamanic initiatory sickness has been linked to the notion of the shaman as being mentally unstable or epileptic. A viewpoint which Soviet-era scholars used to justify and back state persecution of Siberian Shamans. This idea of "shamanic illness" - whilst popular, is not actually borne out by the fieldwork which has been done over the last thirty years or so.
 
 
darth daddy
13:28 / 23.04.08
The main thread I see in my readings of shamanism is "otherness", caused by near death illness, which places the practitioner in contact with a spirit world. The shaman then uses this contact to assist with the spiritual and material problems of the shaman's society. The transgender historicity I believe also assists with the "otherness" aspect, separating the shaman from responsibilities of raising a family.

In popular culture shamanism is synonymous for dionysian ectasy, which I interpret as getting ripped to the gills. A figure like Jim Morrison is described as being "shamanic". I love the term "entheogen". "No Mom, I'm not getting high, I'm doing entheogens!"

There are things to be learned from getting high. However, there is a fine line between having drug adventures and becoming a drug addict or simply a burnout. In the words of Sgt. Phil Esterhaus from Hill Street Blues....Lets be careful out there!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:36 / 23.04.08
Personally, I have never had a "call to serve". Very guilty of spiritual materialism, or spiritual republicanism. (Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps!)

This is daft though. That's like saying everyone should do their own plumbing or doctoring or whatever. "Appendicitis? Sort out yourself with a kitchen knife and a torch held between your teeth!"

I come across this veiwpoint a lot and it seems to tie into this idea that you wake up and decide to be a magician, learn a few basic techniques, and that's it. For the rest of your life.

Why, alone of every other skill-set in human experience, are people not supposed to grow and develop this one? What is wrong with saying "Okay, I'm really good on ABC over here but I don't really know much about XYZ aspects. Maybe I should give So-and-So a call, she's really good on X. Ooh, and drop Somebodyelse an email, he knows all about Y. And maybe they can put me in touch with someone Zeddy."
 
 
darth daddy
13:56 / 23.04.08
I'm not proud of my spiritual materialism and consider it a defect. In honesty, I have attempted to cultivate a bodhisattva attitude, but in my case it is not yet a reality. I was merely cautioning about the dangers of setting oneself up as a christ sent to save the world. I disagree that spiritual practice is in any way similar to medicine and plumbing. In those rational practices there are generally accepted standards of care based on objective criteria. With Mysticism these "objective" criteria do not exist.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:57 / 23.04.08
I think I'm making the mistake of being too vague, rather than commit one of the sins of cultural appropriation that I've become rather paranoid about.

I think it's possible to let concerns about cultural appropriation - however valid they may be in an abstract sense - prevent you from following through on something that is entirely natural and not the property of any one specific culture. I also think its a bad habit to think of oneself and one's practice as "inauthentic" or second best compared to the "real" practitioners far away or long ago.

Anyone who actually steps up to the role of community magician and does the job effectively is as "authentic" as anyone else fulfilling that same role regardless of culture, and to argue otherwise is like saying a plumber in Basingstoke is somehow less authentic and somehow less of a plumber than a plumber in New York because they operate in a different cultural settings. They both fix drains for people who need their drains fixed, and that's all that matters. A good doctor always has plenty of clients, and your legitimacy will ultimately be tested by market forces and your ability to respond effectively to the needs of that market. Not by anything else. If you are doing the job and getting results, literally nothing else matters. If you manage to turn around a life-threatening situation for your neighbour, do you think they would really give a toss either way about your claims to authenticity or lack thereof?

I think the only "sin" you are in danger of committing here is the worst one: that of stifling your emerging sense of your own magic due to insecurity and self-doubt. From what you've said here, I think you instinctively know the rough outline of where your magic is leading you. It seems to involve entheogens, spirit contact, transgender, and community-based magic. You seem to have an emerging sense of where your power is, what you are drawing on, what you need to explore further, and ultimately of what sort of magician you want to end up as further down the line. This is great, and a sure sign that your magical practice is deepening and really starting to take you somewhere. I'd say the way forward is to explore each of these threads and see where they lead you, rather than getting too hung up on labels like "shaman" or trying to find an indigenous shamanic culture that involves all of these elements and trying to appropriate from it. No culture has ownership of entheogen use, transgender, speaking with spirits, or community-based magic, and there is absolutely no reason to feel paranoid or insecure about experimenting in these areas and seeing where that leads you.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:59 / 23.04.08
In those rational practices there are generally accepted standards of care based on objective criteria. With Mysticism these "objective" criteria do not exist.

In "mysticism" they might not exist - but in community-based magic, they very definitely do. The accepted standard for a working magician is being able to deliver the results that your clients are looking for. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:23 / 23.04.08
This idea of "shamanic illness" - whilst popular, is not actually borne out by the fieldwork which has been done over the last thirty years or so.

I think this is an important point to bear in mind. Whilst I can see certain forms of neurodiversity as being useful to a community-based magician or spirit-worker, just as certain forms of neurodiversity might be useful to engineers or computer programmers, blanket "magician = kerayyzee" or "epileptic = shaman" kinds of statements set my teeth on edge.

I personally find my mental health issues and epilepsy rather get in the way of my magical practice at times, esp. as regards integrating into a community. The point about "shaman sickness" is that you're supposed to come out of it at some point and get on with your job.

(Similarly, wrt the transgender issue: whilst a lot of cultures appear to hook non-normative gender to shamanic, divinatory, or magical ability, and whilst for a lot of trans folk this is an important aspect of their spirituality, I am wary of blanket trans = shaman type statements or narratives. Some transfolk just want to be Mr Joe Average or Mrs Doris Mundanity of 53 the Laurels, and lots of people going "ooh you're a natural shaman!" would get rather on one's nerves.)
 
 
trouser the trouserian
14:56 / 23.04.08
Two things.

Firstly, this notion of "transgender historicity" is tricky, as the very term transgender only gained popular usage from the 1980's onwards. It originally was used to denote individuals who lived full-time in a social role not typically associated with their natal sex, but did not seek surgery. It's meaning shifted in the early 1990s largely thanks to Leslie Feinberg's work (such as Transgender Warriors) towards an umbrella term used to forge political alliance between gender-variant people who suffer oppression. Yet it remains a highly contested term and is sometimes perceived as being applied in a colonialist fashion to local gender cultures - it suffers from the same potentially universalising and erasing tendencies as does the term "shaman". One should be wary, therefore, of applying western identity concepts to non-western cultures. Similar criticisms have been levied towards the anthropological notion of the "Third Gender" as championed by Will Roscoe, Gilbert Herdt et al. So I'm in agreement with Mordant in being suspicious of blanket trans = shaman type statements or narratives.

Also
With Mysticism these "objective" criteria do not exist.

I'd refer you to the work of Meena Khandelwal - in particular her 2004 book Women in Ochre Robes: Gendering Hindu Renunciation - review here and limited preview via Google Books. One of the chapters discusses in some detail how the authenticity of the renouncer-mystics she is studying in contemporary Indian culture is to a large extent socially determined:

It was generally assumed by most people I met that, while the vast majority of sadhus are frauds, genuine saints do exist, and discrimination is required to distinguish between them. Using one's faculty of discrimination means not only comparing one sadhu with another or "shopping around" but also testing them.

Her work suggests that not only do Indians test sadhus in various ways, but they also consider their social background or biography, as well as discerning whether he or she can cure an illness, display some special insight into a person's past or future, or ... express some knowledge of the truths contained in sacred texts, whether obtained through scholastic learning or religious experience.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:06 / 23.04.08
Yeaaaahhh... I'd have to say that criteria do exist for mystics, but they're radically different. Over the last year or so I've found myself becoming a sort of community "results mystic" for various groups and individuals who need for whatever reason to access my main Guy. The work I do in that regard is definately mystical, but if the people concerned weren't seeing results I doubt I'd get repeat custom.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:26 / 23.04.08
Slightly contentiously, I'd probably push my statements above a bit further and say that anyone who hasn't taken their magic out into the world and applied it to problems and situations outwith their subjective control - isn't really any sort of magician, or at least any sort of sorcerer. I just don't think you can get much real experience of sorcery if you don't take it out into the world and see how it interacts with real life situations in all of their complexity and diversity. If your magic isn't getting out - then it exists as this theoretical thing that never gets tested and you can't really tell whether it will hold up under pressure. I see non-working magicians as being a bit like martial arts hobbyists who do an hours training every week, but have never actually been in a fight for real. You might know some moves, and be able to perform them in the context of the gym with a compliant opponent, but you have no idea whether they will actually stand up in a "live" situation.
 
 
darth daddy
15:28 / 23.04.08
I'll stick to my guns on this one. Certainly, one may have a satisfying and rewarding experience with a spiritual guru, and come to believe in the power of the guru due to your particular results. I'm not mocking this. My point is that your results are not necessarily obvious to third parties, like your Aunt Mary. Whereas your Aunt Mary would have to agree that your plumber fixed your broken toilet. I don't think we are talking about faith healing, which would be a different issue.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:36 / 23.04.08

I don't think we are talking about faith healing, which would be a different issue.

For me, community based magic means handling a broad spectrum of activities from doing magic to bring people a new job, a new lover, working protection magic on their behalf, healing work, divinatory work, uncrossing work, etc. All of which involve addressing a specific need or solving a specific problem for a client. If you fail to deliver the results, then it is as obvious as a plumber who has failed to unblock a drain and your client will not be happy. I think the field is probably a bit muddier if you're testing the value of a guru, mystic or spiritual teacher - but for community-based results sorcery, both you and your client do find out rather quickly whether or not you are capable of putting your money where your mouth is.
 
 
This Sunday
15:49 / 23.04.08
Well, yes, but Aunt Mary might not be qualified to determine whether modern medicine and repeated treatment has taken care of your cancer, either, and Uncle Dan might not be the best person to have confirm the existence of quarks, whether the area really has been sterilized, or if therapy sessions are any more productive in helping the family down the street get along better than if they'd all just bury their issues and behave like proper civilized citizens.

Magick isn't or shouldn't be treated as different from any other sort of specialization, focus, or technology. There's ignorance, and then there's ignorance that leads to false conclusions, including the conclusion that nothing has happened or that it happened for another reason.

I don't know that one has to be an - or the - expert, though. One can certainly have an interest in medicine without being THE DOCTOR, or one can have an interest and some awareness in plumbing without commiting your life to all forms or absolute totality of pipes and pressures. Sometimes it's just enough to be able to turn off the water, a little better to be able to install a toilet, and not much more. It's fine to know just enough medical type stuff to understand when you might need to go to a doctor, or why regular check-ups and physicals might be a sound notion; you don't have to perform the gallbladder removal yourself.
 
 
Quantum
15:56 / 23.04.08
I'd agree with GL wholeheartedly on that one, if I do a Tarot reading for your Aunt Mary she will either feel it is worthwhile or a pile of toss. There's your concrete feedback right there.

If your magic isn't getting out - then it exists as this theoretical thing that never gets tested and you can't really tell whether it will hold up under pressure.

I think of it as similar to music. You might sit in your bedroom on your own making noises you really like, but until you get your music out there you won't know whether you are gifted or just delusional.
 
  
Add Your Reply