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The Barbelith Totem Pole

 
  

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Glenn Close But No Cigar
16:08 / 08.04.08
Let us build together a beautiful totem pole. Let us do this by pasting images of faces one above another, so that build into a mighty edifice. Let us then dance around our totem pole, singing songs of peace. I'll kick things off...



 
 
Feverfew
16:14 / 08.04.08
That's not architecturally sound, surely? Look at the tapering on the bottom head!
 
 
jentacular dreams
16:17 / 08.04.08
Wasn't the middle one in star wars?

More seriously, Glenn, please leave it. You really are doing yourself no favours at the moment. Are you really at the point where the only interaction you can manage with barbelith is to try intentionally winding people up? Because that's how this is coming across.

Best advice I can give you is to put in a mod request to burn this thread, pop along to Books C&W, F&TV or G&G and try to join (as opposed to start - we can move onto that later) a discussion about something you have read/seen/played. Somethng harmless that would go some way to show that you're not just a troll, but more than capable of contributing posts of worth to the 'lith (I'm sure I've seen a few really good posts from you around the place, but they're dwarfed by the number containing summer wine references etc).

That or just go outside for a stroll. Either would do both you and barbelith much more good than this thread ever will.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
16:28 / 08.04.08
Architectural soundness be damned, the totem pole is held up by hope!

Andromeda Mouse, I really don't see this thread as a wind-up, and am hard pressed to understand why you might do so. It is, after all, a lighthearted collaborative art project, and what's wrong with that?



 
 
Feverfew
16:30 / 08.04.08
In creation, it would be a 'lighthearted collaborative art project'. In conversation, not so much. But, then again, you probably knew that.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
16:34 / 08.04.08
Well, I'm happy for it to be moved to creation, if that's what the Mods think wise. I'm still at something of a loss as to why the totem pole is, in and of itself, something to get upset about.
 
 
*
16:37 / 08.04.08
Oh let's do be racist together! Hurrah!

... on second thought, no. Let's not, in Creation or anywhere else.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
16:41 / 08.04.08
Racist? Could you expand on that, please?
 
 
This Sunday
16:53 / 08.04.08
Thanks, id.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:00 / 08.04.08
On a related topic, I imagine that everyone here is too damn cool to watch Love Soup, but I was astonished by an episode in which one of the characters starts seeing somebody who is or purports to be Native American. Not only was the character referred to as "Little Plum, your Indian Chum" (a character from a post-war children's comic in the UK), but the comic payoff saw the woman in question finding that the lock of hair she had given him was in an envelope with a large number of other locks of hair, all labelled with a woman's name, the comedy payoff being that he was "collecting scalps". I genuinely couldn't believe it.
 
 
*
17:18 / 08.04.08
Do I really, really have to?

"Come, let us string together a series of unrelated images, some of them racist representations and faux-primitive art, and call it a name invented by white people to describe complex artworks of Northwest First Nations People that they use to represent their clans and societies and the histories thereof. Let us dance around it and "whoop" and do other things humorously connoting savagery and primitivism. Surely this will not reflect any societal attitudes concerning people who have historically made and used totem poles for important political, social, and religious purposes."
 
 
grant
17:29 / 08.04.08
NB: racist representations...

Face jugs are more complicated than that.

But "hmmmm" with you on the whooping.
 
 
*
17:29 / 08.04.08
Wow, Haus. That's profoundly offensive for utter absence of any humor, let alone for the actual racism.
 
 
*
17:30 / 08.04.08
granted, grant, but it's use here is to represent a "savage" face.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
17:34 / 08.04.08
Glenn, I can help you here. What is a totem pole?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:34 / 08.04.08
For the record, I have no opinion, or rather could not offer an informed opinion, on what is going on with the totem pole thing here, or the politics of the term "totem pole" - I'm eager to learn, though.

But id - yes, that was the amaziing thing. It was so incredibly laboured - such a wheezing effort to get to this not-funny, overworked and racially offensive gag.
 
 
Saint Keggers
17:40 / 08.04.08

My main problem is its basically a "lets post pictures of faces, one ontop of the other, and pretend they're a totem pole" thread. And even if you ignore all the cultural (degredation? denegration? is that the right word) aspects of it the fact remains that its really, just a bad picture post thread.
This thread lacks even a least bit of effort or creativity.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
18:20 / 08.04.08
id, I'm not sure which of the images I've posted you consider to be racist representations and faux-primitive art. I'm guessing you are referring to the Face Jug, which if it is a Face Jug of the sort that grant mentions, has a more complex history than the one you are possibly ascribing it. I'd also point out that the Face Jug I posted has blue eyes, which rather complicates any reading of it as representing a non-white person / archetype. Also, while you describe the chap on the pot as a savage, he looks rather sweet and geeky to me, which is pretty much the antithesis of savagery.

I'm of course aware that 'totem poles' (the word 'totem' is in fact derived from the Ojibwe word 'odoodem', meaning something like 'kinship group') are complex objects, whose meanings and use differ even within the multiple communities that are identified, and in some cases self-identify, as the First Nations People of the Pacific American North West - although many anthropologists and indeed many First Nations people might question the precision of your description of them as 'artworks', a white man's term that is something of an ill fit. That said, there is enormous precedent in the history of art for taking a form (even a sacred form) from one culture and making something new from it without necessarily having any racist intent. We might think of George Braque's use of certain African communities' sculpture to open up new perspectival possibilities, or the influence of Moorish architecture on Northern European Gothic cathedrals. My 'totem pole' is offered up in a similar spirit. Whooping, I should add, is a pretty universal practice. Even Dennis the Menace does it, and he's never even been to Oregon.

As to Keggers' complaint of a lack of effort or creativity, I'd point not to me, but to those posters who instead of adding to the 'totem pole', chose to whine about it. Collaborative projects need, um, collaborators.
 
 
*
18:42 / 08.04.08
grant posted a link to an article about a Black artist practicing detournement on an art form with a racist history and cultural context. You can tell by the style that the face jug you posted is not one of his works, and at any rate detournement can only be practiced in sincerity by the people who are the target of the original attack. If you'd like to announce that you are Tlingit or Haida, I suppose now would be the time.

Your objection that the eyes are blue is fucking laughable. The pupils on that jug appear to be blue. No human has blue pupils; I suppose it's supposed to be a Fremen? Have you ever met a Black person with blue irises? I have. There are cultural traditions that certain indigenous groups claim date to before white people's arrival about families with blue eyes (irises). So fucking what. That's a distraction from the fact that that jug is either a representative piece of racist art that portrayed Black people as subhuman, or there's a remote chance that it's a piece of detournement art created by a Black artist who meant to draw attention to its racist cultural context. In either case, its presence here serves as ironic commentary on this thread.

You have proven yourself capable of locating the wikipedia article on totem poles. Congratulations. However, you conveniently gloss over the section on appropriation. You know full well that "whoop" is a word that evokes connotations of savagery when applied to indigenous people, and you used it anyway. Don't tell me that "art" is a concept only known to white people, which it isn't; I'm writing a MA thesis touching on that topic and I fucking well do not need to spend any more of my time thinking about it than I absolutely have to.
 
 
This Sunday
18:45 / 08.04.08
I have an urge to encourage some collaborative clobbering. Possibly involving large pieces of wood and interesting designs. To mark a great historic moment.

But, no. That'd be rude and unartistic. And I don't, really.

And, really: I'm guessing you are referring to the Face Jug, which if it is a Face Jug of the sort that grant mentions, has a more complex history than the one you are possibly ascribing it.

Zombie Korzybski rolls in his grave at so many current barbe-threads! Don't incriminate yourself with phrasing if you're going to take the high position.
 
 
grant
19:58 / 08.04.08
Well... the artist I linked to isn't actually detourning that I can see. He's reconstructing an African-American art form.

The one pictured above looks like it might be by Jerry Brown, who's a white man from Alabama (face jugs are really a Carolina thing). He may be detourning in a racist way, but I suspect he's not. Hard to tell, really.

I only mention this because I've got a face jug, or really a closely related artifact, sitting in my kitchen. A strange wedding gift, but now much loved.
 
 
*
20:13 / 08.04.08
Okay, I made a mistake with the face jug. I apologize to anyone who might have been mislead by my error. I've seen them displayed alongside southern white art of the pickaninny variety and assumed they were in the same category.

That's irrelevant to the racism of the overall thread concept, which so far as I can tell is "won't it be fun(ny) to make a totem pole and dance around it and 'whoop' and smoke peace pipes." Or, alternatively, "won't it be funny to start a racist thread about totem poles and make id turn funny colors."
 
 
Tsuga
20:27 / 08.04.08
Face jugs have a long and convoluted history. I'm sure there have been face jugs done with racist intent, but for the most part it's just a tradition, an excuse to make kooky faces out of clay. I've always thought they were hideous (I mean, they're supposed to be) but they are kind of compelling; many people just love them. Burlon Craig's face jugs can fetch thousands of dollars. But, it's not an art form originated by him or other white North Carolina folk potters, it's just another one that's been co-opted. But that's art; much of what's unfair in life is fair in art (to a blurry point).I believe it's that more than detournement. I don't know Glenn's intent, but I don't think face jugs are inherently racist at all.
 
 
Tsuga
20:28 / 08.04.08
sorry about the cross-post...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:30 / 08.04.08
You know full well that "whoop" is a word that evokes connotations of savagery when applied to indigenous people, and you used it anyway.

To be fair, that would never have occurred to me, either.
 
 
*
20:45 / 08.04.08
Glenn cites Dennis the Menace. The clearest memory I have of Dennis the Menace being said to be "whooping" is when he's dressed up like an "Indian". For a while when I was a young entity reading a lot of books written in the 1950s (they were cheap at the used book store), the only time I read the word "whoop" was when someone had the illness of that name or in the context of "Indian war whoops". From time to time when I was in grade school I had a substitute teacher who used to accuse noisy classes of being "Red Indians" who filled the air with our "savage whooping". I never hear the word used in ordinary conversation. What do you think it connotes? And if it's not linked with an idea of a specifically "Indian" way of yelling and making noise, why use this rather uncommon word in this instance instead of another?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:50 / 08.04.08
Oh, I'm not saying you're wrong in reading it that way. Just that whenever I've used the word "whoop" I've never been thinking of those things; I've always just thought it an expression of exuberance, with "w00t" being the internet equivalent. It honestly never occurred to me; maybe it should have.

(Incidentally, are you sure you're both talking about the same Dennis The Menace? There's a UK one and an American one...)
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
20:50 / 08.04.08
To be fair, that would never have occurred to me, either.

Me neither. Actually not only would it not have occurred to me but (and perhaps it's a cultural thing?) how does "whoop" evoke those connotations? Is there a specific context I'm ignorant of?
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
20:52 / 08.04.08
My intent, such as it was, was to begin a potentially fun, collaborative art project. If I'd wanted to do down the Tligit, Kwakiutl, Haida, or any other First Nations community, I very much doubt that this would have been the method I chose, or indeed the place in which I would have done it.

By the by, id, I wasn't saying that that "art" is a concept only known to white people, merely that the Western notion of an 'artwork' is somewhat reductive when applied to the objects under discussion, given that their meaning for and use by the communities they are rooted in is somewhat different from, say, that of the Mona Lisa, or a Jackson Pollock. Note that nowhere do I say that a totem pole is to any degree less valuable (on any index) than an artifact in MOMA etc.

Like Stoatie, I wasn't aware that 'whooping' connotes savagery. To me, it's a Famous Five, Just William, Dennis the Menace word, connoting gleefulness.

Finally, at least the left pupil of the Face Jug (indeed if that is what it is) is black, and the iris blue. There are, of course, black people with blue irises, but I'm not convinced that anybody wishing to make a racist image of a black person would, of all the colours available to them, pick blue for their peepers.

Looking forward to you collaring me for the racist implications of choosing a Wampa for my pole... I'd be careful, if I was you, of bandying around words like detournement... your use of if does rather smack of somebody who is completing an MA dissertation, and heading for a rather average pass grade.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
20:53 / 08.04.08
... oh I was so busy thinking about how to ask that but I should have just refreshed.

In that case I think "whoop" is a word that just sunk into English culture and gained a slightly different context... probably through Enid Blyton and 20th century comics like the Beano. That would have institutionalised the word generationally to the extent that the origin was completely forgotten.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
21:05 / 08.04.08
Glenn, no one cares about your intentions in starting these threads, if someone thinks what you're doing is the action of a complete c*** than chances are you're halfway there. When are you going to work that out?
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
22:28 / 08.04.08
Word to the wise, Darrell - the use of 'cunt' (which, unless, I'm very much mistaken, is what you meant by 'c***) as an insult isn't really on, many of Barbelith's finest possessing vaginas, and all.
 
 
Ex
07:31 / 09.04.08
I think c*** is precisely being used to be a non-gender-specific insult involving fluffy bits, as it could also be 'cock'.

I read 'whoop' as Native-American associated (and particularly to do with violence or celebration) - possibly because I've picked up bits of US Literature, but I just wanted to mention it's not a totally odd concept to me as a UK person.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
08:00 / 09.04.08
I don't regard myself as lacking education but I am aware that I don't have the type of memory that brings up specific instances so I would never connect someone whooping in a comic book wearing Native American clothing and then, later, when reading about critical thinking connect that sound/word to representations in such a way. If someone suggests this is the case I can recall those kinds of images but generally because I didn't think in that way at the age of 8 I can't remember thinking it at the time so it isn't a connection I make. The word whoop isn't stored away and I haven't read any literature to make me recall the presence of that word in that context. I think I'm not alone in that capacity, which is a shame because it's limiting not to be able to recall in that way and reshuffle, I think it would make me a brighter person.

And Glenn I have a vagina and I am finer than you.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
08:46 / 09.04.08
Let the pole reach for the sky!








 
  

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