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Have you ever laughed at a prejudiced joke?

 
  

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Glenn Close But No Cigar
18:16 / 06.04.08
Jokes that support racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. positions are, sadly, characteristic of many of the macro and micro communities we choose, or not, to participate in. I have no wish to reproduce any such jokes in this thread (and fervently hope no other member of barbelith will do so, here), but I'm interested to know whether any 'lithers have found themselves laughing at material of this sort. Did you feel guilty? How, if at all, did you attempt to make up for this reaction? Or do you feel - as I do - that any humour that supports prejudiced positions is inherently unfunny, and can claim that even the most well-constructed 'ist' or 'phobic' gag leaves their funny-bone untickled?

Again, I want to underline that reproducing any jokes that support prejudiced positions will, I hope, be seriously frowned upon in this thread. What I'm interesting in here is self-reflexivity, from a group of people who are by and large exemplars of how humanity might negotiate the difficult ground of difference and power.
 
 
Triplets
23:06 / 06.04.08
Have you?
 
 
pfhlick
01:40 / 07.04.08
I'll bite.

It would be a lie to say I hadn't. There have been occasions on which I felt the joke was so hyperbolic as to be almost impossible to take offense to (Kids in the Hall maybe? Some incredibly dumb chatter on music messageboards?), maybe others where everyone else around me laughed, dumb shits "bonding" through sexism and homophobia.

It's curious you should bring up the subject, because my younger brother recently sent me a survey about "mixed race identity" and it's gotten me thinking about my ethnicity and the culture I've grown up in. More than usual.

I don't repeat these sorts of things either, but I would have to be deaf not to hear them. I try not to let them pass my ears without protest whenever I can.

I wonder why you bring up the subject on a board like the 'lith, a place on the internet which I have found refreshingly free of such hateful chatter, even as a humble lurker?
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
02:57 / 07.04.08
I have, and don't feel too bad about it because Funny Trumps Everything. Michael O'Donoghue was a brilliant comic writer, and most of his stuff played off of race, sex and every other taboo available. If something is funny, it transcends most everything, much like Chris Rock, Richard Pryor and Sam Kinneson. When it's NOT funny is when it fails and makes me uncomfortable.
 
 
The Natural Way
09:11 / 07.04.08
Yeah, whether or not you find something funny is the important thing. Have no shame, boy.

Most heterosexual WASPs have, at some point, laughed at a joke that found its roots in prejudice, including me. It's a shit state of affairs, frankly, and proof, if ever it was needed, that we still live in racist culture and that most of us have no inkling of the degree of privilege we enjoy.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
11:21 / 07.04.08
Have you?

I don't want to have done so, and I don't want to do so in the future, but I have done so, and cannot promise not to do so again. In theory, I find any joke that supports a prejudiced position to be inherently unfunny, but in practice I have, very occasionally, found myself laughing at a gag that goes against the grain of my politics, and afterwards felt pretty disappointed in myself. I don't agree with Solitaire Rose that Funny Trumps Everything - as The Natural Way pointed out, one person's funny might not be another person's funny, which might not be the funny of hir over there. It might be interesting to explore the extent to which, if at all, laughter is an involuntary response...

Straight back atcha, Triplets - have you?

I wonder why you bring up the subject on a board like the 'lith, a place on the internet which I have found refreshingly free of such hateful chatter

As I suggested in my first post, it's precisely because Barbelith is largely free from this kind of thing that I'm putting the questions to its members. Many people here are, quite rightly, quick to challenge prejudiced positions, and I'm interested to know whether they have ever slipped into (perhaps involuntary) support of such positions by chuckling at an '-ist' or '-phobic' gag, and how they feel about that.
I'd also be interested in what contexts such chuckling occured - alone with a book / website / TV show etc, in a social situation with people who share one's own gender / race / class etc. profile, or in more mixed company...
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:22 / 07.04.08
To be honest I find a lot of them aren't even, you know, told like a joke. They're told like a sardonic statement about how terrible the world is (what with women lying about sexual abuse etcetera) in joke form, to which one is expected to respond with something along the lines of 'amen brother'.

Also, the difference between a (perhaps apocryphal) 'pure joke' which is racist, and one made simply because it is racist, because racism is 'un-pc' and somehow 'brave' etc, etc? Perhaps. I may be letting people off the hook. I don't see, for example, the scenes in the Marx Brothers film where they black up as particularly funny or innocent, but at least they seem to be doing it 'because this is funny' as opposed to doing it 'because its racist'. Again, I may be wrong.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
12:21 / 07.04.08
That's all well and good, AAR, but have you ever laughed at a racist, sexist, homophobic etc. 'joke', of any of the sorts which you identify?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:09 / 07.04.08
Not at any of those above, no - they just don't register as funny. I'm all up for general misanthropy, body humour and well-done character assasinations; even jokes about small animals being stamped on and so on will raise a chuckle depending on mood.

Yet there's something about the claim to be breaking taste barriers (whilst actually normalizing and reinforcing them) or indulging in freedom of speech (whilst actually blocking out/dismissing other opinions or readings) which just takes away the humour of most racist/sexist jokes. Genuinely shocking humour/satire doesn't leave anyone standing or big anyone up. It's also a lot harder to do good satire than it is to do good bizarre humour.

This is pretty obvious in the Little Britain TV show, I think - the hotelier who responds to people with a bizarre whistle and personifies cakes and machines was funny, the Vicki Pollard bollocks wasn't. Likewise, Bernard Manning only seems at all funny until you switch over and find Monty Python or Charlie Chaplin.
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
13:14 / 07.04.08
I think anyone who says they've never laughed at an off-colour joke is a liar.

A jokes by their very nature tend to make the subject or the protagonist look stupid. So if the joke is about someone from another race, that could be construed as racism. If a joke is made about man/woman that's sexist, if a joke is made about someone of a certain sexual persuasion that's homo- or hetrophobia. If a joke is made about an old person that's ageist. If a joke is made about a doctor you're prejudiced against doctors. Other religions, social statuses, height, dis-ability ...... on it goes.

Heaven forbid if you happen to make a joke about an old short Mongolian Amish blonde lesbian paraplegic doctor.....

What cracks me up is that people tut-tut, wag their finger and then write things like "Most heterosexual WASPs have, at some point, laughed at a joke that found its roots in prejudice" Which doesn't make any assumption or stereotype at all. In a similar way that it cracks me up that it goes largely uncommented upon. Sounds like racism with a halo to me.

Am I the only one that sees the irony?
 
 
Char Aina
13:25 / 07.04.08
I think anyone who says they've never laughed at an off-colour joke is a liar.

Speak for yourself, not for others. Yes, I have laughed at dodgy jokes, but it is insulting for you to tell people what they are like when you have, clearly, never met even a tenth of the people on this planet.

If the joke is about someone from another race, that could be construed as racism. If a joke is made about man/woman that's sexist, if a joke is made about someone of a certain sexual persuasion that's hom[...] on it goes.

I disagree; "Man walks into a bar. Ouch." Is not a sexist joke, despite being about a man. When the comedy comes from a prejudiced principle, it is prejudiced. When it doesn't, it isn't. The comedy of that joke does not come from a prejudice we are all expected to share(men are clumsy, say) but from a twist on our use of language. Bars and bars. The joke would operate equally well if it was a squirrel, a woman, a flying saucer pilot, whatever.


Heaven forbid if you happen to make a joke about an old short Mongolian Amish blonde lesbian paraplegic doctor.

Heaven doesn't forbid it, it just thinks it's kinda sad. Same with hell, though; nobody likes a shit comedian.
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
13:27 / 07.04.08
You don't see the irony then?
 
 
Char Aina
13:30 / 07.04.08
What is irony?
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
13:31 / 07.04.08
That's a fairly subjective question isn't it?

Just pointing out double standards is all.
 
 
Char Aina
13:36 / 07.04.08
Oh, certainly. I think definitions are almost entirely subjective. Largely that's why I'd like you to define it, so that I can answer you with the minumum of confusion.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:43 / 07.04.08
Good grief...

Well of course we've all laughed at eggy jokes because losing your prejudices and stepping up to combat prejudice in the people around us is an ongoing process. Nobody here is claiming to be in some state of grace wrt to racism, sexism, etc., we've all grown up in a culture that is more or less racist/sexist/homophobic etc., we've all said stupid horrible shit and laughed at stupid horrible shit, we all cringe about it now, and anyone who says different has evidently fossilised within hir prejudices. The important thing is to keep on striving to recognise and uproot those fucked-up ideas.
 
 
Ex
13:44 / 07.04.08
A jokes by their very nature tend to make the subject or the protagonist look stupid. So if the joke is about someone from another race, that could be construed as racism. If a joke is made about man/woman that's sexist, if a joke is made about someone of a certain sexual persuasion that's homo- or hetrophobia. If a joke is made about an old person that's ageist. If a joke is made about a doctor you're prejudiced against doctors. Other religions, social statuses, height, dis-ability ...... on it goes.

If you're working in the 'making people look bad' field of humour - spectacles of embarassment, making the audience appalled at someone's behaviour, etc - then you can do that in many ways. You can do it in a way which uses and reinforces existing stereotypes (backed up by things like political and economic disadvantage). Or you can actively work against those stereotypes, or you can just sidestep them and do something else which produces revulsion, embarassment, etc.
I don't, therefore, think at all that a joke about a lesbian has to be potentially homophobic - a think a joke which relies on a shared assumptioon that lesbians are X, Y and Z (and thus shit) is homophobic, one which uses a lesbian character but which derives its humour from another source needn't be, one which amusingly defeats expectations on that front could be anti-homophobic.

Or there can be jokes in which people from [disadvantaged group] interact with another fictional character, not from that group, and it's the other character which 'looks bad'. Again, not necessarily dodgy, even if rooted in taking the piss out of someone else, and revolving around a potentially tricky topic.

Also, a lot of jokes are funny because they make the teller 'look bad'; some of my favourite jokes about race, gender and so on involve self-deprecation.

So I think going 'damn, this is how humour works, so accusations of homophobia etc. are unavoidable' is a cop-out.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:49 / 07.04.08
Nobody's tut-tutting. This isn't bloody school. Rose explained to us that if he found something funny that was the most important thing. I pointed out that he looked like a selfish nob for saying it and then simply observed that most of us had reinforced prejudice at some point in our lives. It's called being self-aware, Fungus. There was nothing ironic about it.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
13:49 / 07.04.08
Good point, Mordant. When was the last time you laughed at an eggy joke?
 
 
Char Aina
13:56 / 07.04.08
Yeah. One of my oft-told jokes recently has been the "What do you call a black man flying a plane?" one.

The answer is, of course, "A pilot, you fucking racist." It works because most people expect it to be a racist joke, and instead it points out that the listener is prejudiced themselves(One person so far has said 'a pilot'. I've told it a good few times).

(It is not without it's own dodginess, of course, and I apologise for dirtying the thread with it. If it isn't deemed fair use, i'm happy to spoiler tag it or remove it.)
 
 
Ex
13:57 / 07.04.08
To answer the original question, my own funny bone is located in some fairly grim and unpleasant places, but jokes which rely on big prejudices tend to freeze me up, even if I technically admire them (and they often feel a bit clumsy and flabby because they're appealing to such broad notions). I can't think of any which amused me recently.

I have found really amusing some jokes in which the teller seeks sympathy in the set-up and then is revealed to be comically bigotted in the punchline. I don't repeat them, though. I think they can be well intentioned, but then delivering that punchline implies that a joke can be funny enough to justify saying a really vile thing. 'My joke's more important than any discomfort it's going to cause the audience', in other words. Or 'We're so anti-racist we can now makes jokes that involve racial slurs as punch-lines, ho ho'. Which shades, in some instances, into: 'I've told this joke so I can say a vile thing without come-back'.

I'm not some kind of paragon - I'm more likely to be charmed and then made uncomfortable by other kinds of creative projects - I'm a sucker for 'character' stuff in music which is often dodgy. I think my guard is more often up around comedy.
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
14:00 / 07.04.08
OK, good comment Mordant.

I think it is also important to remember that this issue extends well beyond the domain of "hetrosexual WASPs".

Can anyone tell me any society that is untouched by racism? Why are certain blatantly racist attitudes in certain countries (take Japan for example) are viewed as being somehow more acceptable than in other countries? Isn't this just racism in reverse?

Do you think it is at all possible that these types of jokes can actually bring about an awareness of a problem or issue?

Why is it that a joke that is acceptable coming from one person's mouth is not acceptable from another person's? Again, is this not just racism in reverse?

For example, I'm a big fan of Dave Chappelle. I certainly wouldn't dream of saying some of the jokes he does, because, as a Mediterranean Caucasian, it would be considered very racist. But when the exact same joke comes out of Dave Chappelle's mouth it's OK.

So I think we just need to realise that there is a line that exists. On one side a joke might be technically racist, and on the other side it is downright racist!
 
 
Char Aina
14:02 / 07.04.08
Why are certain blatantly racist attitudes in certain countries (take Japan for example) are viewed as being somehow more acceptable than in other countries?(sic)


What basis have you for the assertion regarding the 'blatant' and 'acceptable' nature of the racism of other countries?
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
14:09 / 07.04.08
I think anyone who knows anything about Japan, or who has spent any time there, will tell you that there is a very widespread culture of racism. But this is written off very lightly as Japanese "culture"

I'm sure a new thread in Barbannoy is being written about my latent racism against the Japanese as we speak.....

If you would like examples of Japanese racism the internet, which you are now on, is replete with them.
 
 
Char Aina
14:11 / 07.04.08
Show me some, then. If it is so common, it should be easy to demonstrate that Japanese people are/culture is more racist, blatantly so, and more acceptable.

Show, don't tell.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
14:12 / 07.04.08
Why are certain blatantly racist attitudes in certain countries (take Japan for example) are viewed as being somehow more acceptable than in other countries?

I think you need to unpack this a little. You haven't mentioned who finds the racist attitudes of some Japanese people more acceptable than the racist attitudes of some people from other nations, or given a single example that this is the case. I'm guessing that what you mean is that some WASPS find WASP racism less acceptable than racism as practiced by some non-WASPS. Perhaps it would be more useful to say that some WASPS, being WASPS, are particularly attuned to the social, economic, cultural etc. context in which WASP racism exists, and as such feel better placed to criticize WASP racism than, say, racism that exists in other contexts?
 
 
Char Aina
14:12 / 07.04.08
Also, I'd still like to hear your definition of irony, with particular reference to the irony you mentioned upthread, if possible.
 
 
Ex
14:19 / 07.04.08
I think it is also important to remember that this issue extends well beyond the domain of "hetrosexual WASPs".

OK, I'm remembering it.
I don't think, though, that it affects my earlier comment, which was that you don't need to use and reinforce dodgy stereotypes to make a joke involving lesbians or non-white people. If anything, it extends my point - if you're a Japanese comic, I imagine the same choice exists, between relying on cliches for laughs, and doing something new and not racist (even if it's still making someone look stupid).

Do you think that's unavoidable, and thus pretty much has to be ethically permissable? That seemed to be the gist of your earlier post. Now we've moved on to 'everyone else does this too', but that leaves unanswered the question of whether jokes have to do it at all.
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
14:32 / 07.04.08
The United Nations would be one example of an organisation that has raised concerns.

Japan rascim 'Deep and Profound'
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
14:39 / 07.04.08
Life Critic,

Scroll up to my original post on this thread for the irony.

Or you can see it at work again. Or maybe it's just a double standard.

Does it not strike you as slightly ironic that we so easily and without rebuke identify "hetrosexual WASPs" with racism, and yet the moment I mentioned Japan, I have to justify via links to proof for my assertion.....

So I'm just wondering why The Natural Way doesn't have to supply proof to the assertion "Most heterosexual WASPs have, at some point, laughed at a joke that found its roots in prejudice"

Isn't this just racism at work?
 
 
Evil Scientist
14:45 / 07.04.08
Why are certain blatantly racist attitudes in certain countries (take Japan for example) are viewed as being somehow more acceptable than in other countries?
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
14:46 / 07.04.08
Peter, despite your link to this news story, I'm still no nearer understanding the point you're trying to make. However well you might document the prevalence of racist attitudes in Japan, it doesn't for one second make the suffering of those who are exposed to racist attitudes in your homeland of Australia, or indeed my homeland of the UK, one single bit less horrible.
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
14:46 / 07.04.08
Evil Scientist,

What as the point of that?
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
14:47 / 07.04.08
Glenn,

What the fuck?

"it doesn't for one second make the suffering of those who are exposed to racist attitudes in your homeland of Australia, or indeed my homeland of the UK, one single bit less horrible."

Who said it did?
 
 
Evil Scientist
14:51 / 07.04.08
I thought it would help to answer your question.
 
  

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