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Ethics, Money & Corporate Power. Can they co-exist?

 
  

Page: 12(3)456

 
 
Fist Fun
09:50 / 27.03.08
I just don't get how socialism where "enterprises of all kinds publicly owned rather than run for private gain." is better at increasing monetary wealth than capitalism through private enterprise.

Private enterprise works well because people compete with each other the best companies at generating wealth thrive.

In what way are public owned companies better at generating wealth? How does that work?

Totally agree that a lot of public functions aren't about generating wealth such as education and health and there is a discussion to be had about how the role of private enterprise there.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
10:23 / 27.03.08
I just don't get how socialism where "enterprises of all kinds publicly owned rather than run for private gain." is better at increasing monetary wealth than capitalism through private enterprise.

Because all people are included in the system that increases individual wealth rather than some people who are working within companies that specifically make a profit and pay their staff well?
 
 
Fist Fun
10:39 / 27.03.08
"Because all people are included in the system that increases individual wealth rather than some people who are working within companies that specifically make a profit and pay their staff well? "

I don't understand that explanation. I think the point you are making is about inequality rather than an explanation of why socialism is better at generating wealth than capitalism.

Everyone is included in the system under capitalism. The competition between people is one thing that creates value.

Obviously, there a lot of major downsides to that competition.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:40 / 27.03.08
I'm not totally sure what "increasing wealth" means, still. Purchasing power? The amount of cash money in circulation? What are the things we identify as indicative of increased societal wealth (for example, in 2002 Cuba had better infant mortality stats than the US, although that doesn't tell the whole story, but is manifestly possessed of fewer currency reserves, or less guaranteed currency debt, anyway)?
 
 
Pingle!Pop
10:52 / 27.03.08
Well, apart from anything else the private competition --> wealth thing is an assumption, and nothing more. It has a certain kind of logic behind it, but it's not the only logic possible to employ, and it turns out that it's wrong.

As per Haus, I'm not an economist - just a politics student - but how about we try an alternative model. How could a more centrally planned economy, for example, be better at generating wealth? Well, for a start, it's possible to take a more holistic model to the economy. Even if one assumes that the actors in a private enterprise system are entirely rational beings - which they're not, no-one is - what's in the interests of the heads of a company is not necessarily in the interests of the economy.

To pick an example off the top of my head, do you know of the practice of Starbucks and a few other companies to saturate and then leave the market? Basically, they'll move into an area and open more stores than is necessary, wait around until all the local coffee shops have been bankrupted by their presence and had to close, and then close those of their own stores which are superfluous. I'm sure that's good for the bank balance at Starbucks, but it seems a bit wasteful to me overall.

Or again, it's often good financial sense for a company to keep the wages of its workers as low as its possible without losing too many of them to competition. Is it good for the economy overall? It might be worth the tradeoff for an individual company if a few people leave their jobs but they're able to keep rubbish working conditions and low pay, but I'm not sure it wouldn't help wealth creation overall if those people weren't just paid more but stayed put.

And then there's your basic public services - things like health and education. I assume, as you seem to suggest, that you can see where getting private enterprises in here could really mess things up; basically, a health insurance company, for example, is only likely to pay for healthcare if it makes good financial sense to do so. If the balance of cost against reputation isn't worth it (which includes, incidentally, things like whether the would-be patient is in a position where they'd be able to kick up enough of a fuss to actually damage their reputation), the insurance company won't pay out.

I think the effects of things like this on the economy should be clear; if a workforce is unable to get the healthcare it needs, or receives a poorer education because that's what it's cheaper to provide, it's pretty obvious that's going to have a knock-on effect on productivity. However, I'm not really convinced that there's a clear dividing line between "public services", such as health and education, and everything else. Let's go back to fast food outlets. Ronald McDonald don't give a ****, unless it's going to land him with a lawsuit, if all the people pouring in and out of his stores are going to go on and have heart attacks as a result of doing so - if he can cut costs or sell a few more burgers by replacing some part of them with a big globule of saturated fat, he'll do so. However, the health of the nation, and therefore of the economy, isn't going to be so indifferent.

Moreover, in a capitalist system you've potentially got a lot of people who are superfluous. Take private healthcare again: as I've said before, the US spends *more* on healthcare per capita than anywhere else in the world, but overall gets atrocious results. Where's all that extra money going? Well, you've got a lot of people handling insurance, who should get healthcare and who shouldn't, doctors wasting their time on the phone to insurance companies begging them to accept that their patient needs an operation right now, and so forth. That's a lot of time and energy wasted that wouldn't be in a publicly provided system. And then again, you have people who make their whole living playing with the stock market, moving money from here to there. Are they being productive? Not at all.

... And then, finally, there's plenty of evidence to suggest that, simply, poverty produces ill-health. Not just absolute poverty, but relative poverty. Essentially, greater inequality in a society leads to worse overall public health, full stop. Oh, and the old argument from Marx about alienation from one's labour, whereby someone who is not alienated from their labour and is able to connect to its real-life positive effects will be fitter, happier, more productive.

I think that's a decent few reasons why a more socialist system might help the economy overall?
 
 
Pingle!Pop
10:54 / 27.03.08
Triple cross-post there, but I think it still all applies. As far as I can tell, Buk, you seem to be stuck on a paradigm of competition = wealth creation which simply doesn't actually hold in reality.
 
 
Fist Fun
11:34 / 27.03.08
So, Moomin, how would coffee shops work in the centrally planned economy? They would all be publicly owned and run? How would you go about starting one? How would you decide where they should be placed? How many there would be in each town? What kind of coffee they would sell? How healthy the food is?
 
 
Pingle!Pop
11:47 / 27.03.08
I don't have 1337 coffee-house-planning 5k111z. However, why should the way they're planned now be superior to their planning under a socialist system? I've pointed out that all the evidence that does exist suggests that capitalism is actually an inferior system in terms of generating wealth, I've offered some explanations as to why this might be and why alternatives might be superior, and if I'm not misunderstanding you, you seem to now essentially be ignoring everything I've written in my last post to ask how I would go about planning the running of coffee houses in my socialist system. This strikes me as being at the very least diversionary.
 
 
Fist Fun
12:05 / 27.03.08
I don't mean to be diversionary Moomin. I am genuinely interested. It is an important interesting discussion.

Could you have a shot at how coffee shops would work under a planned economy? Just a rough idea answering the questions above.

For me, in the capitalist economy where I live, there is a really good network of coffee shops. You have big chains like Starbucks and Costa Coffee and lots of independent ones as well ranging from workers collectives to family run businesses. None of which are publicly owned. They compete, the have different strengths, one went out of business recently, there is a vegan one which relies on volunteers and generally they all muddle along pretty well.

Do you imagine that the world would be better if the coffee shops were removed from private ownership and put in to public ownership. Would that be a practical example of the approach you are suggesting?
 
 
Pingle!Pop
12:33 / 27.03.08
Okay, sorry. Part of the reason I thought you were being diversionary was because I kind of did outline ways in which a non-capitalist system might be superior in running the coffee shops in the first post. That is, things could be planned holistically, meaning that certain waste resulting from the capitalist system could be avoided, and they could also have an interest more synonymous with the public interest.

So as I said, for example, you wouldn't have the phenomenon of coffee shops being pushed out of business just so the money can flow to another coffee shop chain, and the wastefulness inherent in that, and it may be possible to adjust menus in a way which benefits the public health - say, using healthier ingredients rather than cheaper ones. I mean, there are those who argue that there's a business case for things like making healthier food because it would attract certain people, but I don't think anyone would state it's likely to be an overriding concern of any capitalist enterprise, and it's clear from the current system that firms pushing ethical concerns are relatively niche.

Basically, yeah, I do think that things are best off in public ownership, including coffee shops. Private enterprise is inherently interested in its own profits. The way in which this inevitably implies a lack of ethical concerns is pretty obvious, and I'd state that this alone should be sufficient to overwhelmingly favour public ownership, but I'd also argue - and the evidence suggests that this is indeed the case - that what is in the interests of the economy of an individual company (or specifically those at the very top of an individual company) is not necessarily in the interests of the economy of a country as a whole.
 
 
Fist Fun
12:52 / 27.03.08
So if it was up to you you would take all the coffee shops - the chains, independents, family run and workers co-operatives that happily flourish under capitalism and place the under centralised state control where they are not run for private profit?

The reasons for this are, for you, the following

- it is wasteful when coffee shops go out of business due to competition from other coffee shops
- publicly owned coffee shops would sell healthier items contributing to better overall health
- privately owned coffee shops are run for profit rather than promoting ethics
- the interests of individual coffee shops often clashes with those of the economy as a whole and therefore regulation at a national level is required

Is that a fair summary of the reasons, from your last post, you think all coffee shops should be placed in to public ownership?
 
 
Pingle!Pop
13:04 / 27.03.08
Ish.

The second point is a "could" rather than necessarily "would", although I'd certainly state that the private profit imperative can work against things which are in the public interest such as health (which, even though it's worth pursuing on its own, in turn affects the economy).

The first point is somewhat more complicated than you've put it, but yes, I certainly think that various scenarios under a capitalist system are potentially pretty wasteful. I'd say the better example, insofar as this relates to coffee shop, is in my first example up there, where you have a company like Starbucks opening extra chains specifically for the purpose of driving other shops out of business and saturating the market, and then closing again.

Points three and four are more or less correct.
 
 
Fist Fun
13:29 / 27.03.08
Cool. This i how I would reply to those specific points then.

- it is wasteful when coffee shops go out of business due to competition from other coffee shops

Competition is good because it spurs people and companies to be better and more efficient. In a competitive environment survival of the fittest ensures high standards. So if a coffee shop isn't very good it loses out to a rival and the better coffee shop flourishes. If there is no competition then people either have to put up with a rubbish coffee shop or just stop drinking coffee in coffee shops. If there is no competition there is no incentive to be a good coffee shop to keep and gain customers. So if you remove competition you provide an environment where bad coffee shops can flourish.

For the particular Starbucks example I would say that sucks and is a case of anti-competitive behaviour which would be dealth with in a capitalist system under competition legislation.


- publicly owned coffee shops would sell healthier items contributing to better overall health

It isn't the role of coffee shops to determine what is best for people. That should be left to individual choice.


- privately owned coffee shops are run for profit rather than promoting ethics

It isn't the role of coffee shops to promote ethics (or national government in the main). That should be an individual choice. I don't see the problem with running a business for profit. A healthy business generating profit is good for the owner, workers and society in general.

- the interests of individual coffee shops often clashes with those of the economy as a whole and therefore regulation at a national level is required

There are definitely situations where external constraints should be placed on business in order to promote the general good. This doesn't require public ownership of business.

On top of that I think central planning would be bad for coffee shops. Without profit or competition there would be little incentive to be a good coffee shop or to start up a coffee shop.

I believe businesses like coffee shops in communist countries were notorious for bad service, lack of choice, etc. (Although maybe I have just been believing propaganda there I have no first hand experience of this). So centralised planning has been tried and failed whereas capitalist free enterprise is a roaring success.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:42 / 27.03.08
I have to ask, Buk - why are you having this discussion? It feels currently as if late-stage capitalism is your girlfriend, and you are defending imputations against her honour. Which is particularly odd since this is meant to be a discussion about ethics, which has been hijacked by the Capitalism versus Socialism medicine show, primarily because, in the absence of any indication of how you measure wealth, we can't assess the increase of wealth as an ethical good.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
14:10 / 27.03.08
Okay, Buk; I'm going to start with this:

Competition is good because it spurs people and companies to be better and more efficient. In a competitive environment survival of the fittest ensures high standards. So if a coffee shop isn't very good it loses out to a rival and the better coffee shop flourishes. If there is no competition then people either have to put up with a rubbish coffee shop or just stop drinking coffee in coffee shops. If there is no competition there is no incentive to be a good coffee shop to keep and gain customers. So if you remove competition you provide an environment where bad coffee shops can flourish.

This:

A healthy business generating profit is good for the owner, workers and society in general.

And this:

I believe businesses like coffee shops in communist countries were notorious for bad service, lack of choice, etc. (Although maybe I have just been believing propaganda there I have no first hand experience of this). So centralised planning has been tried and failed whereas capitalist free enterprise is a roaring success.

And, you see, the problem here is that as I've pointed out repeatedly, the evidence suggests it's incorrect. What evidence there is suggests that centralised planning worked better than capitalism; I'd suggest that a system with greater equality is inherently better, but even by the standards you're using - pure generation of wealth - capitalist systems just don't seem to do that well. Another quote from the article I cited earlier, which I think is extremely effective at pointing out in a concise way how wrong the misconceptions about poor economic performance under central planning actually are:

Even well-cited and well-regarded textbooks routinely make erroneous statements, such as "it is not clear if the current Russian president can reverse the decades of deterioration that preceded the collapse of the Soviet Union" [Eiteman, Stonehill, and Moffett 1998]. One cause of this misperception is the fact that Gorbachev himself (and his leading advisors and academicians) often criticized the efficiency of communism and even referred to the 1970s and 1980s as being periods of "stagnation and decline in the economy" [Marcy 1990].

So, yeah, it's an incredibly common misconception, but it's still a misconception. The rest of the article then points out how much more growth the countries governed by Communist parties experienced relative to the capitalist West.

It just seems that you keep stating that capitalist enterprise is much more efficient and better at generating wealth - because... well, as far as I can tell, because you think it stands to reason? - even though I've pointed out repeatedly that the evidence which exists indicates that this is not in fact the case.

Beyond that::

It isn't the role of coffee shops to promote ethics (or national government in the main). That should be an individual choice. I don't see the problem with running a business for profit.

I personally find this viewpoint on how things should be run absolutely abhorrent. I find it hard to comprehend that any idea of public good can be relegated, effectively, to "so what?". Which kinda brings us back to the original point of this thread.

(Actually, that makes me think of another point as to why a socialist economy may perform better. The fact that it can sometimes be profitable to provide a shoddy service is undeniably bad for the economy. Take planned obsolescence, for example. How messed up is that? People's gadgets and so forth are made so that they'll break after a while and people will buy more. It seems pretty obvious that making products designed to break does not make brilliant macroeconomic sense.)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:34 / 27.03.08
Sorry, I'll be good. Having said which, isn't this a bit dubious?

There are definitely situations where external constraints should be placed on business in order to promote the general good.

Why? Business generates wealth, lifts people out of poverty and serves the greater good anyway. What can state regulation do to improve that?

Furthermore, your claim that anti-competitive practices law should restrict Starbucks is also Communism. Why on Earth should the state be interfering with the free decisions of the marketplace? Starbucks has provided a service: if the customer wants the other coffee shops to survive, he or she will patronise them. When Starbucks has scaled back, if there is a demand for other coffee shops, coffee shops will spring up anew to supply that demand. You are arguing for a state-controlled economy in which business is constrained by concepts of ethical practice imposed by national governments. Given that we know that the free market makes everyone happier and better-off, and any failure to make people better off is a direct result of constraints on the free market, this seems not only to be Statism, but a doctrinaire Statism at the expense of the common good.
 
 
Fist Fun
14:40 / 27.03.08
I have to ask, Buk - if you aren't interested in the economics, why are you having this discussion?

West - Nah, I am interested in the economics of it. I just think the public ownership of all business would be a bad idea and I'm discussing that.

Is the idea that the all businesses should be publicly owned and private enterprise banned a common one here? Would anyone else be happy to put all coffee houses in to public ownership?
 
 
Fist Fun
14:43 / 27.03.08
"You are arguing for a state-controlled economy in which business is constrained by concepts of ethical practice imposed by national governments"

Yep.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:50 / 27.03.08
But why? I just explained above why what you are aiming for is not capitalism, but Statism with a degree of private ownership allowed, under the control of the state. What do you think the state does better than private enterprise? Why should it control what private businesses can do, when private businesses are clearly better at generating wealth (although we have not defined what wealth is) and thus making people's lives better? You've said that businesses are "greedy", but that's not much of an answer - businesses presumably want to be as successful as they can be in a free market, and preventing them from doing so impedes wealth generation and thus the broader existence of as-yet-undefined social goods. As such, what but doctrinaire Socialism could argue for regulation? I'm quite sincere in this question - it seems to be a basic disconnect.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
14:57 / 27.03.08
Is the idea that the all businesses should be publicly owned and private enterprise banned a common one here? Would anyone else be happy to put all coffee houses in to public ownership?

Appeal to popularity, surely? But yeah, I'm sure if most people in the US or UK were asked if they'd prefer their coffee shops run by the state, they'd say no. On the other hand, I'm not sure you wouldn't get the opposite reaction if they were already owned by the state - things like railways and so forth are somewhat different to coffee shops, I accept, but in general privatisation is not vastly popular - or if the inhabitants of said countries hadn't been told constantly by Very Knowledgeable People that, as you've been stating consistently but as appears to not actually be the case, the running of coffee shops by private companies makes everyone richer.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
14:59 / 27.03.08
... Or, more generally, that "most people would say x" means that x is right.
 
 
Fist Fun
15:04 / 27.03.08
I think stuff where, as Moomin says, the interest of private companies clashes with the general interest then private business should be constrained by external controls.

I think businesses will be greedy and that greed is often good due to the nature of competition and the profit incentive but obviously it has a bad side to which you control with state regulation.

Pretty much what we have in the UK and EU at the moment but definitely NOT the public ownership of all business.

How would you manage coffee shops West? Do think that all coffee shops should be removed from private ownership?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:09 / 27.03.08
But yeah, I'm sure if most people in the US or UK were asked if they'd prefer their coffee shops run by the state, they'd say no. On the other hand, I'm not sure you wouldn't get the opposite reaction if they were already owned by the state - things like railways and so forth are somewhat different to coffee shops, I accept, but in general privatisation is not -vastly popular -

Well, this is true - the privatisation of the Rail providers in the UK was a disaster, for service quality and the public purse, and the PPP is doing little better. One, however, could argue that the problem there was the dead hand of the state, rather than the free market, and that if the privatisation had been _more_ market-driven - with private businesses managing the competitive tender - the prices gained would have been better - of course, that would have meant that the service would probably have been more expensive. However! That could have been offset by having _proper_ competition in a free market - that is, trains from several providers not just using the same track but aiming to arrive at almost the same time - so, two trains race for the platform. The first one arrives, and an announcement tells punters that getting on this train to (x) will cost (y). Those who do not want to go to (x), or who do not want to pay (y), can wait on the platform and see what the next train has to offer, or go to another platform to see if it meets their needs better.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
15:14 / 27.03.08
However, Buk, the problem there is:

A) That greed doesn't work as an exceptionally good basis for wealth creation. It won't become true just because you keep saying that it is.
B) You're drawing a very distinct line as to what constitutes "the general interest". There are, basically, an infinite number of ways in which a company can do something which contradicts the public good - and almost invariably will if it saves it a few pennies overall - but you're putting, say, massive environmental destruction, active poisoning of people, things which are particularly nasty on one side, and then everything else on the other. If the profit motive is the primary driving force behind the running of things, this will regularly be antagonistic to the public good in too many ways that it could be possible to legislate against, and you've indicated that you wouldn't want to legislate against the less egregious stuff anyway. It makes an awful lot more sense to me if the goal of everything which is run is the public good.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:16 / 27.03.08
I think businesses will be greedy and that greed is often good due to the nature of competition and the profit incentive but obviously it has a bad side to which you control with state regulation.

But here's the thing - I don't understand what that bad side is supposed to be. First explain to me what "greed" means when applied to a corporate entity rather than a person. Then explain to me first how competition increases the net wealth of citizens within a nation, how the profit incentive in companies improves the quality of life for inhabitants of a nation. Then explain to me what the bad side is - give me specific examples of actions that companies take which are so bad that one has to betray one's belief in the free market and unfettered trade to control them. Why can't you just let the market decide? If one company is using child labour, say, then other companies can publicise this in advertising, and consumers who do not want to fund the exploitation of child labour can take their trade elsewhere. That's freedom of choice in a free market - what's so wrong with that?

Then and only then might I be able to understand the arguments for the more intricate microeconomic questions of coffee houses. At the moment, I'm sort of all at sea. I thought that you and Pingles were arguing for capitalism and socialism, but you now both appear to be espousing different forms of socialism.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
15:57 / 27.03.08
Maybe a little semantics would be in order? Like, what do poster a, b and c mean when they type in "capitalism", "socialism", "ethics" and "corporations"? I think without some major clarifications there's no way this discussion will go anywhere.
 
 
Fist Fun
16:20 / 27.03.08
"I don't understand what that bad side is supposed to be."

The bad side would be when, as Moomin has said, the interests of a private company (profit) clash with the interests of society.

For instance, a company can make 1 pound profit while causing 1 pound of environmental damage which it doesn't have to pay for.

I think everyone agrees that that is bad but we disagree on how best to correct that. Moomin believes that public ownership of all business is the best solution while I believe private ownership and state regulation through policy and law backed up by a free press is the best solution. Examples being the UK and EU states.

In the case of child labour I want that to be regulated because it is a breach of human rights. I don't believe human rights and the private ownership of business are incompatible. I don't think anyone could sensibly argue that free trade should be allowed to operate no matter what the cost. Examples of well run countries with private enterprise and good regulation and government would be the UK and EU states.

"At the moment, I'm sort of all at sea. I thought that you and Pingles were arguing for capitalism and socialism, but you now both appear to be espousing different forms of socialism."

For me at the moment the discussion is about whether it would be a good thing if all business were to be run by the state rather than private enterprise, in particular whether all coffee shops should be run by the state.

Do you think all coffee shops should be run by the state, West? Moomin has already explained why he thinks it should be so and it would interesting to get some more thoughts on why this may be a good or bad idea.
 
 
Fist Fun
16:35 / 27.03.08
"massive environmental destruction, active poisoning of people, things which are particularly nasty on one side, and then everything else on the other."

I agree that this stuff is bad and that it must be prevented. I don't agree that public ownership of all business is the way to this.

"If the profit motive is the primary driving force behind the running of things, this will regularly be antagonistic to the public good in too many ways that it could be possible to legislate against, and you've indicated that you wouldn't want to legislate against the less egregious stuff anyway."

I would say that following the model of the UK and EU states that it works fine. That it is completely possible to legislate to minimise harm from business. It works very well. Yes, it is vastly difficult to do and there are inevitably going to be problems - like any system - but it works.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:46 / 27.03.08
But I still have no idea of what you mean by "works". I don't know what you mean by wealth, I don't understand what good is being generated here. We've already discussed at length what might make the EU countries different from other (capitalist) countries, none of which you appear to think was worth taking on board or responding to, so from that I've deduced that as far as you are concerned the only thing that makes a country either successful or unsuccessful is how free its markets are.

Except now it turns out that you _don't_ believe that - you believe that markets should be controlled, for ethical purposes - so, for example, business should not be allowed to maximise profit if maximising profit causes environmental damage. Rather wonderfully, you appear to be saying that that is the situation as it stands in successfully capitalist countries.

Then, on top of that, by advancing the cause of the EU countries you also seem to be saying that you don't believe in free markets, and that protectionist practices and tariffs are not only justifiable but a part of the ideal setup. At which point, I confess, I become confused, because whereas I think you were originally arguing for a capitalist society operating under free markets, you actually want controlled economies where markets are controlled to assist autochthonic business. In that context, does it matter whether a coffee shop is run by a private company which has to follow the rules of a government, or an outcropping of that government, which also has to follow the rules of a government? Either way, you've got an uncompetitive, state-run system, with bars to the free market - for example, tariffs on processed coffee make it uncompetitive for developing world coffee farms to sell directly into their own high-street coffee shops, so instead they sell their raw materials to companies registered inside the protected zone, who process them and realise the extra profit of selling coffee grounds in a cup rather than coffee beans.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
16:55 / 27.03.08
She, please. It makes me pretty uncomfortable politically and personally for it to be assumed otherwise.

Anyway:

I agree that this stuff is bad and that it must be prevented. I don't agree that public ownership of all business is the way to this.

The point I was making is that you seem to be saying *only* things of that kind of scale are worth preventing; and indeed, it's the case that things that aren't of that kind of scale can't be legislated against.

You keep saying that it works. What's your standard for this? The West started at the emergence of capitalism as a major economic model substantially ahead of - indeed, as Haus says, owning - much of the rest of the world. Since then, under a capitalist system, its growth in economic terms has been pretty mediocre - poorer than countries which adopted more socialist systems, with greater public ownership. Is that working?

Beyond that, I think that even if basic economic growth was equal or even better in capitalist countries, there's still so much wrong with capitalism that I could never consider it to be working. Every year, a quarter of a million people die in the richest country on the planet as a result of poverty (Hahn, 1995). That, to me, is abject failure.

(X-post with Haus.)
 
 
Fist Fun
18:36 / 27.03.08
It would be useful West if you would answer, just as Moomin I have, the question I have asked twice. Which for some reason you have avoided. Are you in favour of coffee houses being run by the state rather than private enterprise?
 
 
Pingle!Pop
19:19 / 27.03.08
I don't want to speak for hir, but I'd guess Haus has avoided it for the same reason I was initially reticent, which is that the only reason I can think of why you'd ask it is so you can then attack a straw man version of socialism/state-run enterprise instead of addressing any problems pointed out in your own arguments. However, if you're going to start accusing people of avoiding points, there's quite a lot that I've written over the last couple of pages which as far as I can tell remains to be addressed or acknowledged.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:12 / 28.03.08
Not even that, so much as I don't really see what the importance of the name on the deed is; if your coffee house is supported by a system in which the free market is constrained, in which import taxes prevent the direct import of ground coffee, in which governments subsidise coffee production in the face of falling crop values, I don't really see why who has their names on the deed of ownership of a coffee shop should be the single elemet that determines whether we are talking about capitalism or socialism.
 
 
Fist Fun
08:23 / 28.03.08
Yeah, ok, but can we can just have a go at this first.

Are you in favour of coffee houses being run by the state rather than private enterprise? If you were in government and this came up for a vote, after all the debate and fine speeches, what would you vote for?

I don't mean that as discussion of capitalism versus socialism. I just mean what is the best way, or a way, to have good coffee houses.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:53 / 28.03.08
So, hang on - we've talked about the economic impact of trade practices in Nigeria, in Tanzania, in Malawi, in Cuba and so on, and you're not going to talk to any of that, but you're sticking on coffee houses? Nothing can be discussed until everybody states their answer to a question you have formulated about coffee houses in terms you have conceived?

Oy. I think that's kind of an uncompetitive restraint on the discussion.

I've already answered your question, though, I think. I don't see that the ownership of coffee houses - public or private - makes much difference in your formulation.

To look at why, let's have a look at a real-world example. Did you know that all off-licences in Sweden are run by the Swedish government? That doesn't make a huge amount of difference to the consumer of alcohol. What it does do, however, is allow for things that you, espousing a socialist/mixed-economy/statist/protectionist model, might want privately-run businesses to be compelled to do by legislation - for example, not sell alcohol to children, not sell alcohol to visibly intoxicated people, not sell alcohol below cost price as a loss-leader. Practically, though, the effect is much the same. In both cases, the state is imposing limits on the business' ability to be competitive and to trade freely. Your initial claim was that generating profit increases wealth, and that the freer trade is the more profit is generated and the better-off everyone is - remember where you claimed that obviously what was wrong with Chad, and the reason why it was not as prosperous as the UK, was that it did not have enough access to free markets?

So, if our measure of good is how much wealth has been generated, which is the only measure of good you have so far identified, and the only arguments against maximising competition are fluffy and nebulous ideas like "environmental damage" and "human rights", how can anyone who does not subscribe to socialism argue for limiting the ability of companies to generate as much wealth as possible? I'm not saying a mixed economy doesn't make sense - I'm saying, specifically, that this formulation doesn't make sense.
 
  

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