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Ethical eating, Vegetarianism, Veganism

 
 
Proinsias
01:00 / 08.03.08
Hi Barbelith,

My food, my brain and my wife have recently combined to make my life far more confusing. I was hoping some people around here might have some concrete or rather better thought out ideas than myself, as seems to be the case with most stuff.

Background: I have always been omnivorous as has my wife, until recently. My other half was of the opinion that meat, fish etc should look as far removed from being alive as possible when presented as food eg skinless, boneless, preferably battered or whatever. The only real issue I've had with my dinner once being an animal was that it's life may have been rather less pleasant than my own.

We have been trying to put into practice being a little more ethical in sourcing food using a slow but steady level of progress.

That changed a few weeks ago and it's all Jamie Oliver's fault.

Now I'm not Mr Oliver's greatest fan but we watched him when he was killing chickens on live tv a month or two ago. Seeing a chicken die on tv immediately turned my other half vegetarian and in the past few weeks to
veganism.

It's the vegetarianism, veganism and general ethical living thing I'd like some input on.

I'm not too fussed about my spouse not eating chicken balls again or opting for rice milk with her shreddies. It' the strong stance on shellfish, which she has never eaten, that's got me confused. Discussions have been rather circular over recent weeks. Mainly me trying to thrash out why it's not ok to go winkle picking but is ok to wipe my rear with a dead tree as long as it's from a renewable source and my wife explaining it's because of science
and pain and stuff.

One thing that came to mind as a perhaps rather extreme example was another mention of the biggest living thing on the planet by Quantum over in the Temple. Now from a vegan point of view it would seem to me to be quite ok with lopping bits off this organism and transferring the bits straight into a pan with some oil and garlic. I'm not sure I agree with eating the largest living thing on the planet. I think the problems encountered when things get very big are just as awkward, if not more so, when the vegan
philosophy encounters things which are very small.

I was just wondering about the views of others around here regarding renewable plants and renewable animals and the like.

And perhaps more importantly if anyone knows of ethical sources for salami, chorizo, Polish sausage or something of that ilk in the UK then I'd be more than impressed.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
09:58 / 08.03.08
When you pull a leaf off a tree you don't kill the tree. When you kill a shellfish it is dead.
 
 
Proinsias
10:11 / 08.03.08
I was more referring to chopping a tree down and converting it into toilet paper than removing a leaf from a tree or taking a slice off the back of a live cow.
 
 
petunia
10:31 / 08.03.08
Ecologically speaking, there's a very good argument for not eating sea animals.

Shrimping is a massively harmful enterprise, with up to 2.7 pounds of off-catch for every pound of shrimp caught (i.e. 2.7 pounds of other sea life that is trawled up then dumped).

Fish stocks are reaching scarily low levels. I think i read that if current fishing levels continue, we stand to lose two thirds of the species of fish we have in the sea.

Before I went veggie, I stopped eating all fish/other sea animals. It's an ecosystem which is being raped and which will likely not recover.

As for large things, the argument makes sense on a logic of pain (i.e. shrimps feel less than blue whales), but if you take into account that all ecosystems are massively complex, the question of what (not) to eat becomes informed by different matters - what damage to the chain will be made by taking a certain life from it?

If you look at thing in this way, it becomes easier to defend things like sustainable forestry over trawler fishing, just as it becomes easier to defend sustainable fish-farms over cutting of virgin forest.

For me, the ethical question of whether or not to eat another animal can be split into two parts: there is the question of whether one feels justified in taking another life in order to sustain your own, which I feel is largely a personal matter of choice, and there is the question of how much damage your choice will enact on the erst of the living systems on earth, which I feel to be a more 'universal' ethical question.

Obviously, there are complications with this position, and there is no straight line where one position stops and the other begins, but I think it is a useful distinction to make if we want to discuss the political implications of ethical eating (simply: I would like to see legislation against damaging food production, but do not think one should legislate agaisnt animal products).

I'm at work at the moment, but will try to dig out some good links when I get home.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:39 / 08.03.08
On the face of it, the quality of the animal's conditions is probably the key question; a short life running about the fields with enough to eat and so on is better than no life, arguably. Without the commercial imperatives of agriculture, green fields, spring lambs and that sort of thing wouldn't exist. Instead the (European, anyway) countryside would, for the most part, become a long, large industrial vegetable patch - that may not matter when put up against more pressing issues, but it's maybe something to think about, all the same.

On the other hand, while you'd hope that cattle being grazed in what, say, used to be Amazon rain forest are being treated decently, does that necessarily justify their existence?

I'd agree that eating fish is going to become increasingly problematic over the next ten years unless farming techniques improve fairly dramatically, and wild fishing's restricted, again fairly dramatically.
 
 
Papess
06:50 / 09.03.08
I agree with everything that has been said here already, especially what Petunia has mentioned. Great topic, Proinsias. Thank you for approaching this topic in this manner.

Recently, I had this very conversation with a very dear friend of mine who is a much wiser practitioner of Vajrayana Buddhism than I am. Having been a vegetarian and a vegan at one time, reverting back to eating meat, and now questioning the reasons for making these changes as I am feeling repulsed by meat-eating.

When my friend and I discussed this as Vajrayana practitioners we understood it in the philosophy that all of existence suffering. Now, this is not as simple as that statement seems, as some would take it. For example, I was making us tea and was questioning my reasons for wanting to be a vegetarian as it makes sense as a Buddhist. However, in Tantric teachings in Vajrayana, one learns not to be repulsed or to approach everything with "one taste" (pun certainly not meant here). To want to eliminate suffering is a compassionate measure and good, ethical practice. However, to reject eating meat also held a certain ethical quandary for me.

Then my friend so poignantly remarks "You are contributing to the suffering in the world by making us tea." She was so right.

We talked about the suffering that must be experienced by dairy cows, by the lives of those who gathered our tea, and the animals that died in the process. As well as the sugar fields, which are burned at some point in the harvesting causing much suffering to many creatures. I will never look at my tea the same way again.

Now, part of me simply chooses to eat vegetarian because it just nourishes my body better. Mostly because I cannot stand the manner in which animals that are raised for consumption are treated is transferred (or remains) in the flesh. So, not only did this poor animal live an unnatural, unhappy life, I am now eating that unnaturalness and unhappiness. When I don't eat free range meat, dairy and eggs, I notice the unhappiness in me. I feel the changes in my energy level and in my emotions. Especially when eating meat from an animal that has suffered from horrible birth to horrible death, untold cruelty out of human greed and ignorance. The only thing I can do at this point is pray that that being is never used as food again and attains a higher rebirth, one free from such suffering. It is all that can be done at that point and in some ways I am compelled to eat these poor animals because I can pray for their liberation, and I do. Some would say that I don't have to eat them but it is a manner of making their death less of a futile event and made divine by offering it as a feast. Although, it would be much more preferable to me if humans were not causing this kind of suffering in the first place.

I don't know how to justify toilet paper. It is a question I have been dealing with, Why do we cut down trees to use to wipe our ass and ironically, also use as currency. That's alchemy for ya, I guess. I choose to use the recycled paper, at least till I figure out something that makes sense and I can teach a child to do also.

Here is an excellent article"The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View", by Charles Eisenstein. I found it on the The Weston A. Price Foundation website. It maybe helpful to you, Proinsias.
 
 
Mistoffelees
08:10 / 09.03.08
Why do we cut down trees to use to wipe our ass and ironically, also use as currency.

I donĀ“t know about US or British banknotes, but the Euro banknotes are not made out of paper, but out of cotton. I remember that the German banknotes were made out of linen.
 
 
Papess
13:04 / 09.03.08
You are right about that Mist. My mistake

It is the same regarding Canada and U.S currency as well. I believe we use a blend. However, both cotton and linen are still derived from plants. Except at one time, the US did use silk.

As far as ethics go, cotton raises a whole bunch of new issues. Including the use of dangerous pesticides and herbicides and the large consumption of water that cotton uses. It is also should be considered that there have been genetic manipulations to cotton made over the years to which can be argued ethically both favourably and non-favourably.

I am not certain about linen. I don't think it's has many ethical issues regarding production and processing. However, still a plant.

Toilet paper, even "recycled paper" rolls still uses large amounts of virgin tree pulp and have environmental concerns regarding forestry Here is a good website for reading up on hygienic products and the environment.
 
 
Papess
13:29 / 09.03.08
After reading further about linen, there seem to be just as many environmental concerns. At least, concerning the linen we use for bed and bath products.

Gah! DO human beings ever consider anything at all other cotton/linen banknotes when doing anything on this earth? To be truly environmentally ethical is nearly impossible! Not that one shouldn't try, but the simple fact that a person cannot go about their day without coming into contact with some environmental atrocity or ethical quandary is overwhelmingly disheartening to me.

At this rate, changing little by little is just not fast enough, is it? It's all going to have to come to a screeching halt and we are going to have to start over.

Okay, now I am just going to go and cry into my cup of tea. I am fucking monster.
 
 
Proinsias
15:14 / 09.03.08
Cheers for the replies.

petunia:

I see the point regarding sea animals, shrimping and the like. This is not really enough for me to avoid eating them completely though although it may be enough to stop me buying them in Tesco. Sea, and I suppose by relationship land, ecology does seem to be in great danger from the fishing industry however I don't see this as a reason to become avoid eating sea animals completely. If I eat fish fingers every day then I accept I'm no eco warrior but if I give in to locally sourced shellfish that have been hand picked once a year or so and are swimming in a mouthwatering white wine sauce, organic fair trade wine of course, then I don't see too much of an issue.

As for large things, the argument makes sense on a logic of pain (i.e. shrimps feel less than blue whales), but if you take into account that all ecosystems are massively complex, the question of what (not) to eat becomes informed by different matters - what damage to the chain will be made by taking a certain life from it?

The big/small problem is often applied to animals but rarely seems to be applied to other forms of life, maybe I should spend more time hanging around the Temple. I would suggest more/less evolved might be a better way to term it and although this also comes with it's own issues it should help against child labour.

For me, the ethical question of whether or not to eat another animal can be split into two parts: there is the question of whether one feels justified in taking another life in order to sustain your own, which I feel is largely a personal matter of choice, and there is the question of how much damage your choice will enact on the erst of the living systems on earth, which I feel to be a more 'universal' ethical question.

I think the first part of the question of raises issues for me when talking with vegetarians. They very often cite the eating of animals as the 'taking of life' and I usually mention that plants and fungi are also alive until you kill and eat them or even eat them alive, I'm usually dismissed as being silly. It often strikes me as odd that the who people seem most concerned with animal life often seem almost ignorant of the fact that the other things they eat were/are also living beings. I'm not saying this is the case for most vegetarians or vegans it's just something that seems to crop up rather frequently whenever I've discussed it in 'meat space', this is my first foray into discussing it online.

The second question is one which I'm trying to ask myself more and more about stuff in general, not just what I eat, and probably brings in another point you made: Do I eat the sustainable fish from the farm or the organic veg from the field where the indigenous forest used to be? If a friend serves me both on the same plate which one can I enjoy more?

I assume most people would like to see legislation against damaging food production and I feel that there does seem to be a general push in this direction from the general public over the past few years. I would just like to be one step ahead of the game, one of the cool kids if you will.

AG:

You raise a good point about happy animals. I see veg etc as unable to go through much of the suffering that animals endure but the flipside of this is of course that animals can experience far more happiness and joy than it would seem veg can. My wife has stated that the egg eating part of her veganism would go out of the window if we get around to having a few happy chickens in the garden, again much of it seems to do with the methods of obtaining animal products and not always the products themselves.

Papess:

First things first, If you're putting milk and sugar in you're tea then you ain't drinking good tea. Bad tea needs the addition of the suffering you describe to become palatable, good tea requires none of this. There's good tea available online if you're willing to pay, If you're looking for a way in then it doesn't get much more Buddhist, religious, spiritual and social than the preparation & drinking of Japanese matcha. Some of the top dealers will be able to tell you in detail exactly where the tea came from as they purchase it directly from growers who have been in the business for many generations and from what I gather many are not in the business of suffering workers. Some is even sourced via Zen teamasters.

Sorry, I can't help myself on the tea thing.

Anyway......

The ideas of suffering you describe sounds very like some of the Taoist diet ideals, eg not consuming anything that has been involved in suffering as the consumption of misery and suffering can only lead to misery and suffering. I like this idea and it is something I would like to aspire to, I just don't see the immediate exclusion of all animals from the lifestyle. Again the taoists seem to favour the less evolved when corpse crunching avoiding cows and indulging in shellfish, insects and the like.

My own take on it is still being thrashed out. Much of the east seems to avoid dairy and with the logic that your child will be dumb as a cow, stubborn as a goat etc if reared on that milk. I can see some logic in this coupled with the 'less evolved' means 'lunch' point of view. I don't imagine a prawn confusing my daughters biology too much but I could see chimpanzee milk confusing the biology of a very young human as things like milk tend to far more then just sustenance, I'm saying chimpanzee as it is very close to humans biologically but goats and cows are obviously closer than plants or shellfish or whatever.

The reason I'm going with a slow but steady view to change as in my experience I can't sustain major change for long without reverting to the other extreme, veganism would probably turn me to McDonalds atm.

Cheers for the links Papess I'll have a look over them the evening properly but I thought I should chip something in before too long.

Money and paper issue: Stick it to the man and wipe your ass with banknotes, I think.

The taoist reasoning I've heard about toilet paper is that if you eat a good diet you don't need toilet paper, most wild animals manage fine without it. Eating irresponsible means having to wipe off that irresponsibility with more irresponsible stuff.
 
 
petunia
17:52 / 09.03.08
On a spiritual level, it's dependent on what your particular views are. If you seek to wholly avoid the causation of any suffering, then you're best off doing the hardcore Jaian thing and sticking only to fruits and nuts, i.e. the things plants sepcifically offer to us for consumption.

Obviously, this is still open to problems - if you want to avoid problems with animals and such being killed during the harvesting process, you will need to go pick your own fruit and nuts - something that isn't much of an option if you want to do anything with your life other than pick food.

It is impossible to live without killing. Even if we go for fruit and nuts, we are still digesting the living flesh of these things to provide us with energy. The simplest balance of being is that death feeds life as life feeds death. To try to avoid this situation is an impossible excercise - even if one decides not to kill anything else at all, one must kill oneself and cause one's own suffering.

So we have to accept that death is not necessarily a bad thing; in fact it is a pretty fucking awesome thing if we consider it as the possibility for continuation of life. To seek a way out of this equation would simply be nihilism.

Sooo... The above is why I still consider myself rather undecided in my vegetarianism. If we are all part of the same flux of life/death, then we are equally responsible for and permitted to the lives of others. At its deepest, that juicy steak is already a part of me before it is even cut from the cow...

But at the same time, we are equally responsible for nurturing this life in a positive way and it is difficult to figure out what the best way to do this would be.

Which is a way of saying that I think what we take must be balanced with what we give. Much of organic farming seems to be geared towards this - protection of the soil in which crops are grown maintains a healthy land and a good enviroment for local wildlife, etc.

I would be okay with eating an animal if I could get a proper grasp on where it has come from, but it strikes me as a lot easier at the moment to just assume that most cattle is bred in negative ways. However, there is the argument that I should try to find ethical producers of meat and support them, thus improving such practices - market forces, like.

In New Zealand, wallaby is a non-native pest that needs to be kept under control or it will wreck the native wildife. It is hunted and sold in the supermarkets. I'd be okay with eating that. Weka, a native bird, has just come back from near-extinction to good levels again and some Maori are asking that they be given rights to hunt and eat this traditional food again. I am not so okay with that.

Based on this consideration of balance, I don't find it at all defensible to eat any sea-sourced animals at the moment. Stocks are so low that the knock-on effects are already proving disasterous for sea birds, seals etc. The whole system is collapsing faster than many people are even aware of (or want to be aware of).

Even farm fishing is problematic, as non-local species frequently escape from farms and cause havoc to local ecosystems. Add the fact that the seas are massively contaminated with all kinds of plastic shit and heavy metals (meaning that a shrimp is likely more damaging to your littl'un than a glass of milk) and I'm left without any reason to think that it's okay to eat sea-sourced animals.*

I remember watching an episode of countryfile where North Sea fishermen were demanding a seal cull because the seals are swimming into the nets and steal fish with increaasing regularity. The simple twist of logic from 'we've overfished these seas' to 'the seals are stealing our fish' dumbfounds me, but it's the only kind of logic that will be processed as long as there is monetary incentive to fishing. The same applies to destruction of forests, grasslands etc. As long as the money is in it, nobody will consider stopping.

From what I've read, things are pretty fucked and getting worse, so I think a general boycott of any suss production methods is the only way to go. If people start voting with their wallets and move towards organically produced, sustainable methods of farming and production, the companies will have to take heed and (hopefully) the governments will follow.

All of which is pretty much just a rehash of what I said above - it matters less what specific thing you are eating, but more how that thing was produced and what impact such production had on the world.

The matter of more/less evolved is an interesting one, but only if you consider evolution as teleological (i.e. there is some goal in evolution, and we are the closest so far, then the chimps, then...). It might make sense to base it on the congitive powers of the animal, in which case eating a horse should be prefered over a pig. (I'm reminded here of the radical vegan scientist/activist who took this argument to its logical extreme and asked why we should kill pigs when we do not kill people who show less cognitive abilities than pigs. Extreme argument, but shows the difficulty with this line of thought.)

I'd suggest that we consider it in terms of systematic damage - the world can afford a Wallabee in the above example, even though it likely has greater cognitive powers/evolved later than the Weka. Farmed animals are okay, as long as the farms use organic methods (no chems leeching into other land) and use sustainable systems of rotation, rather than slash-and-burn expansion.

It leaves a lot to be desired as a basis for ethical thought on food, and is obviously a lot less immediate than considerations such as 'can it think? does it look like me?', but I think it's probably more effective in terms of results.


*Bearing in mind, of course, the fact that many societies are reliant on seafood to live. This is also a problem as many of these societies have massively expanding populations reliant on massively decreasing food stocks. These areas are a major problem in terms of envirnmental theory, as a lot of the damage is happening here. The (correct) arguments that we (in the richer countries) cannot hypocritically demand that poorer countries stop destructive methods of production, while relying on the fruit of these methods necessitates a plan for how we are to go about protecting the environment without crippling the growth of these countries.

The first step, obviously, is to stop buying products that are problematic (i.e. shrimp from India, palm oil from Malaysia) and hurting the local people and environment (Too many countries are having their food sold to rich countries for a higher price than locals can afford).

This needs to be coupled with increased research and education in methods of sustainable production. It is unfair to withdraw trade from areas that are largely depended upon it, without providing a better means to supply such trade. Many initiatives are encouraging organic and sustainable farming in Africa, for instance. My organic tea is sourced from China.
 
 
Proinsias
10:18 / 13.03.08
Thinking on my feet now the whole Jain/fruitarian thing doesn't really cut it 100% for me either. Fruit or nuts in my mind are not offered to us by the plants, it seems more that the plant is offering them to an animal that will not crunch them up and shit them out in an environment that that is about as inhospitalble as possible. Perhaps If I was only eating local, seasonal fruits and nuts and then going to the local woods instead of my toilet It might absolve me of the guilt.
On the other hand does it count if we waste some seeds and then go to lengths to ensure the plant reproduces?

I agree with you on the idea that life and death are two sides of the same coin, even the words become pretty meaningless if they don't have each other.

So we have to accept that death is not necessarily a bad thing; in fact it is a pretty fucking awesome thing if we consider it as the possibility for continuation of life. To seek a way out of this equation would simply be nihilism.

I think we also have to remember that life is not necessarily a good thing either, but yeah.

But at the same time, we are equally responsible for nurturing this life in a positive way and it is difficult to figure out what the best way to do this would be.

I think I know what you mean but when life & death begin to part with good & bad then, in my mind, so do positive and negative.

Much of organic farming seems to be geared towards this - protection of the soil in which crops are grown maintains a healthy land and a good enviroment for local wildlife, etc.

Would you include organic animal farming? I suspect so, but it's worth checking.

However, there is the argument that I should try to find ethical producers of meat and support them, thus improving such practices - market forces, like.

I think this is where my heart lies. I see me becoming vegan having little support from me and having little impact on the diet of those around me. I see me consuming small amounts of animal produce (and really enjoying it), that has be as well sourced as possible, as perhaps encouraging those around me to better source, and make more use of, the animal products they inevitably will consume.

Interesting that you mention the eating of wallabies as one of the things that got my head moving a few nights ago was when watching Hugh-Fearnley Whittingstall blagging grey squirrels from a pest control guy and then barbecuing them. Is it okay to kill and eat animals that we introduce into habitats that they then dominate, I'm not sure although it seems better than farming.

The matter of more/less evolved is an interesting one, but only if you consider evolution as teleological (i.e. there is some goal in evolution, and we are the closest so far, then the chimps, then...). It might make sense to base it on the congitive powers of the animal, in which case eating a horse should be prefered over a pig. (I'm reminded here of the radical vegan scientist/activist who took this argument to its logical extreme and asked why we should kill pigs when we do not kill people who show less cognitive abilities than pigs. Extreme argument, but shows the difficulty with this line of thought.)

If we don't consider evolution as teleological then I still think my problem persists. If there is no goal then the problem still persists. If I accept creationism it does not mean I'm going to feel the same about beheading a gorilla as I would a locust.

I do not think that the more/less evolved yardstick has to be telelogical to be of use. It is simply another way to help weigh the situation. Deciding not to feed cow's milk to very small children, in many cases, has an end goal that is not much further than someone trying not to confuse their childs biology. The idea of using evolution I have in mind is I suppose two fold, the more evolved the being is considered the more thought we should give to how it has been treated and on the other angle using it in a similar way to the inbreeding concerns - eating the products of those beings that are more distant relatives in the family tree. The reason I have a problem with the teleology idea is that I feel the decisions are based on here, now and where we've come from not necessarily taking too much stock of an ultimate goal. The problem with cognitive ability as a yardstick is that some of the stuff that lives in my gut, and probably suffers a sticky end everytime I have a few whisky's, would perhaps be valued above a tree several hundred years old.

I think I'm trying to avoid the fact that I'm going to have to make tough decisions regarding food until I die and I'm convincing myself that vegetarian/veganism would just be a way for me to avoid a lot of those decisions when I should really be judging each case on it own merits or otherwise.
 
  
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