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New Dave Sim Works: Glamourpuss and Judenhass

 
  

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matthew.
05:09 / 28.02.08
What does "Godwin" mean in this context?
 
 
Mug Chum
06:09 / 28.02.08
wiki article.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:51 / 28.02.08
The sixtieth anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz in 2005 made me think that every creative person should consider doing a work addressing the Shoah... at some point in his or her life.

1) I'm looking forward to the Roger Hargreaves version.

2) Hang on. Sim has opened up the possibility that a woman can be a creative person rather than a giant sucking leech on the male body. Is he going soft on his rampant misogyny?

It's not like Sim is the first person to draw a link between the Third Reich in Europe and comics creators like Siegel and Shuster creating superheroes that could give Hitler the punch on the chin they couldn't do.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
14:07 / 28.02.08
Heidi MacBeat wonders in a very long but worth reading post if you can set apart the brilliant work from the bigot artist.
 
 
grant
18:23 / 28.02.08
his next book was going to be called Bernie the Happy Red Aeroplane,

Well, nearly but he probably had some licensing problems.

By the end of that article, I'm left supposing it's a bit like collecting art from serial killers. The same mechanism at work. Not that I'm comparing Sim to Hitler or Gacy (those lovely clowns!), but there's something there.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:41 / 28.02.08
I don't think, Stoatie, that redemption is being sought.

Yeah, I know, but hope springs eternal. Look, if anyone's running a book, I'll put money on this being more misogynist mentalism. But if we couldn't have hope that the unlikeliest things may occasionally happen, the National Lottery would be fucked.

OK, I lied when I said I'd probably buy it. I'll most likely read it in a shop, or online. That way I get to piss off Dave Sim AND John Byrne. All free of charge.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:47 / 28.02.08
Not that I'm comparing Sim to Hitler or Gacy (those lovely clowns!), but there's something there.

Hey, at least Gacy got out of the house occasionally.
 
 
Jack Fear
21:08 / 28.02.08
That's exactly the thing, Stoat, that I find so weird about this project. Sim has just come off of, essentially, a thirty-year contemplation of his own navel—a 6,000 page experiment in spiritual autobiography and philosophy—and is just now starting to notice that there's a world beyond the confines of his own head and his comics collection.

And now, after years of being profoundly and aggressively disengaged from the larger world except inasmuch as it occasionally intersected with his own narrow and eccentric field of interests, he's taken it upon himself to explain history's greatest evil to us all.

The hubris and the arrogance of it are monumental. But what makes the enterprise irresistible is Sim's loopy, naïve sincerity. He's so earnest about this—he's like a college freshman who's just read Howard Zinn and holy shit his mind is blown. It's almost poignant, in a nostalgic sort of way—because we all have that period when we recognize the weight of history on our shoulders, and our place in the continuum, and we realize some larger truths about the world—and yeah, it is kind of mind-blowing.

But coming from a 52-year old man, it makes me want to throw up my hands and yell, "You're just figuring this out now?"
 
 
penitentvandal
21:25 / 28.02.08
The Third Reich versus the Fourth World!

Am I alone in thinking this would be a much better comic than Dave Sim vs the Holocaust?
 
 
Captain Zoom
23:34 / 28.02.08
*quietly, but desperately, tries to reseal can of worms and slink back to lurkerdom*
 
 
matthew.
01:06 / 29.02.08
Heidi MacBeat wonders in a very long but worth reading post if you can set apart the brilliant work from the bigot artist.

This is sort of what I was trying to say.
 
 
Essential Dazzler
19:31 / 05.03.08
The first issue of Glamourpuss is really fucking boring.
 
 
Mark Parsons
20:59 / 05.03.08
*quietly, but desperately, tries to reseal can of worms and slink back to lurkerdom*

Zoom, for god's sake don't press that button!!

In all seriousness, Sim is a fascinating convo topic. Heidi's post is excellent.
 
 
Jrod
02:48 / 20.03.08
Sorry, but that preview for Judenhass is disgusting.

Haus already mentioned that Sim seems to think that the real horror of the Holocaust is that it might have claimed all his favorite comics writers and artists, but it's worth pointing out again. This is a man who will state, in all sincerity, that he could never hate Jews because they created the comics industry. It's not enough that they are human beings, oh no. It's all about what the Jews have done for him, Dave Sim, unappreciated genius. Why, had all those lovely Jews who created the first comics been killed, the world may have been denied Cerebus the Aardvark! I could puke.

His animated preview spends over half of its time listing every award Sim ever received. That would still be incredibly tacky if he was doing a comic about happy red airplanes, but he's making a comic about the fucking holocaust. Sim can't even reign in his bloated ego for five minutes and leave the spotlight his so-very-important story. He gives us a couple minutes to let the horror of Auschwitz sink in, then it's five minutes of "Hey, lookit me, I'm Dave Sim! Did you know I wrote the longest comic story of all time? As long as you don't count any Japanese comics, of course! Oh, oh, check out my awards! I sure am a great genius, ain't I?" It's sickening.

Sim doesn't leave much time in his preview outside of fluffing himself, but he does make a point of dismissing those who died in the concentration camps who weren't Jewish. See, the holocaust is a Jewish thing, so bringing up the gentiles who died is just bad form and probably antisemitism, oops, I mean Judenhass. I'm sure the fact that the others included leftists and homosexuals has nothing to do with it. Speaking of which, do you suppose he'll try to make a distinction between hating the other when that other is Jewish, and hating the other when that other is female, left-wing, or "extremist" Muslim (where extremist equals Arab or Persian, apparently)? If he does, the book might be worth buying. And when I say "buy," I mean "download from piratebay."
 
 
FinderWolf
02:50 / 21.03.08
is Glamorpuss actually out? I haven't seen it in stores anywhere...
 
 
Essential Dazzler
12:40 / 21.03.08
Glamourpuss isn't out yet. Sim sent a few thousand copies to retailers.

You can find it naughty ways.

The most tedious thing you will ever read. Seriously.
 
 
Dusto
22:44 / 27.05.08
Sorry, I missed this thread when I posted this one:

Has anyone else read this? Cerebus is one of my favorite comics of all time, but I didn't know what to expect from this one going in. It's not a standard narrative, really: the main text is the meta-commentary, more like Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics than anything else. The history of photorealism aspects were compelling, the art was mostly beautiful, and the humor a little hit and miss. But all things told, I ended up really enjoying this, and I'm looking forward to issue 2. The "cliffhanger" ending left me wanting to find out what happens next, despite my having litte preexisting interest in the history of the photorealist comic art style. I recommend it for anyone with more than a passing interest in Sim, comics history, or pretty drawings.
 
 
Dusto
22:56 / 27.05.08
For what it's worth, Sim would probably think of me as a Marxist/Feminist. I don't agree with his political views. I do think, however, that he has produced some of the most technically brilliant comics ever.
 
 
FinderWolf
01:14 / 28.05.08
Dusto, I did indeed check GLAMORPUSS out and basically shamelessly read it in the store (buying about $15 worth of comics per week has me resorting to Byrne-stealing more and more to keep the cost down, and my shop doesn't mind at all since I've made them lots of money over the past 10 years or so and continue to feed them cash on the books I do actually purchase *lol*), and my thoughts were very similar to yours. I just didn't have that extra love to shell out for it. But it was pretty fun and well-done. I applaud Sim doing something different like this. And not really a hint of his famous rants or anti-woman stuff in it, at least from my rapid skim/speed read/look.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
04:56 / 28.05.08
So the art was fantastic, then?
 
 
Mug Chum
05:22 / 28.05.08
Fap and static?

Ho-ho.
 
 
Dusto
13:40 / 29.05.08
So the art was fantastic, then?

Among other things, yes. The information about the Raymond school was also compellingly conveyed. The meta-story of Glamourpuss was hit and miss in terms of humor, but it was compelling in its way, and the funny parts were actually funny. But I'm not offering this as any justification for ignoring Sim's politics (which aren't overtly on display in Glamourpuss). Nor should such things be offered as "justification" when discussing Cerebus, where Sim's politics become an overt component of the storyline. Cerebus as a whole is a complex piece of art that can't simply be dismissed as the misogynist ravings.

Before issue 186 and the "Female Void/Male Light" dichotomy was posited, there was issue 111, where the "Male Void/Female Light" dichotomy was posited, and in issue 289/290 this version of the story again supplanted that offered in 186. Admittedly, the third time around Sim was saying "It's good to be a void, bad to be a light," but my point is that Cerebus is not reducible to a single worldview that needs excusing; the storyline continually kicks the legs out from under any all-encompassing worldview that comes along. Even the "Cerebexegis" of Latter Days (which I understand represents Sim's religious views fairly accurately) is comically deflated in The Last Day, in which the followers of the New Joanne base their doctrines on a close-misreading of the Book of Rick. Regardless of what outside knowledge of Sim's views tells us about his politics, in the comic itself all we have are characters whose views and actions we as readers are encouraged to interpret within the framework of our own worldviews; we're not compelled to agree with Cerebus, even in the first half of the series.

But even taking it as a given that the entire latter half of the series is colored by Sim's increasingly conservative politics (despite the fact that Reads is the only place where we get anything like an authorial voice telling the Reader The Way It Is, and even then it's technically the character of Viktor Reid whose views we're getting), that's still no reason to ignore it. Sim in recent years has claimed that his more hyperbolic and vitriolic remarks on the subject of gender politics have been in response to hyprbolic and vitriolic remarks from the other side (e.g. feminist theorists who assert things like "Sex is violence"). Whether or not this was his real motivation, I think he's right to point out that disagreement with something that we perceive as incorrect is one of the strongest ways to solidify our own views on what is correct; art that challenges our own way of thinking is more useful than art that merely reaffirms it.

So yes, in Cerebus, the art is fantastic. And so are the lettering and the layouts, both of which are hugely innovative on a fairly regular basis. And it's also laugh out loud funny, at times, and fairly moving, at times. In short, it's everything a comic should be. Glamourpuss isn't quite as strong as all that, but it's solid, unique, and compelling, and that's enough for me.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:10 / 29.05.08
Sim in recent years has claimed that his more hyperbolic and vitriolic remarks on the subject of gender politics have been in response to hyprbolic and vitriolic remarks from the other side (e.g. feminist theorists who assert things like "Sex is violence").

Which of the many feminist theorists with whose work you are familiar are you quoting there, chum?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:10 / 29.05.08
I thought Sim was quoting that, actually (or rather misquoting, or not quoting at all but creating a straw-woman).
 
 
Dusto
15:19 / 29.05.08
Yeah, that's a quote that Sim refers to. I don't recall where it comes from.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:28 / 29.05.08
Right. So would you allow for the possibility that Dave Sim might just possibly be misrepresenting the number or even substantial existence of feminist theorists who assert things like "Sex is violence", in order to make credulous busters think "well, I don't agree with him but I guess he's just the opposite extreme to Andreas Dwarkins"?
 
 
Dusto
19:07 / 29.05.08
I'm not defending his statement or saying it makes his politics any more palatable. I'm not even saying he's telling the truth about why he made his outrageous claims in the first place, though I'm sure he believes that was his reason now. The only valid point I see him making on this score is that, in solidifying our own beliefs, it can be useful to contend with expressions of views to which we are opposed.

For what it's worth, after looking it up, I see that I was conflating two of Sim's comments: one about feminist theorists, the other about Alan Moore's ex-wife and her then girlfriend, the two of whom were apparently the source of the quote.
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
22:39 / 29.05.08
Oh yes. The bus of sensical conversation had gone long before we got to the stop. The stop was in fact decommissioned 20 years ago.
They don't even make that model of bus any more.
...
There isn't even a road.
 
 
Dusto
00:22 / 30.05.08
What do you object to, specifically?
 
 
Mug Chum
01:15 / 30.05.08
This doesn't seem to have anything particularly desirable inside. Seriously. Even the art. Just gah.

And is that an attempt to put all that urgh! in a "persona" (/LOL it's a joke!) in the "aardvark vanaheim presents"?
 
 
Dusto
00:00 / 08.07.08
<

I like this. Issue two is out soon, as well.
 
 
Janean Patience
16:40 / 31.07.08
Judenhass: is a bit of a conundrum. Not in reading - there's nothing to puzzle out - but in conception. Why this? How does it meet Dave's criteria of being a comic that demonstrates what it's possible to create within the medium of comics when it's barely a comic? In terms of either form or content, who is this going to be news for?

It's an achievement in itself, I guess, to include so many images of the Holocaust and achieve so little in terms of emotional charge. The spread of the gates of a lager has an impact. Nothing else really did. Sim doesn't succeed in making a story out of Judenhass, though the idea of doing so is valid, IMHO. The fact that anti-Semitism and the camps are just links on the same chain isn't stressed enough in the popular idea of the Holocaust; it's too often treated as a uniquely Nazi evil rather than a genocide which waited at the end of a long, but predictable, road. But a collection of anti-Semitic quotes juxtaposed with photorealistic - and often hard to decipher - images from the Holocaust is a first-year film student's idea of bringing anti-Semitism and its historical virulence and persistence to life. It doesn't work; it's bloodless, passionless, frictionless. Complaints that Sim does nothing new with the medium might seem disrespectful to the subject. This was an opportunity, though, to use his mastery of the form to some effect, and it was an opportunity missed. In trying to craft something that would appeal to non-comics readers, he's dumbed down what made his work important. The actual comics vocabulary a non-comics reader would have, and which could have been extended here, has been ignored. It's an unspectacular failure.

None of Sim's politics or misogyny in here, though. The coda about the foundation of Israel is all you see of it, and it's not a stretch to see that as nothing more than an attempt at a happy ending.

Glamourpuss: is more and less. It's more readable, it's more fun, it's got some very nice art and it's interesting. On the other hand it's much smaller than anything Sim's done before. Obviously it's smaller than a depiction of the Holocaust in ambition and scope, but it's also smaller in terms of potential audience than even the Byzantine endgame of Cerebus. That was, at its best, a comic for people who wanted to see what could be done with the medium. This is a comic for people who are specifically interested in what Dave Sim wants to do with the medium. Which, as it turns out, is draw pretty girls and expound on the development and history of realism in comics.

Two issues in, it's entertaining at times and sort of dryly interesting at others. It can be funny, which isn't something comics readers tend to associate with Sim anymore. But though he managed to avoid the manias of his subdued schizophrenia in the first issue, it was too much to hope that he'd do so for long in a comic parodying women's magazines. The second issue has a great deal about the prescribing of anti-depressants to women and how they don't work, which in Sim's mind leads to the evils of psychiatry, daycare and how women hate to be mothers. I don't recall any of his misogyny sneaking in to this issue but it's impossible not to be aware that it's there, pulsing under the surface, and that it will inevitably break thru. Like listening to a racist who's not currently being racist, or sitting through the tearful emotional interlude of a vile, violent drunk, it's uncomfortable. I may buy the collected book when it's published in 2013 or whenever, but I don't think I'll buy the issues anymore.
 
  

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