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Robin Hobb 'The Tawny Man' Trilogy - SPOILERS

 
 
that
12:59 / 17.03.02
Anyone else read it yet? I was given this for Christmas, and tried really hard to save it until after exams, but I gave in and read it over a couple of days this week. Thank goodness it does justice to its predecessor, the Farseer trilogy, my favourite fantasy books ever (Robin Hobb is waaaaaay better than Tolkien, for instance, and her books soooo deserve to become classics), and some of my favourite books ever too. I just adore Robin Hobb's stuff, and think everyone should give it a go, 'cause it's wonderful.

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But Nighteyes... waaaaaaah! I cried on the train over that... I loved that wolf...

And I wonder if she's going to make the Fool explictly queer, and vocal about his love for Fitz... seeing as she's been skirting the edges of it for two books...
 
 
Trijhaos
17:39 / 17.03.02
I loved the farseer trilogy and this book was a wonderful continuation of it. I never read the liveship trilogy though. Robin Hobb writes wonderfully, you actually believe that Fitz has aged 18(?) years. It looks to me that Fitz is being groomed to become the skill/wit master or maybe Chade's replacement.

I hope Fitz doesn't bond again, it would seem sacriligous after the deep bond he shared with Nighteyes.

Lord Golden/Fool has always seemed a little queer to me. I do hope that Fool expresses his love for Fitz, I think he's the only one who truly loves Fitz. Sure, the other characters express their love or at least affection for him, but they all want something from him and they don't tell him what it is. The Fool has always been straight forward with Fitz.
 
 
that
19:40 / 17.03.02
In his own, cryptic way, yes...

I hope Fitz does bond again, actually - I think Nighteyes would not have expected him to remain alone forever. He won't want to for a while though... I'll miss that wolf.
I wish I had the Wit...sooooo much better than the Skill.

I hope his horse tells him her real name eventually too.

Dutiful has the makings of a really strong character, I think.

You should read the Liveship trilogy, Trijhaos - the third book is a little weak, IMHO, but it is still definitely worth reading. Her worlds are so rich and vibrant and complex. I wish they'd make films from the Farseer books though. They couldn't touch the books, obviously, but I'd love to see them nonetheless... I just adore her books. I don't usually get so effusive...but, jeez...Robin Hobb is *great*. If I could get everyone to read something, it'd be something of hers...but I guess that is for another thread. She just deserves to be way more popular and highly praised.
 
 
Trijhaos
19:56 / 17.03.02
If Fitz does bond again, I'm thinking there's 3 choices. Another canine, a cat, or MyBlack. Even if Fitz does bond again though, I don't think the bond will be as deep as the one he had with Nighteyes.

Yes, Dutiful does see like he has the makings of a strong character. I hope he finds out that he's related to Fitz in some way. I think the uncle/cousin route would be better than "father".

While I think a deeper relationship between Lord Golden and Fitz would be nice, I hope he settles down with Jinna. I mean this woman knows he has the wit, but she doesn't treat him like some aberration of nature, its a part of him, the way her magic is a part of her.

I may give the liveship traders another chance. I tried reading the first book, but couldn't get past the first two chapters. It just didn't grab me the way the farseer trilogy did.
 
 
that
09:39 / 18.03.02
I'd love Lord Golden/The Fool and Fitz to settle down and live happily ever after - but it's never gonna happen. Jinna is definitely a possible match for Fitz, but I am not sure he's the type for a long term romantic relationship, ultimately.

I think Dutiful may well find out that he is the child of Fitz's body, but will still accept that Verity is his 'true father'. Interesting to see what happens with Nettle, too. I am almost seeing an X-Men style academy for Witted/Skilled children, with Fitz as the Xavier figure.

Yes, I think you're right about Fitz's future bond animals - I wonder if a horse would be inclined to bond with a predator, though? Hmm. Dutiful's cat calling Fitz a 'stupid brother-to-a-dog' made me laugh...

Interested to see what happens when those feathers are placed in The Fool's crown, too.

I'd give the Liveship books another go - Althea is incredibly annoying, but Kennit is a fantastic character, and there are some interesting cross-overs with the Farseer books that I won't go into in case I spoil it for you.
 
 
Trijhaos
09:39 / 18.03.02
I don't know about him not being the long-term relationship type, I mean he was ready to throw everything away to be with Molly. He would have defied his king for her. I guess one could say that was simply because she was his first love.

If Nettle ends up dealing with Fitz, then Burrich and Molly are going to find out that Fitz is alive. Now, that's going to make for some really emotional scenes.

I think the x-men style school thing would be interesting, but there'd probably be more wit students than skill students. I mean most of the coterie was killed in the last trilogy so the skill isn't exactly common. I don't see why though, the wit and skill are two sides of the same coin. The wit deals with the communication of humans/animals and the skill is human/human communication. I think if one has the wit then one should have at least a bit of the skill.

I think a horse could possibly bond to a predator. Yes, Fitz is a predator, but he's mellowed out some. I just don't see Fitz running around in a haze killing things with an axe anymore. There's more to MyBlack than is first apparent.

Anyway a horse as a companion animal would be interesting because predators have become cliche.

All of Fennel's comments made me laugh.

The Rooster Crown. I was a bit disappointed when it seemed that nothing would be done with it in the first book, but you do need a hook to keep readers coming back I suppose.

The thing that pissed me off about this book was I knew Nighteyes died before I read it. I had gone to Robin Hobb's official page and she had a message board that had spoilers posted on it. Now the spoilers were marked, but I'm one of those people who when they see the word 'spoiler' go "oooh...it must be really neat if its a spoiler" so I read it. Oops. It gave away the death of one of the main characters.
 
 
that
09:39 / 18.03.02
Yeah...I read on amazon.co.uk that one of the main characters died, and guessed it would be Chade...until I had the book in my possession, when it quickly became obvious that poor Night-eyes was on his last legs.

Yes, there is definitely more to MyBlack than is first apparent. I just wonder if she'd bond with someone who'd bonded with a predator before... but he's never seemed to have a problem with prey animals just because he *smelled* of wolf, so maybe its a similar thing. MyBlack is something of an enigma, and we're definitely going to find out more about her in the next book...

I dunno, I think at least weak Skill aptitude is probably still quite common in the Six Duchies...the Wit and the Skill do seem to be closely connected, and to play off each other in Fitz and Dutiful. I doubt the school thing will happen per se, but I think the Wit will, eventually, start to become a respected talent.

What I don't get is why more people are not raving about Robin Hobb? You and I should be battling for shoulder room in this thread, but we are not... I have not worked that one out yet.
 
 
Trijhaos
09:39 / 18.03.02
Awhile back I read some theories that MyBlack was Nettle's bond beast and Burrich sent her away from Nettle with Lord Golden so the bond would weaken and eventually break. Much like the bond between Fitz and Nosy at the beginning of Assassin's Apprentice.

I could see something along the lines of a Wit coterie happening. Something big is going to have to happen for the Wit to become respected.

I don't know why more people aren't raving about Robin Hobb. She doesn't use the typical quest template for her books, The characters seem like they could be three dimensional, and most of all her "hero" characters are not gods. They get hurt and some come close to dying more than once.

I'm sure there are some people here who clicked on this thread out of curiosity. If you're out there, go read Robin Hobb's books, you'll be glad you did.
 
 
that
10:37 / 18.03.02
Too right, Trijhaos!
 
 
that
08:36 / 17.06.03
Heed this well: SPOILERS FOR BOOK TWO OF THE TAWNY MAN: THE GOLDEN FOOL
SPOILERS FOR THE LIVESHIP TRILOGY (basically, don't read this unless you've read all the books or you want not to be surprised)






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The Fool is Amber? Dear Christ. That came as a veee-eeee-rryy big surprise. To tell the truth, I thought Amber was going to turn out to be a rival to the Fool. Am I just thick? I suppose the signs were there with the Crown and all, but it's a long time between books to keep this stuff straight. Also I never liked Amber much, and I love the Fool. Having it that he had carved Paragon as Fitz was a lovely touch though, I thought. Pity Fitz spent the whole book generally behaving like a complete fuckwit. The poor Fool.

I thought this was the weakest so far, it seemed to be mostly putting pieces in place for the next book, not really developing characters significantly etc... Trijhaos, have you read it?
 
 
Mr Messy
15:40 / 17.06.03
Coming Up

Oh - didn't peak at the spoilers there, coz haven't read the latest book yet, but wanted to join in coz loved all Robin's others.

Vague spoilers for Liveship books









Robin Hobb's skill at creating 3 dimensional characters and evoking emotion are great indeed. One image that has stayed with me was when the ship (forget her name) was stocked up with slaves. She hugs herself very tightly and rocks in agitation. She can feel their misery.
Amazing. I could feel her misery after reading that passage.

Must go out and purchase newest book soon. Is it out in paperback yet? In the UK that is.
 
 
that
16:15 / 17.06.03
Yup. I'm fucked off with Amazon because they sent me the hardback even though I waited especially so I could bloody get the paperback. Sigh. All that wait for nowt. The next book is out in Oct, apparently.
 
 
Trijhaos
16:25 / 17.06.03
The ship you're thinking of is Vivacia (I believe that's the proper spelling). I kind of thought the ships were more interesting than some of the other characters. They seemed more alive.

I had a feeling Amber and the Fool were connected after reading the first two Liveship Traders books. After reading Ship of Destiny and Golden Fool , I knew I was right.

I hope Fitz is able to work through his feelings about the Fool in the next book. Why does he feel the need to set boundaries on his love for the Fool? "Oh no, a man loves me!". He needs to get over that. I'd feel honored if someone loved me unconditionally.

I felt the book could have been a bit longer. I mean, Burrich's son (Quick is it?) is just dropped on in. I would have liked to have found out a bit more about him before the book ended. I just don't see how everything's going to conclude in a satisfying manner in one more book.
 
 
that
16:55 / 17.06.03
Connected, yes - in the sense of being White Prophets or a variant thereof...but I didn't think they were the same person for a moment. Duh. Actually, I thought Amber was a lesbian, and that it was a characteristic of White Prophets (I realise that in theory Amber couldn't have been yet another White Prophet if she had been just herself, but I did think she was a variant on the theme) etc. to prefer their own gender...

Yes, the ship is Vivacia, and Burrich's son is Swift (comes to call himself Swift Witted).

I know what you mean about feeling like she might need a couple of books to tie up loose ends satisfyingly - I'd guess the next book (Fool's Fate) will be pretty huge. I was somewhat surprised Myblack was such a nonentity, still... hardly any conversations with animals in the whole thing...

I guess what bothered me about this book was that it tied up so few loose ends itself and instigated so many, and because, unlike the other books, it was not an adventure per se in and of itself, more a preparation for the third book. And some of the characters seemed to lack crispness (but that might have been me just not really liking any of them).

I thought it was vaguely unlike Fitz to have such a freak-out about the Fool's feelings (which he must have known about all along, as is indicated)...and telling him he should try and be normal, or words to that effect...what? The Fool has never been 'normal', but neither has Fitz - he should've known better, dammit. I thought it was deeply sad to see that, because I always thought the relationship between Fitz and the Fool was lovely. I do get that stuff can't be fluffy fluffy all the time, obviously, but it was still surprisingly painful. I was also surprised by Fitz's lack of curiosity about why the Fool has been so many different people in his life...

My thoughts on this are fuzzy, and I will warn everyone now that I am talking about this in relation to these characters and probably not saying this very well - I swear I am more educated and sensitive about (trans)gender politics than I sound here. But for a while I was truly disturbed that RH was going to make the Fool 'really' female and thus pretty much sidestep the queer aspect...and then I changed my mind again and decided she wasn't going to go that route. As it now stands, I remain unsure about what exactly she's going to do, though the force of opinion on the Robin Hobb messageboards is that the Fool is at least physically female or equivalent, and it is true that there are plenty of indications that this is so.

I think the Fool transcends boundaries to a large extent...but I think on some level it would be a cop-out to make his feelings for Fitz so easily heterosexual (and it will do that, if the Fool is physically 'female', whatever hir feelings are about her real gender). I suppose I should consider that gender fluidity is a good thing to be dealing with in fantasy novels, but it seems less meaningful to me because in fantasy-land (*not* real life), non-standard gender is that much easier to deal with than homosexuality is... people expect genderfuck in fantasy novels, but homosexuality still makes those same people uncomfortable (there's stuff here about the Othering of the Fool, and whether or not he is actually human in the strictest sense - and if not his gender fluidity is even easier to write off. i'm not sure that the same would be true of his 'homosexuality'). It makes Fitz uncomfortable, dammit. It would be such a cop out to give both Fitz and the readers that easy escape route - giving the Fool breasts and a vagina would be the biggest fuck-up since Anakin Fucking Skywalker in episode 2. It would render the whole thing oddly mundane, and would fuck with the dynamic in really unfortunate ways. This is my gut reaction, based only flimsily on real sense or probably politics, and I am prepared to be proven wrong - but that's how I feel atm...

If that makes any fucking sense at all...
 
 
that
17:00 / 17.06.03
Also surprised that Fitz is so casually (so far) letting Chade have his way about the Fool's exclusion from the trip to Aslevjal (sp?). Also the book had been pretty terribly proof-read - there were a couple of partial conjoined sentences that made no sense, and at least one other sentence that just went nowhere, as well as some minor fuck-ups. And Fitz said 'okay', which jars for me within a fantasy novel...
 
 
Mr Messy
10:45 / 18.06.03
Ok, I'm going to have to go out and buy this book now so I can join in with the conversation, and not be too scared about reading spoilers in this thread. Back soon I hope.
 
 
that
11:06 / 18.06.03
Yes, do! There are too few people here willing to talk about Robin Hobb (...and the semi-official messageboards make me nervous).
 
 
that
12:42 / 18.06.03
More SPOILERS for SHIP OF DESTINY













Having just flicked back through 'Ship of Destiny'...duh. It should have been so obvious - Fitz's broken nose on Paragon's face, his axe in Paragon's hand. And that comment Paragon makes to Amber about how 'you'd have to be a fool to think you could change the whole world' and she says something along the lines of 'you're more right than you know'. Double duh. I really am slow. I suppose I wouldn't have wanted to believe it even if I had guessed...I think on some level it probably occurred to me, but I was so invested in the Fool's maleness... still am, still think it'll be a tragedy if he turns out to be female. Sigh.
 
 
Trijhaos
14:49 / 18.06.03
It would be horrible if the Fool turned out female. Either make him male or keep it ambiguous. Oh sure both Jek and Starling refer to the Fool as a 'she', but there's logical explanations for both, one would think. Jek encountered the Fool as Amber first, thus in her eyes Amber/Fool is female. Starling...well I'm not sure why Starling refers to the Fool as female in Assassin's Quest. It could be because she's not comfortable with the fact that a man is in love with another man.

I hope the Fool's male. There don't seem to be many gay fantasy characters and that's a real shame. The only one I can think of offhand is Vanyel, but he's a horrible example as Mercedes Lackey threw his sexuality at the reader every couple of pages. "Don't forget, Vanyel doesn't like women because he's gaaaaayyyy ."

I didn't notice too many problems with the book's proof-reading, but I have a tendency to gloss over proof-reading mistakes which may explain that a bit.
 
 
that
15:14 / 18.06.03
I'm very anal...I can't help noticing these things.

I recently was informed that there are actually quite a few gay fantasy characters...written by Ellen Kushner/Delia Sherman, Vincent Virga, Jim Grimsley, various others. Will have to read more to see how well it tends to be done and how it relates to the fantasy genre in general. As for mainstream fantasy, there are Finn and Maggrig in 'Quest For Lost Heroes', and then pretty much everyone in Gemmell's ancient Greek books...but I can't think of any others off-hand. I always really liked the way the Fool's sexuality was dealt with... I'm really glad someone agrees with me that it would be A Bad Thing to make him female.
 
  
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